what is the difference between lawful and good? Chaotic and evil?

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:14 pm

In Neverwinter Docks, I chose a few dialogue lines with a GOOD intent. But the alignment shift was towards lawful, especially when doing the sweep.

In other quests, I chose pretty intimidating and unkind words with no consequences towards evil.

And lying is simply evil... or is it? usually gains chaotic.

ANd what does imps got to do with chaos?

FireFox2000 · Post by **FireFox2000** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:19 pm

Lying need not be evil, even good people lie sometimes, that's why it's Chaotic, not much law in lying. And if you're following the law, it's lawful, not necessarily good, even an evil person can follow laws

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:37 pm

Well, getting the watchmen to get their act together is lawful or good?

IMO, its for the good of the people. Getting the politicians to get their act together (Torio).. now that's lawful for me.

For example, getting Valia back to Locke and protecting him is GOOD. Fulfilling your duty is LAWFUL.

I need to be chaotic. Need Berserker levels at level 15 - 20. I am taking heaps of Lawful points trying to be good.

Loki[D.d.G] · Post by **Loki[D.d.G]** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:49 pm

If you wanna be a chaotic character, lie at every opportunity you get. This is guaranteed to give you loads of chaotic points. Plus a few evil points once in a while. If you really need to be of chaotic alignment, then you could always cheat....

fhn3 · Post by **fhn3** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:21 pm

Lawful vs Good and Chaotic vs Evil as I see it

A good character has a kind heart - cares - does what is good, even if the law says not to. Sometimes the Law is run by an evil king or the laws are bad, so a good character does what they think is right, but it may not be lawful. A lawful character need not worry about right or wrong, only what the law says, unless they are lawful, good. A soldier kills by order of the law, even if he thinks it is wrong - he is lawful.
Evil is a character that hates, loves causing pain, killing, stealing, the dark. They only think of themselves, first and last. What's in it for me. They lie, cheat, steal, all to their own gais.A chaotic character is psychologically crazy. Their thinking is chaotic. They are not logical, conisitant. the mood of the moment rules them.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:14 am

sun_facer wrote:Well, getting the watchmen to get their act together is lawful or good?
<snip>

That is lawful, because you "instruct" him to do his duty, and not what is right and good.

However, the "moral" compass of DnD have always been the source of much debate.

darthelema0101 · Post by **darthelema0101** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:50 pm

Xandax wrote:However, the "moral" compass of DnD have always been the source of much debate.

MY impression of that moral compass with how the character dealt with society/individuals.

Good -vs.- Evil references the general well-being of others and how the character acts towards them.
Law -vs.- Chaos references the character's attitudes towards society itself. Emphasis on society is lawful while emphasis on the individual is chaotic.

THUS during the defense of West Harbor:
- allowing the Mossfields to simply die adds to evil while using the swamp moss to aid them adds to good and slitting their throats (even the duegar's) adds a lot to evil.
- stealing Ian's (?) possessions adds to chaos AND evil.

My problem with this is the fact that demonstrably chaotic acts do not affect the char's alignment except for a very FEW scripted acts. Pickpocketing should ALWAYS affect alignment towards chaos and unprovoked attacks should always affect alignment towards evil. Scripted meetings sometimes have this factored in, but not always.

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:45 pm

OK, I like your version.

It's society before self. Order vs Chaos. Acceptable debate.
Does morality necessary mean good?

Why is releasing imps Chaotic?

And isn't breaking someone's neck without allowing her to speak her last words just plain evil?
All it does it lose influence with the self-righteous Pally.

Mentioning the runaway Pally,
he acted on his own. Away from the orders of Neverwinter. Isn't that Chaotic? How can he call himself a Lawful Good Pally?!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:10 am

darthelema0101 wrote:MY impression of that moral compass with how the character dealt with society/individuals.

Good -vs.- Evil references the general well-being of others and how the character acts towards them.
Law -vs.- Chaos references the character's attitudes towards society itself. Emphasis on society is lawful while emphasis on the individual is chaotic.
<snip>

That is also the most common perception of the overall issues, as far as I've seen over the years.

darthelema0101 wrote:<snip>
My problem with this is the fact that demonstrably chaotic acts do not affect the char's alignment except for a very FEW scripted acts. Pickpocketing should ALWAYS affect alignment towards chaos and unprovoked attacks should always affect alignment towards evil. Scripted meetings sometimes have this factored in, but not always.

That is more an issue with the games, then the moral compas as such, because often - very often - these D&D based games are more Good/Evil then Law/Chaos, thus tipping the perception of chaos to being more evil then good... for instance

sun_facer wrote:<snip>
Does morality necessary mean good?

Usually - I'd say yes, because D&D is more black/white then "real life". But it does not mean Lawful for instance.

sun_facer wrote:<snip>
Why is releasing imps Chaotic?
<snip>

Because releasing them is against the "law", whereas it is not evil as such because holding them in captivity is not de facto good.

sun_facer wrote:<snip>
And isn't breaking someone's neck without allowing her to speak her last words just plain evil?
<snip>

That would usually be evil- and if you recall back to the "attack at west harbor" you can kill off one of the duegars which stand in front of the burning barn - and you get an evil point for doing so... despite him being evil.

sun_facer wrote:<snip>
Mentioning the runaway Pally,
he acted on his own. Away from the orders of Neverwinter. Isn't that Chaotic? How can he call himself a Lawful Good Pally?!

Yes, he would be considered chaotic when it comes to this, and I think it is more a flaw of the game then the rules as such.
Remember to differ between the ruleset and the computer games implementation of them. in these games it is possible to play a lying, stealing, cheating paladin for instance ... something a real life DM would slap with a chaotic stamp asap, but where these games are more focused on the Good/evil aspect (as mentioned) then the law/chaos, which I think is mainly due to the convience of focusing mainly one one scale - although some of these games do award chaotic/lawful points now, it is still not with consequence IMO.

shift244 · Post by **shift244** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:00 am

Also a point to note above what the others have posted so far, which is very good, is that in D&D, alignments are more than a measure of Law vs Chaos and Good vs Evil. They are a force of the universe in themselves. Performing an otherwise Lawful act to aid a Chaotic creature would also very well lead you down the Chaotic nature of things... while this holds truer to planar creatures, the effects still influence non-planar creatures like the PC.

So if you cannot grasp that keeping "pets" and "lab-rats" in cages within the city is "lawful"... consider that the Imps are solely out to cause chaos once you've released them...

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:58 pm

Hmm....
I don't like imps. But the enemy of my enemy is my fren. And I sure don't like the snobs in Blacklake in NWN1. Not so sure in NWN2.

Pretty good insights into the game rules regarding alignment. Thank you everyone. Still, I'm slapping on LAW points for being nice in many conversations... pretty irritating.

All I said was, I promised to get you back to the temple... and pow! Law point! Hmm... I don't wish to have a walkthrough unless necessary. But playing it for the first run sure gets me wondering... what am I doing!?

I noticed Bishop's score. It's 0/0. Wow... this fella sure is a big fat zero.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:58 pm

In the game, then many of the situations where it says "lie" is good for a chaotic point or so - however some of them, as you know, do reward an evil as well.
Alignment issues are problems in games because it is difficult to deduct the "true" meaning behind static conversation.

However, you can move through the City Watch path without getting many lawful points. But that does means that you can't be lawful, and encourage people to do their duty.... better to intimidate them or get bribes.

sun_facer · Post by **sun_facer** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:18 am

Yes, that path is where i started taking Law points.
After that, I am constantly watching my LAW/CHAOS meter.

shift244 · Post by **shift244** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:29 am

You see, when you "promise" someone truthfully

Spoiler

I recall the game having options to say the exact same thing but it being a lie

then you're lawful. Especially when you fulfill that promise. Lying tend to get you down chaotic however.

I did play a chaotic good warlock, and I believe, managed down the city watch path and remained almost exclusively neutral/chaotic with the exception of certain conversations where the law/chaos options are more blurred. Do note also that the game scipters have their own understanding which might differ from yours.