The Matrix
I think C' Hit the nail on the head if one can become embroiled in a beleiveable plot and become involved with the characters then the film works that much more influentially.
PS Did anyone see total Recall 2074, that was an excellent series, another one lost to the studio exec.s
PS Did anyone see total Recall 2074, that was an excellent series, another one lost to the studio exec.s
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
@Georgi
So what's the significance of Morpheus' ship christened "Nebuchadnezzar?"
Nebuchadnezzar: king of Babylon 605-562 BC, destroyed Jerusalem in 586, and brought the survivors back to Babylonia for 70 years of captivity. He was stricken with insanity for his overweening pride, and lived liked a cattle and ate grass until he acknowledged the sovereignty of God Almighty.
Okay, what's the connection? In Isaiah, N.'s army is described as God's chosen instrument of vengeance against the Jews for persistently violating the first commandment by practicing idolatry. Morpheus' crew hardly respresent an invading army to be feared. There's only himself, Neo, Trinity, Tank, his brother, the platinum blonde chick, an Italian mobster, the little guy who goes on about the real taste of chickens, and the turncoat with the goatee.
Perhaps the insanity connection makes better sense: they're crazy to go up against those AI octopuses when their only means of defence is an electromagnetic pulse that cripples their ship in the process. What if more octopuses show up afterwards? They're screwed! Perhaps the exile connection? If so, they got it backwards. Humans in the Matrix are in cocooned stasis needing to be freed, not freed humans being forced into stasis. Other than the fact that it sounds cool when you say it aloud; "Nebuchadnezzar"
"Nebuchadneezzar" (good name for a lawful evil Sorcerer and/or Necromancer, by the way), I fail to find the significance.
@Elegans
"Canoe?" Ha! That's funny. Come to think of it, it makes sense calling him that. His acting is flat-bottomed, and you gotta wonder at times if he has both oars in the water.
@Thorin
The quote is from Spaceballs, a Mel Brooks film, and the best Star Wars spoof ever produced! I laugh when I think of some of the dialogue burned into my visual cortex from repeated watching:
Lord Hlmet: Now Lonestar, you will see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb!
My favorite scene fromt he movie comes after Lonestar escapes from the Spaceball mothership via hyperspace:
Lord Helmet: What happened?! Where are they?!
Colonel Sanders: I don't know, sir. They must have a hyperdrive on that thing!
Lord Helmet: And what do we have on this thing? A cuisinart?!
Col. Sanders: No, sir!
Lord Helmet: Well, find them! Catch them!
Col. Sanders: Yes, sir! Prepare ship for light speed!
Lord Helmet: No no no! Light speed is too slow!
Col. Sanders: Light speed too slow?
Lord Helmet: They got a head start on us, we'd never catch them that way. We're gonna have to go right to... Ludicrous Speed!
(Universal Gasp)
Col. Sanders: Ludicrous speed? Sir, we've never gone that fast before, I don't think this ship can take it!
Lord Helmet: What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken?
(Pause)
Col. Sanders: Prepare ship... prepare ship for Ludicrous Speed! Fasten all safety belts! Seal all entrances and exits! Close all stores in the mall! Cancel the 3-ringed circus! Secure all animals in the zoo...
Lord Helmet: Give me that [microphone] you sorry excuse for an officer! Now hear this! Ludicous Speed...
Col. Sanders: Sir! Hadn't you better buckle up?
Lord Helmet: Aw, buckle this! Ludicrous Speed... GO!!!
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!
@Vehemence and fable
The more time I spend on this forum, the more I realize the disavdantages of communicating via the internet. It's easy to misconstrue another person's response to your post as a sarcastic gibe, inflammatory statement, or ridicule of one's personal opinions when in reality such thing was never intended. Because we don't speak face to face, we can't see each other's expressions, much less interpret their thoughts in the manner it was meant to be conveyed in the first place, leading to heated arguments that consume more of our time and reflection than they're worth.
Assume the other person is not meaning to insult you, and if you feel or think otherwise, just remember Proverbs 12:16 - "A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a wise man overlooks an insult..." and moves on to better things.
RE: The Matrix Lobby Scene. I actually found it disturbing after the adrenaline rush from witnessing all though bullets fly started to die down. It kind of reminded me of the (in)famous scene in Pulp Fiction where John Travolta accidently shoots a kid in the head point blank, splattering blood and brains all over his clothing. Because the shooting occurred in a humorous context, however, the audience laughed! Instead of outrage and disgust, the theater erupted in laughter! In the Matrix, I sense the same irony at work. We're made to understand (or at least, I am) that the security guards and SWAT teams are computer generated holograms and not actual human beings, so wiping them out in glorified cold-blooded acrobatic shooting frenzy is justified, even, shall we say... necessary. It's much easier to stomach this scene if viewed with this in mind. The only problem is... to me, they're still human beings, not generated holograms. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far, and so I interpret Neo and Trinity's slaughter of human beings as Neo and Trinity's slaughter of human beings.
Thus, my subsequent reaction after giving it some thought.
@Vehemence
Try as you might, you simply cannot NOT analyze a motion picture, or a book, or photograph, or any form of art for that matter, to a certain extent. T.S. Eliot said it best when he wrote, "To criticize is as natural to human beings as breathing."
...
So what's the significance of Morpheus' ship christened "Nebuchadnezzar?"
Nebuchadnezzar: king of Babylon 605-562 BC, destroyed Jerusalem in 586, and brought the survivors back to Babylonia for 70 years of captivity. He was stricken with insanity for his overweening pride, and lived liked a cattle and ate grass until he acknowledged the sovereignty of God Almighty.
Okay, what's the connection? In Isaiah, N.'s army is described as God's chosen instrument of vengeance against the Jews for persistently violating the first commandment by practicing idolatry. Morpheus' crew hardly respresent an invading army to be feared. There's only himself, Neo, Trinity, Tank, his brother, the platinum blonde chick, an Italian mobster, the little guy who goes on about the real taste of chickens, and the turncoat with the goatee.
Perhaps the insanity connection makes better sense: they're crazy to go up against those AI octopuses when their only means of defence is an electromagnetic pulse that cripples their ship in the process. What if more octopuses show up afterwards? They're screwed! Perhaps the exile connection? If so, they got it backwards. Humans in the Matrix are in cocooned stasis needing to be freed, not freed humans being forced into stasis. Other than the fact that it sounds cool when you say it aloud; "Nebuchadnezzar"
"Nebuchadneezzar" (good name for a lawful evil Sorcerer and/or Necromancer, by the way), I fail to find the significance.
@Elegans
"Canoe?" Ha! That's funny. Come to think of it, it makes sense calling him that. His acting is flat-bottomed, and you gotta wonder at times if he has both oars in the water.
@Thorin
The quote is from Spaceballs, a Mel Brooks film, and the best Star Wars spoof ever produced! I laugh when I think of some of the dialogue burned into my visual cortex from repeated watching:
Lord Hlmet: Now Lonestar, you will see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb!
My favorite scene fromt he movie comes after Lonestar escapes from the Spaceball mothership via hyperspace:
Lord Helmet: What happened?! Where are they?!
Colonel Sanders: I don't know, sir. They must have a hyperdrive on that thing!
Lord Helmet: And what do we have on this thing? A cuisinart?!
Col. Sanders: No, sir!
Lord Helmet: Well, find them! Catch them!
Col. Sanders: Yes, sir! Prepare ship for light speed!
Lord Helmet: No no no! Light speed is too slow!
Col. Sanders: Light speed too slow?
Lord Helmet: They got a head start on us, we'd never catch them that way. We're gonna have to go right to... Ludicrous Speed!
(Universal Gasp)
Col. Sanders: Ludicrous speed? Sir, we've never gone that fast before, I don't think this ship can take it!
Lord Helmet: What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken?
(Pause)
Col. Sanders: Prepare ship... prepare ship for Ludicrous Speed! Fasten all safety belts! Seal all entrances and exits! Close all stores in the mall! Cancel the 3-ringed circus! Secure all animals in the zoo...
Lord Helmet: Give me that [microphone] you sorry excuse for an officer! Now hear this! Ludicous Speed...
Col. Sanders: Sir! Hadn't you better buckle up?
Lord Helmet: Aw, buckle this! Ludicrous Speed... GO!!!
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!
@Vehemence and fable
The more time I spend on this forum, the more I realize the disavdantages of communicating via the internet. It's easy to misconstrue another person's response to your post as a sarcastic gibe, inflammatory statement, or ridicule of one's personal opinions when in reality such thing was never intended. Because we don't speak face to face, we can't see each other's expressions, much less interpret their thoughts in the manner it was meant to be conveyed in the first place, leading to heated arguments that consume more of our time and reflection than they're worth.
Assume the other person is not meaning to insult you, and if you feel or think otherwise, just remember Proverbs 12:16 - "A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a wise man overlooks an insult..." and moves on to better things.
RE: The Matrix Lobby Scene. I actually found it disturbing after the adrenaline rush from witnessing all though bullets fly started to die down. It kind of reminded me of the (in)famous scene in Pulp Fiction where John Travolta accidently shoots a kid in the head point blank, splattering blood and brains all over his clothing. Because the shooting occurred in a humorous context, however, the audience laughed! Instead of outrage and disgust, the theater erupted in laughter! In the Matrix, I sense the same irony at work. We're made to understand (or at least, I am) that the security guards and SWAT teams are computer generated holograms and not actual human beings, so wiping them out in glorified cold-blooded acrobatic shooting frenzy is justified, even, shall we say... necessary. It's much easier to stomach this scene if viewed with this in mind. The only problem is... to me, they're still human beings, not generated holograms. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far, and so I interpret Neo and Trinity's slaughter of human beings as Neo and Trinity's slaughter of human beings.
Thus, my subsequent reaction after giving it some thought.
@Vehemence
Try as you might, you simply cannot NOT analyze a motion picture, or a book, or photograph, or any form of art for that matter, to a certain extent. T.S. Eliot said it best when he wrote, "To criticize is as natural to human beings as breathing."
...
As I understood it these guys are humans living in the matrix duing the job they think they have, but they don't have because it is the matrix.Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG><snip>
In the Matrix, I sense the same irony at work. We're made to understand (or at least, I am) that the security guards and SWAT teams are computer generated holograms and not actual human beings, so wiping them out in glorified cold-blooded acrobatic shooting frenzy is justified, even, shall we say... necessary. <snip></STRONG>
The only computerbeings are the "men in black" wich are a sort of anti-virus. All other are human minds in the matrix.
The only holograms per se was the ones in "neo'" training programs. (ei. blonde in red dress)
IMO
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]
Insert signature here.
-
Georgi
- Posts: 11288
- Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:00 pm
- Location: Can't wait to get on the road again...
- Contact:
Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>@Georgi
So what's the significance of Morpheus' ship christened "Nebuchadnezzar?"</STRONG>
I don't know, we never worked it out I was just pointing out that any in-depth analysis of the Matrix ought to include an attempt to work it out, since other names (Morpheus, for example) have their relevance... Why bother to tell the audience the ship has a name like that when it doesn't mean anything?
<STRONG>The quote is from Spaceballs, a Mel Brooks film, and the best Star Wars spoof ever produced!</STRONG>
Which, when you think about it, isn't the best accolade it could have... Seriously, I used to think it was good, but I saw it again recently and most of the humour was pretty tired.
Oh yeah, and since the film specifies if you die in the matrix, you die in real life, then they are killing real people in the lobby scene.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Georgi ]
<STRONG>@Georgi
So what's the significance of Morpheus' ship christened "Nebuchadnezzar?"</STRONG>
I don't know, we never worked it out
I was just pointing out that any in-depth analysis of the Matrix ought to include an attempt to work it out, since other names (Morpheus, for example) have their relevance... Why bother to tell the audience the ship has a name like that when it doesn't mean anything? <STRONG>The quote is from Spaceballs, a Mel Brooks film, and the best Star Wars spoof ever produced!</STRONG>
Which, when you think about it, isn't the best accolade it could have... Seriously, I used to think it was good, but I saw it again recently and most of the humour was pretty tired.
Oh yeah, and since the film specifies if you die in the matrix, you die in real life, then they are killing real people in the lobby scene.
[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Georgi ]
Who, me?!?
We also have to judge the personalities of posters, as you all know i am either cracking jokes (if you can call them thatOriginally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>
@Vehemence and fable
The more time I spend on this forum, the more I realize the disavdantages of communicating via the internet. It's easy to misconstrue another person's response to your post as a sarcastic gibe, inflammatory statement, or ridicule of one's personal opinions when in reality such thing was never intended. Because we don't speak face to face, we can't see each other's expressions, much less interpret their thoughts in the manner it was meant to be conveyed in the first place, leading to heated arguments that consume more of our time and reflection than they're worth.
Assume the other person is not meaning to insult you, and if you feel or think otherwise, just remember Proverbs 12:16 - "A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a wise man overlooks an insult..." and moves on to better things.
</STRONG>
) or being serious there is no dividing line, we as posters have a responsibility to assume a persons disposition from their previous posts.I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
Fable: I think the age old quote: "You started it" would fit nicely here
I apologise if you feel that I attacked you personally with some of my comments. I responded somewhat angrily at some of your comments. Perhaps this was not the wisest or mature things to do, but being a guy, I'm often prone to sometimes responding hastily and irrationally.
Perhaps a more rational thing to do would have been to focus on your points about things you would change in order to make it better. Thus making it more entertaining to you. I can only say that this is a highly individual thing which makes the world so great. You are entitled to not like the movie and I apologise if you felt that this was not allowed. I only wanted to emphasise that this is individual choice and the directors went for a different angle and it was perceieved by me as being entertaining and fitting with the movie.
I don't believe we need to resort to ignoring each other's posts just yet Theres probably a great deal we can learn from each other by rational conversation and I still think this is achievable.
I apologise if you feel that I attacked you personally with some of my comments. I responded somewhat angrily at some of your comments. Perhaps this was not the wisest or mature things to do, but being a guy, I'm often prone to sometimes responding hastily and irrationally.
Perhaps a more rational thing to do would have been to focus on your points about things you would change in order to make it better. Thus making it more entertaining to you. I can only say that this is a highly individual thing which makes the world so great. You are entitled to not like the movie and I apologise if you felt that this was not allowed. I only wanted to emphasise that this is individual choice and the directors went for a different angle and it was perceieved by me as being entertaining and fitting with the movie.
I don't believe we need to resort to ignoring each other's posts just yet
Theres probably a great deal we can learn from each other by rational conversation and I still think this is achievable. Cartoon Law III
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Any body passing through solid matter will leave a perforation conforming to its perimeter. Also called the silhouette of passage, this phenomenon is the speciality of victims of directed-pressure explosions and of reckless cowards who are so eager to escape that they exit directly through the wall of a house, leaving a cookie-cutout-perfect hole. The threat of skunks or matrimony often catalyzes this reaction.
Re: Nebuchadnezzeer
Don't you rotten spammers know anything?
Nebuchadnezzer was King of Babylon, a Bible character of the Old Testament. He was "an instument used by God to punish the Israelites for their idolotry."
Seeings as the human home world is "Zion", I think this fits in with the apocalyptic/messianic storyline. As for the relationship of "punisher of Israelites" with the ship the hackers use.... ???
Don't you rotten spammers know anything?
Nebuchadnezzer was King of Babylon, a Bible character of the Old Testament. He was "an instument used by God to punish the Israelites for their idolotry."
Seeings as the human home world is "Zion", I think this fits in with the apocalyptic/messianic storyline. As for the relationship of "punisher of Israelites" with the ship the hackers use.... ???
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
-
KidD01
- Posts: 5699
- Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:00 pm
- Location: In the bunker underneath your house
- Contact:
ROFLMGDAO Yep I still remember the scene when Lord Helmet really should have buckle up. Also that hillarious sword fight scene when Lord Helmet accidentally hit a cameraman !Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG><SNIP>
Lord Helmet: Give me that [microphone] you sorry excuse for an officer! Now hear this! Ludicous Speed...
Col. Sanders: Sir! Hadn't you better buckle up?
Lord Helmet: Aw, buckle this! Ludicrous Speed... GO!!!
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!
</STRONG>
I'm not dead yet
@Georgi: apologies, I rarely read what Eminem sez.
I think I see the connection. King N was the punisher of idolatry. The israelites are, clearly, in the Matrix humans (created AI's to think for them). The crew of the ship are the disciples, Cipher is Judas Iscariot and Neo is Jesus. The Nebuchadnezzer is the start point of redemption for the humans - on the one hand it is the vessel from which "god's work" is done (hack into the matrix), on the other hand, it also serves as "penance" for those who inhabit it - would you like to eat that grey cr*p every day?
I think I see the connection. King N was the punisher of idolatry. The israelites are, clearly, in the Matrix humans (created AI's to think for them). The crew of the ship are the disciples, Cipher is Judas Iscariot and Neo is Jesus.
The Nebuchadnezzer is the start point of redemption for the humans - on the one hand it is the vessel from which "god's work" is done (hack into the matrix), on the other hand, it also serves as "penance" for those who inhabit it - would you like to eat that grey cr*p every day? "Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
Enchantress is my Goddess.
Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
-
fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
@Vehemence, I'm willing to let the matter slide, though I'd rather not get into what could have been done to make the film better. That would *really* require an in-depth analysis of the film. If you can just find it in yourself to allow that we can both be right, yet have opposing views, I think we can end this pretty rapidly.
There is one point I'll clear up, since it bothered you in my initial comments: yes, Matrix is a cyberpunk action flick, and yes, it's fantasy. Cyberpunk action flicks are a sub-genre of the fantasy genre. That's why Bladerunner, when it first appeared in book form, was sold in the fantasy area of bookstores. Some other fantasy sub-genres would be Celtic, pseudo-medieval, modern times, etc. It's all just a matter of convenience.
If you can just find it in yourself to allow that we can both be right, yet have opposing views, I think we can end this pretty rapidly.There is one point I'll clear up, since it bothered you in my initial comments: yes, Matrix is a cyberpunk action flick, and yes, it's fantasy. Cyberpunk action flicks are a sub-genre of the fantasy genre. That's why Bladerunner, when it first appeared in book form, was sold in the fantasy area of bookstores. Some other fantasy sub-genres would be Celtic, pseudo-medieval, modern times, etc. It's all just a matter of convenience.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
-
Gwalchmai
- Posts: 6252
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 11:00 am
- Location: This Quintessence of Dust
- Contact:
@Fable: Isn't Cyber-Punk more of an sub-genre of Sci-Fi rather than Fantasy? However, as has been discussed in other threads (Star Wars for example) Fantasy and Sci-Fi are blending to form more of a continuum rather than separate genre. But one of the salient characteristics of Sci-Fi (I think you said this) is that it deals more with the human condition and broad themes rather than with individual stories of people. Cyber-Punk, set in the future and with a focus on technology, seems to be more focused on such broad themes as "look what happens when we let computers/drugs/base instincts/corporations get out of hand". Cyber-Punk always seems to have ramifications for the human race. Therefore, I would say it fits in with Sci-Fi better than Fantasy. (IMHO)
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
-
fable
- Posts: 30676
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
- Contact:
Yeah, I think they are growing together. But if you look at some of the cyberpunk games of the past, for example, they were labeled at the time "genre: fantasy/cyberpunk." I suspect that's because they were concerned with human and social values on this tottering planet, rather than hard science issues.Gwalchmai writes:
Isn't Cyber-Punk more of an sub-genre of Sci-Fi rather than Fantasy? However, as has been discussed in other threads (Star Wars for example) Fantasy and Sci-Fi are blending to form more of a continuum rather than separate genre.
Now, there's an issue. Is Matrix science fiction, or fantasy? And what does it matter?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
-
Gwalchmai
- Posts: 6252
- Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 11:00 am
- Location: This Quintessence of Dust
- Contact:
Well, citing the category assigned to some computer games by a corporate marketing genius is probably a pretty poor argument for the cyber-punk/fantasy connection, since the category probably had more to do with marketing and product placement than anything else. But the concept may nevertheless be valid. However, I would also argue that Science Fiction doesn't necessarily have to deal in 'Hard Science' or 'Real Science' in order for it to qualify. Science, in terms of the genre, is often wildly extrapolated from some vague reality-based science. I remember an old story, from the 40s, I think, called "The Machine" (again, I think) where society had moved underground and was living under the benevolence of a huge machine that controlled everything. Sounds a lot like the Matrix (ah, but I haven't seen The Matrix: I really can't stand Canoe), but without the 'Cyber'. The Machine was entirely mechanical, but no less a metaphor for humans letting technology run our lives.Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Yeah, I think they are growing together. But if you look at some of the cyberpunk games of the past, for example, they were labeled at the time "genre: fantasy/cyberpunk." I suspect that's because they were concerned with human and social values on this tottering planet, rather than hard science issues.
Now, there's an issue. Is Matrix science fiction, or fantasy? And what does it matter?
It is largely thanks to Asimov and others that Science Fiction has focused on ‘Hard Science.’ When I think of Cyber-Punk, I think William Gibson: stories about individuals for sure, but having to deal with a dark future society where designer drugs are easily obtained, the distinction between the wiring of a computer and the wiring of the human brain is blurred, evil corporations run the world, even more evil AIs take over the corporations, but with a nice little undercurrent of morality saying “See? This is what could happen if we don’t watch out.” Science Fiction.
Standard Disclaimer: IMHO, but I can be convinced otherwise!
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Gwalchmai ]
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.