Blackguard + Palemaster?

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:01 am

Ok, first of all this is kind of silly. I could test this out in a blink if only I could get NWN2 to run. Unfortunately I'm experiencing technical difficulties in that department since MotB's patch update. But I won't bore you with that now. To ease my mind a bit I'm going to post the multiclass idea here, and hope for some constructive feedback.

I want to create a charisma specialized character that I can *actually* rely on in combat (I also hate stuck-up Pally's and annoying Bards

). Divine Grace and Dark Blessing fascinated me for a while, but I stopped trying to combine classes to make proper use of these similar feats some time ago. I always get sort of close with a Paladin/Duelist (parry + charisma saves) or a Paladin/Sorcerer/RDD (dragon breath charisma rolls + charisma saves), but neither build makes for an exquisite fighter or defender. I thought about doing the same with Divine Grace's opposite, Dark Blessing (Blackguard), but I couldn't really come up with anything.

So how about this for anything. Can a Blackguard and a Palemaster be successfully multiclassed? Good AC, terrific saves, immunities; a terrific defender. Of course, best use a Sorcerer to get the the Palemaster, so you can cast spells using charisma rolls. However, getting to the Black guard without spending too many class levels can get tricky.

I could start out as a Paladin and then convert it into a Blackguard. I don't exactly know how a Paladin's levels are absorbed into a Blackguard's. If those levels are actually changed into Blackguard levels I could cut it short one class to the maximum of four classes in a multiclass character. Leaving some room for other classes open like that would be a good idea, especially since I don't yet know how I could level this class beyond levels 20-25.
However, it's not possible to become a Blackguard at the 2nd character level (2nd class level gives you Dark Blessing), it will more likely be the 5th or the 6th until you can meet the BAB, skill and feat requirement. Meaning you'd be spending Paladin class levels you're not actually going to use. You could sneak in a few early Sorcerer levels, but it might just take too many character levels to get the appropriate class levels.
Alternatively, it just might be easier to 'prepare' for a Blackguard while starting out as a Sorcerer. With a Sorcerer's limited class skills and low BAB that might be very difficult to accomplish though. In any event, I do need four or five Sorcerer levels to be meet the Palemaster requirement of being able to cast 3rd level arcane spells, so I might as well put them to use. I might need an alternative 4th class to speed it up the BAB requirement for the Blackguard, like a fighter. Again, I'm not keen on relying on 4 classes in my multi-salad. I wish I could test that.

Just writing it all out like that cleared my mind. Still, what do you guys think about all this? Could a Charisma based Blackguard/Palemaster be made viable? I absolutely have to specialize in Charisma, it's the [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeons-and-dragons-24/the-leader-97990.html"]leadership[/url] quality I want to emulate the most.

potatoe · Post by **potatoe** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:38 am

Drow Warlock+Blackguard

walk unseen: 24h invisibility (~level 6)
dark blessing: +char as save bonus
the dark ones own luck: +char as save bonus (~level1)
divine shield: +char to AC
damage reduction
fiendish resilience: fast healing (level 8)
medium armor
attacks while remaining invisible (tenacious plague~level 8)
spell resistance

Charisma is extremely relevant to such a build and it is an excellent defender. You'd need to take warlock up to level 8 however to really get the benefits.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:43 am

Appreciated, but I'd like to stick the discussion to this build. Besides, warlocks get the low fortitude save increases on levelup, especially if you stick to so many levels. It offsets the increases you get through Dark Blessing tremendously.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:56 am

Drow

Strength 16
*
*
*
*
*
Charisma 18

4, 8 CHA 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 STR

1Sorceror 1 - Extend Spell
2Sorceror 2
3Sorceror 3 - Still Spell
4Sorceror 4
5Sorceror 5
6Sorceror 6 - Practiced Spellcaster
7Pale Master 1
8Pale Master 2
9Pale Master 3 - Power Attack
10Pale Master 4
11Pale Master 5
12Pale Master 6 - Cleave
13Black Guard 1
14Black Guard 2
15Black Guard 3 - Divine Shield
16Eldritch Knight 1
17Eldritch Knight 2
18Black Guard 4 - Divine Might
19Eldritch Knight 3
20Eldritch Knight 4
21Eldritch Knight 5 - Great Strength 1
22Eldritch Knight 6
23Eldritch Knight 7 - Great Charisma 1
24Eldritch Knight 8
25Eldritch Knight 9 - Epic Divine Might
26Eldritch Knight 10
27Pale Master 7 - Great Charisma 2
28Pale Master 8
29Pale Master 9 - Persistent Spell
30Pale Master 10

Casts as a sorceror 20 Fights with a BAB of 22. Spells: Buffs and no save spells (stilled)

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:26 am

Oooh, lookie lookie! Interesting. If I may ask, why the two Eldritch Knight levels? Just for Combat Casting? If so, why shouldn't I just pick that feat on the fly? I might have a feat to spare with this defensive build. What if, instead of those two levels, I take one Warlock level for Dark One's Own Luck? "Luck bonus to all saving throws equal to your Charisma bonus for 24 hours". That could get pretty hefty.

Also, black Guards don't get Divine Might or Divine Shield. Aura of Despair at 3rd class level is a Black Guard's only other attribute affecting ability other than Dark Blessing. AoD affects the saves of enemies by -2, but I wonder if a character that specializes in defence should bother spend a character level on that.

Then again, it may be possible if you take Paladin levels instead, and absorb them into a Blackguard. Then again, it might not. I don't know how this level-absorbing works in Neverwinter Nights 2. It might mean five classes to multiclass, which is impossible.

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:28 pm

Blackguard gets turn undead at level 3 and thus is able to take divine feats including divine shield and might. I have tested this. You have to take blackguard at the feat level. I used 15 and 18.

EK stands for eldritch knight and I take 10 levels. The reason is to have a high enough BAB so the epic divine might amounts to some beans (you still will have a low Attack Bonus (AB) so against strong melee opponents you cast (Bigbys spells and Issaacs Greater Missile Storm) and against casters you put up mantles and chop them up.

Paladin levels don't absorb to blackguard. With alignment switch you can make a pally blackguard with divine grace/dark blessing stacking...You can even add warlock to make a supersaver. You do need alignment changes which is tough unless you have console commands. I prefer only one of BG/Pal because then you can fit in sorceror/Pale master/Eldritch Knight. I like blackguard better because Paladin can't take Divine Might/Shield until 4th level rather than 3rd and blackguard is a prestige class so you can be a drow rather than an aasimar. You can still get Epic Divine Might with an aasimar but other stats will be slightly lower and you won't have Spell resistance.

I'll fix the abbreviations on my previous post.

There's other good warrior sorceror builds...Pale Master isn't the best mix because you only get a caster level on odd levels. It would be good if there were such a thing as devestating critical however. And if the undead summons could be a demilich.

Here's a build its a good caster and can do some fighting when called on but against enemy melee experts its better to cast against them and use your fighting maybe to conserve spells against trash monsters. Eldritch Paladin of Candlekeep Pal(4),Sor(6),EK(10),ASC(10) - NWN2Wiki, the Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:06 pm

I see now, 10. Thank you, that was most enlightening. I remember now, there was something special about at which level you choose to convert to a Blackguard. I must have read something about it before, but I had forgotten. So it can be done like that. Very nice.

I suppose the EK will do fine. Beyond the PM levels, all I want are more saves so it can act as a wall between combatants. The sorcerer's spell book will be spend on protecting my character too, primarily. I'm still not sure if that warrants Divine might, but I suppose there are worse classes to fill things up with. With a Blackguard I get my fortitude saves either way. Same for the EK.

Thank you, you've been a big help to me. I'm going to try these out soon.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:09 pm

Though certainly in the realm of "epic characters"..

you could -

fore go the levels in Palemaster and instead opt for an automatic still spell 1-9 in conjunction with this spell (as an epic Wizard):

Neverwinter Nights 2 @ GameBanshee

and 5+ levels as a cleric (strength domain) with this spell:

Neverwinter Nights 2 @ GameBanshee

Tack on 2 levels as a Blackguard or Paladin.. OR 1 level as a Warlock (and the invocation the "Dark Ones Own Luck").

That would still leave you with one extra class..

If you wanted higher saves then certainly the Warlock..

Or perhaps If you want higher AC.. perhaps one level as a Palemaster OR as a Monk.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:25 pm

You know, about Monks and Paladins..

On general terms what's better, gaining 10 AC or 10 'everything' saves?

Claudius · Post by **Claudius** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:09 pm

10 AC is better for fighting melee foes and 10 saves is better for fighting casters. In duels 10 AC is probably better because enemy casters are going to be using no save spells anyhow.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:20 pm

Tricky wrote:You know, about Monks and Paladins..

On general terms what's better, gaining 10 AC or 10 'everything' saves?

That depends entirely on your opponent(s).

In the OC and MOTB (if you are a drow), the 10 AC.

I tried building a character that could defeat any character in the epic build and arena module.. the closest was somewhat similar to what I suggested.

For instance a "Black Dragon" (not a Black Dragon Soul), had such a high AC and parry that I just couldn't physically hit the damn thing (and thats with true strike and a high BAB). But use assay resistance, greater spell breach, followed by Bigby's Crushing Hand and then a few empowered Issac's Missile Storms - and it was fairly easy.

Conversely an "Armored Fist.." kept becoming un-targetable to spells, and seemed virtually immune to everything else but physical damage.

Anyway..

In an epic persistent world *IF* you could get your fortitude saves above 45, AND you have a mental immunity item, AND you have a minimum +15 damage resistant item for elemental damage.. THEN you have something worth shaving your AC. (..and this is particularly true if you have Epic Resilence AND a high Constitution and damage reduction.)

There is of course semi-alternative to a high AC (and it works against casters)..

High Hide and Move Silently skill scores with HiPS.

The character build was a Wizard 23/Cleric5/Shadowdancer1/Monk1..

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:48 am

I see. That means my build kinda specializes in neither. I'm gonna try coming with something different. Thanks for the help guys.

Scottg · Post by **Scottg** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:55 am

Tricky wrote:I see. That means my build kinda specializes in neither. I'm gonna try coming with something different. Thanks for the help guys.

True..

For the OC and MOTB though - it isn't necessary. And I really like Claudius's build, the only problem with it however might be skill points.

Frankly high saves are pretty much redundant there if you have high spell resistance (i.e. either an epic Monk or a racial resistance like the Drow). Even most of the traps seem to be susceptible to spell resistance (spike traps being an obvious exception), and worse *very* few provide enough damage that would actually result in "death".

For perhaps other modules or persistent worlds though, you might well need excellence in either AC or saves. The same goes for the offensive side of things though - either excellent spell casting that can beat very high saves for a given spell OR a very high BAB that can be enhanced with various modifiers and spells.

For actually having fun..

Most of my overall favorite builds have been based on 20 levels of Favored Soul and 5 levels of Frenzied Berserker (with other classes for different "bonuses"). The Favored Soul is IMO the nicest overall class in the game. Good with physical attacks and great with some high level spells (..and superb buffs, many of which can be utilized as persistent). Its just a FUN class to play at ANY level, and depending on your commitment to whatever Deity you have chosen to follow - good role-playing value.