BG1 and PST. How do they compare?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:51 am

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
When I played PS:T I actually got misty-eyed toward the end... I found it to be immersive in a way that BG1 isn't.

Still, I find myself gravitating toward certain NPC's in BG1. I find it very hard to remove certain characters for reasons that are nor purely tactical. I refuse to let go of Imoen...

I've tried to reform my group in a small area to make it easier to come back and sweet-talk a character I may need. Bit when I did that with Jaheira in the Friendly Arm Inn she just took off. Now I have no idea where the hell she got off to. Same with Branwen in the Jovial Juggler. She made some dismissive remark and walked out the front door.

Come to think of it, one area where Torment could be improved would be to add a few more random interactions between party members. In BG1 and BG2, that was one of the main ways we got to "know" the NPCs. Fortunately, in Torment, there's so much dialogue, and the voice acting is so incredible, the relative lack of random interactions isn't all that noticeable. The characters seem real, and I too experienced genuine feelings for them. I didn't just cry towards the end of the game; I was also enraged.

I can't play BG1/BG2/ToB without Imoen, either.

I actually recruited every NPC in the game one time. When I dismissed them to make room for others, I left them standing in front of the Friendly Arm Inn in sort of an NPC convention.

Occasionally, NPCs would run off as if they were never coming back, but later, they reappeared where I dismissed them. Kivan was especially cranky because he couldn't wait to get hold of Tazok. Coran wanted to go hunt wyverns. Jaheira and Khalid couldn't wait any longer to get to Nashkel. It was strange. Apparently, some timers were malfunctioning.

Platter · Post by **Platter** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 12:28 pm

fable you're PM box is full...

ETAKO TUMANO · Post by **ETAKO TUMANO** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 3:03 pm

Zut, alors! Forgot all about Nashkel! I bet you're right. NPC's will continue to pursue their own agendas when you dismiss them. I bet she's down in that town right now. It' still daylight. Maybe I can make it before sundown if the group moves fast enough.

Ooh. Too immersive. A great part of the third volume of Lord of the Rings is dedicated to the history of all that underlies Tolkien's tale. The scope of the story is far greater than what is set forth in the trilogy. PS:T hints at these distant things, and I think a good production team could pull threads out of the cloth of the game proper.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 6:22 pm

@VonDondu, you make good points and remind me to avoid making sweeping statements covering games I haven't played. However, I am still a little fuzzy with regard to the origins of the walkthrough discussion...

VonDondu said
"Sarevok is waiting for us behind that door, but wait! we need to go to Durlag's Tower first and get some treasure!"

I agree, but the case is (slightly) different if you install the exansion & start a new game rather than add it to the end of one in progress. In the former case, I do agree with you that

Durlag's Tower [doesn't] really fit into the main plot. Like the other quests in BG, such as Ulcaster or Firewine, the new areas were just sitting out there, ready for adventurers to come along, but they had nothing to do with the main plot,
VonDondu said.

While this is a good point, most of BG (with respect to area) had nothing to do with the main plot, including the NPC quests. However, the protagonist had reason to believe Sarevok to be a formidable enimy, and had good reason to scour the land for every advantage availible. In addition, winding the main plot's storyline through more quests, NPCs, areas, et cetera, would make it too convulted and cumbersome for many.

I notice you do mention IwD or its expansions, VonDondu. I wonder if this is because you wish not to speak of games you have not played (like I should, perhaps), or because it is simply "off topic?"

VonDondu said
I think [the developers] originally planned for a third installment [of the BG games], which ended up being released as an expansion instead.

The release of Ascension and the other unofficial additions to ToB by David the Developer (forgot his other name) also points to ToB being BGIII. While it matters not now, I think ToB would have been much better as its own game rather than an expansion. It would have been a great opportunity for the developers to bring back the Large Outdoor Areas from BG. Of course they would be optional but still give players reason to explore them, as was so wonderfully done in BG (IMHO). Add IwDII-style interface, 3rd Ed. rules, and subraces (leaving out the EXP-balance system), and you have the makings of an excellent, stand-alone game (still, IMHO). I suppose there would be problems with the starting level and importing process.

I think an expansion should give players as more reason to start a new game than to continue an existing one. This would add replay value (obviously), as well as give developers the opportunity to plant hints into the existing game leading the player into new areas. (to paraphrase fable) Excellent examples of this exist in the mod community, proving the viability of the concept. And of course expansions should allow free travel to and fro whenever possible.

One reason I'm all about free travel is because of BGII: ToB, where I became separated from certain items after doing the WK relatively early-on. I belive vetrans of that game will know of what I speak.

Finally, @ETAKO TUMANO, could you please translate "Zut, alors!" for me? I remeber my high school French teacher saying it a lot, but I didn't retain much from that class, and its bothering me!

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Nov 15, 2002 9:34 pm

Originally posted by Skooter327
@VonDondu, you make good points and remind me to avoid making sweeping statements covering games I haven't played. However, I am still a little fuzzy with regard to the origins of the walkthrough discussion...

I'm a little fuzzy about it now, myself.

Essentially, all I meant is that since Torment doesn't have an expansion, the best way to enrich the experience is to draw it out and enjoy every bit of it. I was arguing that walkthroughs can interfere with that goal. I wasn't referring to the way that you in particular use a walkthrough, where all you use it for is to look up a few spoilers and hints when you get stuck. Some people, on the other hand, like to to read a script or watch a crummy bootleg copy of a movie on the internet before they see it in a movie theater, and I'm just not that type of person. (You know I'm referring to Attack of the Clones, right?) I feel the same way about games and walkthroughs.

Originally posted by Skooter327
Most of BG (with respect to area) had nothing to do with the main plot, including the NPC quests. However, the protagonist had reason to believe Sarevok to be a formidable enimy, and had good reason to scour the land for every advantage availible. In addition, winding the main plot's storyline through more quests, NPCs, areas, et cetera, would make it too convoluted and cumbersome for many.

I hesitate to criticize BG, but I suppose it would be taken as implicit criticism of BG if I pointed out that Torment really shines when it comes to "winding the main plot's storyline through more quests, NPCs, areas, et cetera." The integration is simply phenomenal. I've seen scripts and dialogue files, and I know how complex they can be. Other than a few spelling errors here and there and two linking errors that I know of, the editing in Torment is superb. Perhaps that does make it "convoluted and cumbersome" to some players, but that's why BG has a different kind of appeal.

Originally posted by Skooter327
I notice you [don't] mention IwD or its expansions, VonDondu. I wonder if this is because you wish not to speak of games you have not played (like I should, perhaps), or because it is simply "off topic?"

I haven't played IWD or HoW or TotLM. The main reason why I haven't mentioned them isn't so much discipline on my part, it's just that I can't think of anything relevant to say about them due to my lack of familiarity. I have been known to talk about things I know nothing about, though.

ETAKO TUMANO · Post by **ETAKO TUMANO** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:35 am

Please excuse the momentary diversion. I'd always translated the phrase "Zut, alors" as an expression of mildly surprised exasperation meaning "Ah, well. Let's go on." All too often I use foreign-language phrases out of sheer fancy, with little regard for the exact meaning. So I'm sure more fluent French speakers may contest my loose translation of the phrase.

More on point, I'm really frustrated with how difficult it is to advance my mage. I'm holding onto Dynaheir, in large part because I want to keep Minsc in the group. My cleric is Branwen, who only recently acquired the ability to cast Raise Dead. My thief is Imoen, who at level 4 is proving quite effective at disarming traps and picking locks. Finally I've recruited Kivan for his archery skills.

After going through PS:T as a fighter and Mage I've become used to getting huge chunks of exp's quickly and leveling-up rapidly. Playing BG1 I've had to slow down my advancement expectations and work with far more limited spell-casting powers, at least until I actually get into the city itself

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:28 am

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
I'm really frustrated with how difficult it is to advance my mage...

After going through PS:T as a fighter and Mage I've become used to getting huge chunks of exp's quickly and leveling-up rapidly. Playing BG1 I've had to slow down my advancement expectations and work with far more limited spell-casting powers...

And to think that some people have complained that it takes too long to acquire spellcasting abilities in Torment. (Or at least, they've remarked that it's uncertain when and if you'll ever get spells.)

I think the problem is, you're under the impression that BG1 and PS:T are very similar games. They might be in some respects, but really, they're quite different.

BG1 was designed to where you could beat it with a 7th to 8th level party. The total amount of experience your party can earn is somewhere around a million points. You can divide that number by six, or you might consider trimming the size of your party. The last time I played, I had a Cleric/Ranger in my party and Imoen, who was dualled to a Conjurer. (I removed the experience cap.) I was pleased with their progress. When Imoen dualled to a Conjurer, I recruited Coran temporarily when I needed a Thief. (Find Traps and Knock are not sufficient in a place like Durlag's Tower.) Even when they were splitting experience three ways, they still advanced fairly quickly--not by Torment's standards, but by BG1's standards, which is really the only thing that's relevant here.

Look at it this way. When I first started playing Hover, the first-person hovercraft game that came bundled with Windows 95, I was frustrated because I couldn't find a rocket launcher, which was one of my favorite items in Doom. (If you're familiar with Hover, you know why that's funny.) It just goes to show that my expectations were the problem.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:47 pm

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
I'm holding onto Dynaheir, in large part because I want to keep Minsc in the group.

Did you know you can dump one of a pair of NPCs (like Dynaheir & Minsc) without killing or pissing them off? Simply find an empty house somewhere and send the reject party member inside alone. Then remove her from the party normally. She won't be able to come talk to the protagonist, so her partner isn't prompted to get angry either. If you ever decide you want her back, just enter the house and the dialoge will finally trigger from when you dumped her, giving you the option to keep her.

By the by, I just broke down and bought Ps:T tonight. It seems Wal-Mart only felt it was worth $9.96 to them, so we arranged a deal and I took it off of their hands. They even threw in Soulbringer with it as well; this was good, seeing as they share a package. I've never heard of the latter game (is it worth playing?), but now the only thing that stands between me and Ps:T is an evil stack of Physics homework,

! I will share my thoughts after I make some headway into the former.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:49 pm

I just bought PS:T as well, though I had to order it online... Walmart was out of stock. Is there truth to the rumor that Interplay is discontinuing this game?

BTW: The prime reason I bought the game was VonDondu's comments on this thread, so this really is on topic... sort of...

ETAKO TUMANO · Post by **ETAKO TUMANO** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:47 am

I hope the both of you enjoy PS:T. I've never heard of Soulbringer, and I curious why it was bundled with Planescape. Is it by the same studio?

One time I left Jaheira at the Inn in Nashkel. I wanted to keep Khalid in the group when I went to the Gnoll Stronghold to look for Dynaheir. I stepped out of the Inn with the rest of the group, and the two of them split up with no problem. Trouble is, when I returned from the Gnoll Stronghold with Dynaheir I went to Nashkel to rest up. As soon as the team stepped into the Inn Jaheira came up to me all in a huff, and told me that if I didn't value her help she would just go elsewhere. She then shouted at Khalid to follow her and took off with him. I've got to admit I was a little stunned. Primarily because I felt stupid for forgetting I'd left Jaheira at the Inn. But I didn't even have the chance to engage her in a dialogue.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:19 am

I'm hope the two of you enjoy PS:T.

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
I've never heard of Soulbringer, and I curious why it was bundled with Planescape. Is it by the same studio?

Soulbringer was published by Interplay in the United States. Black Isle Studios wasn't involved with it. It's an RPG, but it's not an Infinity Engine game. It was made by Infogrames, which appears to be a French company who also published the Unreal series, lots of console games, and lots of other games. I guess they bundled Souldbringer with Torment for marketing purposes. "Two games for the price of one," and a bargain price, to boot. You can read about Soulbringer at http://www.soulbringer-game.com/interna ... t_news.htm . I haven't played it yet, and I don't know if I'll ever have time, since I still want to try the IWD series, NWN, and other games that have been recommended, such as Fallout, Homeworld, Betrayal at Krondor, etc. as well as some others I've been wanting to try.

From what I've read, Torment was originally released on 4 discs, and you could download a couple of patches for it. The "bargain" version that is bundled with Soulbringer comes on 2 discs. (They used a better compression technique, presumably the same one that BG2 uses.) It's the latest (and probably last) version, so you don't need a patch. All it comes with are the discs, the jewelcase, and the box--no manual, maps, ads, or anything else, although there's a manual in .PDF format on the first disc.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:55 am

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
As soon as the team stepped into the Inn Jaheira came up to me all in a huff, and told me that if I didn't value her help she would just go elsewhere.

The trick is to leave her in a building you have no reason to enter. Besides, you should know better than to ditch Jaheria!

Originally posted by VonDondu
The "bargain" version that is bundled with Soulbringer comes on 2 discs.... All it comes with are the discs, the jewelcase, and the box--no manual, maps, ads, or anything else, although there's a manual in .PDF format on the first disc.

I was a little disappointed upon opening Ps:T. After BG & TotSC's 6 discs though, maybe squashing Ps:T onto 2 wasn't such a bad idea. And the Ps:T/Soulbringer "box" is pretty cool.

As for playing Ps:T, its refreshing to start a game and not have to go in a warehouse or cellar and kill rats, beetles, or goblins right off the bat.

Of course there were still the "go forth, and fetch me this" quests. I felt kind of sorry for "The Post," however.

ETAKO TUMANO · Post by **ETAKO TUMANO** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:03 pm

I fully agree that dumping Jaheira was not a very wise thing to do. I'm having serious second thoughts about Dynaheir, even though I originally needed her healing powers a lot. Ah, well. You pays your nickel and takes your chances.

The link to the Soulbringer site made the game look really intriguing. I'm tempted to download the demo and give it a try.

Wonder if the Post pays taxes.

By the by, I've only recently started using this board, and it's far morre elaborate than many I'm familiar with. How do you quote material from another posting? I'd like to know how to show what it is I'm responding to. I can see the QUOTE button, but when I used it, it seemed I was prompted for an HTML address.

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:39 pm

Originally posted by ETAKO TUMANO
How do you quote material from another posting? I'd like to know how to show what it is I'm responding to.

The best way to do it, IMHO, is to click the "Quote" button on the bottom right corner of the post you'd like to quote, and before clicking "Post Reply." After a while, you become accustomed to the required format and can just type it in when needed.

I doubt the Post has to pay taxes, because he probably doesn't get paid & buys nothing. Hopefully, government records list him as deceased, but in this country, you never know!

At least the Post isn't as annoying as that Noober idiot in Nashkel!

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Wed Nov 20, 2002 12:31 am

Nobody's as annoying as Noober... except maybe Neeber...

And I doubt anybody in Sigil pays taxes...

Skooter327 · Post by **Skooter327** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:11 pm

While I'm not very far into Ps:T yet, and I belive this has been said already, here goes anyway. My favorite simple thing done in Ps:T is the descriptions of people you get when you initiate dialoge. They read like character descriptions in a novel would, and give the game a much more "personal" feel. Plus, you still have the option to leave if you decide against talking to the NPC.

Question: Is there any reason not to always run in Ps:T?
One of the hardest things about going back to BG is the (lack of) walking speed the characters have.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:20 am

Originally posted by Skooter327
Question: Is there any reason not to always run in Ps:T?

Running isn't a good idea if you're looking for traps. Other than that, there's only one particular situation where running can defeat your purpose. As a lot of clues indicate, there's a spy inside the Mortuary. He's actually a human disguised as a zombie. If you talk to him, he can disguise the Nameless One as a zombie, too. (It's hysterical.) Running will ruin the disguise, so you don't want to run if you want to keep it.