Loner72 is staying the heck out of these discussionsOriginally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Yes, Jesus does, according to Mark, use "Abba." Abba occurs elsewhere in the bible. Does that mean God is automatically limited to an anthopomorphic male form? There are Christian sects that believe this, but I'm not inclined to think that was the intent of the bible. (Loner72 should be answering this, since I'm neither a Christian, nor a Lawful Good character.)</STRONG>
I sorta wish I'd been smart enough to do that.Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Loner72 is staying the heck out of these discussions
This saddens me greatly. I would have loved to hear the perspective of our great student of theological history. Oh, well. I shall go and re-read Theological Quandaries to satisfy my desire for a dose of Loner.Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Loner72 is staying the heck out of these discussions
Bullsh*t. Where do people get this crap from? Why don't you talk to a Catholic who really believes in and practices the faith, instead of relying on the media to tell you what we're all about?Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>Catholicism is more Religion than true Christianity. They have all these religious rules of do this, don't do this, do that, dno't do that, don't do him, don't do her, etc.</STRONG>
Whoa, loner, calm down and quit making assumptions. First, I don't rely on the media to tell me anything. The only TV I even watch anymore are reruns of M*A*S*H during lunch. I have talked to catholics to find out what they believe. I have a friend in Minesota who is catholic and I have asked her numerous time to explain catholic beliefs. I bought my car from a catholic who has been a friend of my family since the late '80s. I was also refering to traditionalists with my statement, just as I refered to traditionalists Southern baptists. Just like the younger generation of SBs, Catholics are getting more away from the worksbased into the faithbased.Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Bullsh*t. Where do people get this crap from? Why don't you talk to a Catholic who really believes in and practices the faith, instead of relying on the media to tell you what we're all about?
It is true, though, that Catholic religion is/was worksbased and iconic. I don't know how far away from that they've currently gotten, but it is still there to some extent, I know.Unknown~
<STRONG>More and more people are getting away from church and closer to God.</STRONG>
Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>It is true, though, that Catholic religion is/was worksbased and iconic. I don't know how far away from that they've currently gotten, but it is still there to some extent, I know.
My point was that religion is more worksbased while true Christianity is faithbased.
I did not mean to offend you with my statement about Catholicism. I apologize for that. I also expect an apology from you for your automatic assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about and your extreme overreaction. *points to the 8 "mad" smilies*</STRONG>
*nods* I accept you apology, loner.Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>@SS: The only thing I will apologize for is my assumption about the media. I should not have made that statement without knowing where you got your information. I apologize for nothing else.</STRONG>
I don't exactly agree, Eminem. Jesus was Jewish, yes; but God has no race. God seperated man into different "races" at the Tower of Babel(sp?).Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>Hey, I just reallized the original question of this thread was the gender AND race of God. So much focus has been devoted to gender that nationality/ethnic background has largely been ignored. Does God even have a race? Well, yes and no. God the Father (the OT tetragrammaton YHWH, or Yahweh) has no race, being a Spirit being, but God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, was distinctly Jewish, born and bred in 1st century Palestine. Using the same reasoning above, here is how I (and the Bible)look at it:
1. Jesus = God
2. Jesus = Jew
3. Therfore, God = Jew
This may be surprising to some, but the Biblcal record is clear. I believe Christian history as it pertains to the Jewish race would be a whole lot more positive had Christians through the centuries understood better the ethnic background of their God and Savior - Rabbi Jeshua bar-Joseph (Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth).</STRONG>
To reiterate: God the Father has no race, but God the Son (Jesus of Nazareth) was and IS Jewish to this very day, because the physical resurrection body he took on after rising from the dead is eternal, unchangeable, and according to John 20 apparently no different in appearance from the 33 year old "incarnation" body that suffered death on the cross.Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>I don't exactly agree, Eminem. Jesus was Jewish, yes; but God has no race. God seperated man into different "races" at the Tower of Babel(sp?).</STRONG>
I agree with your reitteration, except for one thing. Jesus' resurrected body did not "look no different than his 33 year old body," it was/is his 33 year old body.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>To reiterate: God the Father has no race, but God the Son (Jesus of Nazareth) was and IS Jewish to this very day, because the physical resurrection body he took on after rising from the dead is eternal, unchangeable, and according to John 20 apparently no different in appearance from the 33 year old "incarnation" body that suffered death on the cross.</STRONG>
And those people, living in the different parts of the world, became the races we have now.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>To clarify: A common, universal language unified the people at Babel and enabled them to construct a tower that would reach the heavens. God confused the language (not the races), so that building would stop, and the groups of people who shared the same language went their separate ways.</STRONG>
They didn't recognize him because, though they thought they believed him, they did not truly believed until they saw him and realized who he was.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>Well, I think his ressurection body looked slightly different in appearance because the people to whom he appeared after he rose from the dead failed to recognize who he was until he spoke - Mary Magdalen at the tomb, the two disciples at Emmaus, and even some of his apostles (Matthew 28:18) had doubts about his identity.</STRONG>
I agree, it is refreshing to talk to other Christians and know you're not the only one in the place. However, I must warn you that there are times when, on some contraversial topics, that we might strongly disagree. The liberals call me fundamental/conservative and the fundamental/conservatives call me a liberal and the moderates haven't the floggiest idea what I am. *though it probably sounds funny, is being very much serious about that* This comes from the fact that many of my beliefs are...unconventional. When it comes to the important thing(belief in Jesus Christ as our Savior), I believe the same as all true Christians(*is not leaving out catholics, merely the members of all denominations that are just "playing church"*); but when it comes to other things...well, my beliefs tend to get me in trouble with other Christians.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>BTW Saturn, it is SO refreshing talking to another Christian on this forum and not have to defend my opinions on controversial matters. For a while I thought I was the only one. Welcome back from wherever you've been. It's great to have you spamming with the rest of us.</STRONG>
The important thing is that Jesus was human. Not that he was male or that he was Jewish. Christ as head of humanity embraces all races and both genders in his being. This is "how" he is "able" to save the whole human race. This is why belief in Christ is able to transcend all cultural bounds. If the important thing was that God the Son was Jewish and male, then women and non-Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. Cf. Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This would not be logically possible if the issue was Christ's race and/or gender.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>God the Father (the OT tetragrammaton YHWH, or Yahweh) has no race, being a Spirit being, but God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, was distinctly Jewish, born and bred in 1st century Palestine. Using the same reasoning above, here is how I (and the Bible)look at it:
1. Jesus = God
2. Jesus = Jew
3. Therfore, God = Jew
This may be surprising to some, but the Biblcal record is clear.</STRONG>
But in several other passages of the NT (particularly John and Acts), the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to as "he," not "it."Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>Interestingly enough, BTW, the Greek word for spirit is pneuma, the term used in the New Testament to refer to the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. The gender of pneuma is neuter -- genderless.
In English translation, yes. This is because the English language does not have a neuter pronoun. I'm talking about the original Greek text. The only time pneuma is "turned masculine" is when it is used as an adjective; i.e., "spiritual." Cf. 1 Cor. 3:1, where Paul says "spiritual people." Pneuma here describes people and must be rendered masculine to agree with its noun. However, when referring to the noun, spirit, including holy Spirit, pneuma is always neuter.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>But in several other passages of the NT (particularly John and Acts), the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to as "he," not "it."</STRONG>
Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>In English translation, yes. This is because the English language does not have a neuter pronoun. I'm talking about the original Greek text. The only time pneuma is "turned masculine" is when it is used as an adjective; i.e., "spiritual." Cf. 1 Cor. 3:1, where Paul says "spiritual people." Pneuma here describes people and must be rendered masculine to agree with its noun. However, when referring to the noun, spirit, including holy Spirit, pneuma is always neuter.
[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]</STRONG>
Loner:Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>The important thing is that Jesus was human. Not that he was male or that he was Jewish. Christ as head of humanity embraces all races and both genders in his being. This is "how" he is "able" to save the whole human race. This is why belief in Christ is able to transcend all cultural bounds. If the important thing was that God the Son was Jewish and male, then women and non-Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. Cf. Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This would not be logically possible if the issue was Christ's race and/or gender.
BTW, as long as I'm here I may as well put in my $.02 about the gender issue. My example of Christ also applies to God the Father. If the Creator is "male", where do women come from? Sounds like a childish question but think about it. Here's an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (par. 370): "In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective 'perfections' of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband." In other words, each one of the sexes, male and female, represent different aspects of God, while God Himself is genderless. If God had a specific race and/or gender, there would be only one race and only one self-reproducing sex. The very variety of life proves that God's being embraces and emcompasses all, and all participate in God's being. Cf. Isaiah 49:14-15, 66:13; Psalm 131:2-3; Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 for some "motherly" images of God (the Father) and Christ (the Son).
Interestingly enough, BTW, the Greek word for spirit is pneuma, the term used in the New Testament to refer to the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity. The gender of pneuma is neuter -- genderless.
