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Dottie
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Post by Dottie »

Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>It doesn't take a genius to know what kind of life a person is leading based upon the belief system he/she holds to. And what is really arrogant, puerile, and if I may add, immature, is your belief that being tied to one person in a loving relationship is somehow unnatural. It is the most natural thing in the world! If you don't believe me, go speak to your mom and dad.</STRONG>
How narrow-minded can a person become before he vanish?

Why this antipathy for people with a differnet life-style? And why do you motivate your prejudice with what other people think?
While others climb the mountains High, beneath the tree I love to lie
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thantor3
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Post by thantor3 »

Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>That's cuz you haven't met the right person yet. When you fall in love (I mean TRULY in love) with some one, you'll want to commit yourself to him and him alone mind, body and soul for as long as you both shall live. It's called marriage, and 90% of humanity do it. Until that time, dragonwench, or until you decide to ditch these empty-headed notions, I expect you will continue to feel frustrated, confused and broken-hearted in your relationships.</STRONG>
Thank you for that riveting piece of data. It was stunning the way you managed to be both juvenile and bigoted in a single paragraph.

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]
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Absence is to love what wind is to fire... it extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.
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NCT
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<STRONG>Except for my husband, who suits both categories, I'd like to date:

A 30-40 year old Sean Connery for bed

For intellectual discussion:
living people
Steven J Gould or Stephen Hawking

historical:
Democritos - I'd like to ask him how on earth he developed the atomism :) </STRONG>
I hope your hubby is good with projectile weapons and other nasty instruments.
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Delacroix
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Post by Delacroix »

This conversation is no longer constructive.
As you all are talking about mature/imature, let me say that avoid the natural end of this debate(a closed topic) will be something very mature from all sides.

Let's avoid future ofensive reply, please.
thank you
[Sorry about my English]

Ps: I'm "Ivan Cavallazzi".

Lurker(0.50). : )
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NCT
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by Weasel:
<STRONG>OMG :eek: I take my vitamin E and Viagra....just for one. What will I have to take for two or more!! :o </STRONG>
You shouldn't ask--being a Communicator and all,unless the batteries are low.
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by NCT:
<STRONG>
You shouldn't ask--being a Communicator and all,unless the batteries are low.</STRONG>
But my batteries are low. :( Too many nights swinging. :o
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
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NCT
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by Weasel:
<STRONG>But my batteries are low. :( Too many nights swinging. :o </STRONG>
Beware of ropes and other elongated flexible things!
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by NCT:
<STRONG>
Beware of ropes and other elongated flexible things!</STRONG>
If only had gotten this advice before spending my 'vacation' in Holman Prison. :eek: :eek:
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
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NCT
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Post by NCT »

"Communicating" like that reminded me of your attempt to reach the prodigal spammer Ubik.Any luck with the e-mail or do we have to mount another bloody,gut-spilling,anihilating expedition?
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fable
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Post by fable »

Eminem writes:
And what is really arrogant, puerile, and if I may add, immature, is your belief...
Eminem, the post I've quoted above of yours clearly steps beyond the boundaries acceptable on this board. It's a flame, and as such in violation of Buck's rules.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and you express them well. But when you deliberately set out to provoke or hurt another member, you definitely cross a line. Consider yourself warned.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Weasel
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by NCT:
<STRONG>"Communicating" like that reminded me of your attempt to reach the prodigal spammer Ubik.Any luck with the e-mail or do we have to mount another bloody,gut-spilling,anihilating expedition?</STRONG>
Attempt?? I did reach him. :D I cannot post the PM he sent me in return.. :eek: the board will delete almost 3/4 of it and it wouldn't make sense. :D :D

Here is his e-mail add, Ubik01@yahoo.com
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
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Tom
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Post by Tom »

im not gay but i would love a date with wittgenstein. just too see if he was clearer in person than in writing. Also to clear up some controversies in interpretation about what he really meant.

Cleo... what a nose :D
I didn't really bounce Eeyore. I had a cough, and I happened to be behind Eeyore, and I said "Grrrr-oppp-ptschschschz."

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NCT
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Post by NCT »

@Weasel:Good show.Thanks,I'll take it from here.And you know his team is a total waste!
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Post by Yshania »

Posted by Eminem -

That's cuz you haven't met the right person yet. When you fall in love (I mean TRULY in love) with some one, you'll want to commit yourself to him and him alone mind, body and soul for as long as you both shall live. It's called marriage, and 90% of humanity do it.
:eek: Do you not consider it is reasonable for people in a committed relationship to maintain a circle of friends or desire the occasional distraction? I am not referring just to sexual relationships here, as I believe Dragon Wench was not also...

I am a happily married person, but both my husband and I have our own social circle. Yes a lot of it overlaps, but we have our friends and occasions where we go to have a little breathing space. This does not mean we are not committed, nor does it mean we do not receive a lot of what we need from each other. It simply means we respect the needs of each other may involve a little more than each other.

IMHO, one person cannot possibly provide everything that another person needs - but can go a long way to achieving that. If true love is all about getting everything you want from one person, then why do married couples maintain friendships with others? Out of duty?

By your definition my husband and I are not TRULY in love then? IMHO relationships need space if they are to mature.

90% and marriage? I wonder these days whether 90% do actually marry...in the UK I believe in about 30% of families the parents are not married...
Posted by Eminem -

Until that time, dragonwench, or until you decide to ditch these empty-headed notions, I expect you will continue to feel frustrated, confused and broken-hearted in your relationships.
That is a little unfair don't you think? How are you qualified to accuse someone of empty headed ideas?, just because you don't agree it doesn't make the other person wrong. Oh, and did anyone actually say they were frustrated, confused and broken hearted? :rolleyes:
Posted by Eminem -

It doesn't take a genius to know what kind of life a person is leading based upon the belief system he/she holds to.
No, but it takes a little more sensitivity not to take one comment as a statement of fact....as I think you may agree, belief is a complicated issue that cannot be summed up in one paragraph without expansion. To make a decision on someone's lifestyle because of one statement is a little premature...maybe you could have opened a discussion and received a little more insight. How do you know a person actually practises what they believe in if you have not taken the time to find out?
Posted by Eminem -

And what is really arrogant, puerile, and if I may add, immature, is your belief that being tied to one person in a loving relationship is somehow unnatural.
Then I concede I am imature also. Variety is the spice, and can only prove to enrich.
Posted by Eminem -

It is the most natural thing in the world! If you don't believe me, go speak to your mom and dad.
Good idea - but then my mum and dad divorced thirty years ago... :rolleyes:

This may appear to be a personal attack - it was not intended. I was just a little surprised at how you jumped on one person, summarising their life, based on a short comment supporting the theories of another. :(

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]
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NCT
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Post by NCT »

Originally posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>It doesn't take a genius to know what kind of life a person is leading based upon the belief system he/she holds to. And what is really arrogant, puerile, and if I may add, immature, is your belief that being tied to one person in a loving relationship is somehow unnatural. It is the most natural thing in the world! If you don't believe me, go speak to your mom and dad.</STRONG>
Friend,You just made Rocket Scientist extraordinaire!!!You have deduced a whole belief system from a single relationship statementI believe you must have used the Bollinger method,combined with Spatial Fourrier Analysis.As for your..ehr..descriptives,no one will take them seriously,they are way above us simple beings.
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fable
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Post by fable »

While comments upon Eminem's post are fine, I would remind all SYM members that flaming back is not. We don't need, and won't accept, a war, here. Thanks.

[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: fable ]
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

posted by Dragon Wench:
<STRONG>Sounds wonderful, I think that western society could learn something from this example. Instead, people have secret extramarital affairs because monagamy continues to be upheld as a value that we should aspire to. In my opinion, to limit oneself to a single person, emotionally, intellectually or sexually, is unnatural.
</STRONG>
posted by EMINEM:
<STRONG>That's cuz you haven't met the right person yet. When you fall in love (I mean TRULY in love) with some one, you'll want to commit yourself to him and him alone mind, body and soul for as long as you both shall live. It's called marriage, and 90% of humanity do it.
<snip>
your belief that being tied to one person in a loving relationship is somehow unnatural. It is the most natural thing in the world!
</STRONG>
A few comments to DW and MM: Personally, I agree with DW that it is in one sense "unnatural" for the human being to tie oneself up to one person in all those areas. But it also depends on how we define the word unnatural. Is "natural" synonymous with "original" or is "natural" anything that we humans have created, since it is obviouly have a need to create it?

Man, especially we in the Western world, has contructed the world we live in to a large extent. Out gene pool has certainly not changed to the extent that we have changed the world we live in. Let me take a little example: the phenomenon known as phobia. Lots of people are very afraid of spiders, snakes, darkness and heights. Studies of learning and fear show that we humans have a predisposition for fear of those things, and it's believed this is the reason why so many people are afraid of those things. It has a adaptive survival value. Now, if we look at todays society, people in the "civilized" Western world very seldom die because of insects or falls from height. Apart from diseases like cancer and cardiovascular disease, the most common cause of death is car accidents. Still, there is not a single report of car-phobia increasing. We simply haven't adapted to include cars in our instinctual fears.

So we have constructed ourselves an unnatural world to live in. But on the other hand, it's obviously not unnatural for man to created unnatural worlds, since "civilazation" has spread to the extent it has. Personally, I believe that it is inherent in the human nature, in our genes and our minds, to have this need for exploring, exploiting and controlling the world around us. I truly wish it wasn't so, but that's what I believe.

So is life long monogamous relationsships unnatural or natural? I'd say they are unnatural in the same sense as living in a skyscrape and sitting at an office all day, is unnatural. Surely it is not the kind of life style the human being is adapted for. But that's what we have made. I don't want to apply moral values on the modern life style, but I think one thing is important:

By understanding there is a difference between what our bodies and minds are adapted for, and the present life style and norms, we can gain a better understanding of certain problems or areas.

Let's look at infidelity: Reports from the US and some Eurpean countries show that 50% of all married men and women have cheated on their partner at least once. Now, why is that? How can we understand this problem if we view at "natural" to live in life long monogamous couple relationships? Why are so many people looking for extramarial romance and sex, if we are all naturally "made for" not cheating?

Or a less "loaded" example: Why are so many people in the Wester world overweight to an unhealthy extent? If it's "natural" for us to sit still all day, why do a majority of those who do so develop health problems?

Same things goes for other aspects of modern life style. Why do so many people experience stress and strain while keeping up full time jobs and rearing small children? Is it because there's something wrong with those people who can't cope with the society as it is?

I hope you see my point. IMO life long monogamy, serial monogamy, satellite relationships of all kinds or group living of all kinds are fine as long as everybody involved is honest, has made a conscious choice and take responsibility for whatever the consequences might be. A large majority of societies today has the core family as the basic unit of society - it's the smallest reproductive unit possible, and it also goes well together with the concept of private ownership of property. Still, historically and presently, there are some cultures who live in groups where the whole group is the unit. In Southern and Eastern Europe as well as, many people live in families who are extended core families spanning several generations. In semi-nomadic tribes in Northern Africa, it's common that people have two or more sets of families, perhaps one in the desert, one in the mountains and one in an agricultural area. What is a "natural" form for man and women to love, reproduce and rear children, is very much depending on other factors in that specific society.

There is an extensive literature around where different approaches have been used to study the question of monogamy and polygamy. Most studies have actually come to the conclusion that life long monogamous relationships are not what humans are genetically adapted for - but as I said, we are not adapted to living in skyscraped either, still many of us want to do it. So, IMO each person has to make a choice how they want to live depending on his or her culture, personality, values, etc.

Last year, I and my husband was travelling with a Berber guy who lived in the kind of semi-nomadic style I described above. In his culture, it's the norm that you have two or more families. His father had two wives, and he called them both mothers. He though, had chosed to have just one wife, because he liked to have a monogamous marriage. She and the kids were living in an agricultural area, wheras he was alone in the summertime when the men in the tribe go out in the desert to trade with other tribes. So, that was his personal choice.

Personally, I'm married and I'm very committed to my husband. But that does in no way mean I don't need other people as well. I have some very close friends and many good friends, both male and female, people who I have different kinds of relationships to than I have to him. Do these relationships take anything from my marriage? Certainly not - they add to my life at a deeper level, and thus, they indirectly add to my marriage as well. :)
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