beauty pagents vs. porn (serious topic)

[dragon wench]

In my opinion, beauty pagents are fundamentally degrading towards women. Indeed, I find them considerably more offensive than pornography, for the simple reason that the latter is at least honest about itself. Pornography does not pretend to be about anything other than sex. Conversely, beauty pagents present the illusion that their participants are accomplished in areas not pertaining to their physical attributes. The reality, however, is that they would not be there if they did not look good in a bathing suit.

Thoughts?

[nael]

i agree that they are based solely on looks (more or less), but why does this constitute degradation towards women? no one is forcing them into the pageants, and why shouldn;t a woman use what she can in this world?

[Delacroix]

...errr....hmmm ....People...what is a Beauty Pagents... ....?

it is serious, I don't know.


But Porn I know

[nael]

things such as Ms America, Ms Universe. women walk around a stage wearign bathing suits and evening gowns and get judged on their looks and presence.
then they get asked a question that a retarded moneky could answer better. the answers usually involve saving children.

[Shadow Sandrock]

I actually see your point about that....

[Aegis]

It is all part of the degradation of Western (Global?) Civilization. People are becoming incredably superficial, and shallow, thus those that look good will have the easy life through. It won't matter if they are an accomplished physisct(sp) or a Cab driver. If you look good, people will like you. I am against things that promoe that way of thinking (Pagents, Supermodels, Weasel ( ) ) and I think it's only going to get worse in the future.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>Indeed, I find them considerably more offensive than pornography, for the simple reason that the latter is at least honest about itself. </STRONG>

I actually diagree with the last comments, i have watched a few documentaries about the porn industry, and they go on about what a family they are etc. How they look after each other, this however is untrue, they don't look after each other and they are not generally nice people.

As to the beauty pagents, personally i do think they exploit women for no reason other than their looks. However this is not nearly as bad as the child beauty pagents, which are just sick!

[Saruman]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>However this is not nearly as bad as the child beauty pagents, which are just sick! </STRONG>

Agree totally, Child beauty pagents are an excuse for retarded parents to ruin their childs normal developement for the sake of their (the parents) own sense of demented pride. Fortunately they are not as widespread in the UK as the USA

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: Saruman ]

[thantor3]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>I actually diagree with the last comments, i have watched a few documentaries about the porn industry, and they go on about what a family they are etc. How they look after each other, this however is untrue, they don't look after each other and they are not generally nice people.
</STRONG>

While this is true, I don't think it undermines the validity of DW original statement. The fact that the porn industry lies about itself (big surprise) is at a different level of analysis then the question of if porn, as a phenomenon, is essentially more offensive than beauty pageants, as a phenomenon. At that level, I would support DW assertion. Porn being what it is, one can create certain boundaries and potentially filter some of the negative impact of its content. For example, one can place restrictions on computer access to websites for children. Beauty pageants, however, are not only widely accessible but are actually held in a place of status and esteem. They set standards of beauty and desirability that continue the pattern of "internalize oppression" in woman. To give one example from a recent report:

In North America the incidence of anorexia nervosa increased dramatically since the 1960s, coinciding with a drastic change in the feminine body ideal towards thinness, as propagated by the fashion lords and publicized by the media [GARNER & GARFINKEL 1980; JONES et al. 1980; LUCAS et al. 1991]. It is of interest that the weight tables used by American physicians, supposedly objective scientific measures of "normal" standards of health, followed the fashionable downward trend in female body weight [RITENBAUGH 1982]. Since the 1980s, cases of anorexia nervosa have also become increasingly known in non-Western countries among young women in social strata exposed to heavy Westernizing influence, notably in Japan and Hong Kong.

The standards that beauty pageants set affect a wider audience with a more subtle impact that is harder to filter. Thus, in my mind, they are more damaging.

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: thantor3 ]

[THE JAKER]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>i have watched a few documentaries about the porn industry, and they go on about what a family they are etc. How they look after each other, this however is untrue, they don't look after each other and they are not generally nice people.(</STRONG>

I would point out that the same could be said for the beauty pageant circuit.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by THE JAKER:
<STRONG>I would point out that the same could be said for the beauty pageant circuit.</STRONG>

You could, but didn't you just do that?

@Thantor, fair enough I don't think it undermines the validity of her argument either, i just think that the porn industry isn't exactly great either, perhaps i should have clarified my comments

[dragon wench]

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
<STRONG>You could, but didn't you just do that?

@Thantor, fair enough I don't think it undermines the validity of her argument either, i just think that the porn industry isn't exactly great either, perhaps i should have clarified my comments </STRONG>

@Sleep, I agree with you, I just think that the influence of beauty pagents is far more insidious, and thus far more dangerous.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>@Sleep, I agree with you, I just think that the influence of beauty pagents is far more insidious, and thus far more dangerous. </STRONG>

True, i don't think there is a person whom would disagree with you on that issue. Glad to see for once we are all in agreement Kind of trashes the discussion part of yourthread though

[CM]

Both are degrading it is that simple.
But it is a persons personal choice - of course that does not make it right.

[Gwalchmai]

Originally posted by thantor3:
<STRONG>It is of interest that the weight tables used by American physicians, supposedly objective scientific measures of "normal" standards of health, followed the fashionable downward trend in female body weight [RITENBAUGH 1982].</STRONG>

Is this a reference to Cheryl Ritenbaugh?

- curious Gwally -

[Darkpoet]

I always thought beauty pagents were stupid anyway. It is just another way to degrade and drool at women on public tv.

[Bloodstalker]

I always thought beauty pagents were stupid anyway. It is just another way to degrade and drool at women on public tv

I thought that's what we had Baywatch for?

[dragon wench]

Originally posted by Fas:
<STRONG>Both are degrading it is that simple.
But it is a persons personal choice - of course that does not make it right.</STRONG>

I do think that personal choice is critical in either case.
However, as I mentioned, the influence of pagents is pernicious in its relative subtlety. I would hazard that there are far more young girls who aspire to be pagent queens, than there are girls who dream of becoming porn stars.......Moreover, as others have stated, beauty pagents are upheld as wholesome, while in reality they setting unrealistic standards and objectifying women's bodies. Porn perpetutates other lies about itself, but it does not pretend to be morally sound.

[Darkpoet]

Too many blondes in the pagent too. Meeeeeeeooooooowwwwwwww, I bet the backstage dressing room, gets a little catty.

[CM]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>I do think that personal choice is critical in either case.
However, as I mentioned, the influence of pagents is pernicious in its relative subtlety. I would hazard that there are far more young girls who aspire to be pagent queens, than there are girls who dream of becoming porn stars.......Moreover, as others have stated, beauty pagents are upheld as wholesome, while in reality they setting unrealistic standards and objectifying women's bodies. Porn perpetutates other lies about itself, but it does not pretend to be morally sound.</STRONG>

Well in the case you have stated, and others have also, parents play a big role in the wishes of children to become beauty queens.
I saw a documentary on BBC which was about child pagents.
It was awful, the way the 6 year olds dressed up like 30 year olds.
They weren't beautiful but in my opinion ugly.
The make up, hairdo and everything the site just sickened me.
But another thing i noticed, it was the parents who were proud and boasting about their kids.
Both men and women were shown in equal terms of being pathetic.

And i believe beauty pagents also breed arrogance, viciousness ie cattiness etc.
As well as bringing a persons looks far ahead than what is up in the head.
I personally hold one to be just as morally repugnant as the other.
However i do understand that those in the porn industry might have been forced into it or something - in the case of the third world.