Evil Party, Advice Requested.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:50 pm

Evil Party, Advice Requested. (Spoilers)

Greetings fellow RPGers. First post in this forum, anyway. (If want to get to the meat of the post, after the break). Most of my knowledge comes from a long ago playthrough and wandering around Gamefaqs and Sorcerors Net.

Due to considerably boredom over the summer, I've decided to try and play through BGII again, ToB and all. I last played it a good four or five years ago, reached chapter six and more or less dropped it. (played for a good month and a half, reached the vamp nest, and just gave up after getting slaughtered the umpteenth time.) I've decided that since I've fully played every single other D&D RPG, I should try BGII.

I plan to play through it with a mostly evil party, and I'm also aiming for as powerful a party as I can get within the limits of good taste. I aim to use most of the tweak mods found on Weidu's net, and most of the ones on that Pana-what's it called (the name escapes me entirely and I'm too lazy to go look for it.. sorry), the one with the banter pack, Xan Mod, and about a dozen others. Basically, tweak mods, item mods, and AI upgrades only, with maybe an exception for Xan (evil-lish characters are hard to come by, and the mod looks good.) To compensate for the difficulty decrease of the Item Mods on Weidu, I'll probably use most of the AI upgrades I can find, put the difficulty on Core Rules, and maybe use a few encounters from the tactics mod. my general incompetence should do the rest.

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As far as Parties go, since I'm going to be evil, I KNOW I will have Edwin, Viconia, and Korgan. Edwin Odeisseron is the best, (and only pure-class) mage in the game, and I'm a magic hog, so he's in. Korgan is one of the top two meleers, along with Minsc (Keldorn comes in a distant third, with Carsomyr), and V is the only pure Cleric I can get my hands on, as well as being evil.

I think that the developers were trying to tell us something by make all three evil characters so powerful.

For the other two NPCs and my Main Char, I'm torn. I want to have high int and wis so that my main character can have excellent mental stats when using the ring of Human Influence for the various quests. Thus, a cleric or Wizards of some sort seems advisable, though a bard may work as well. (I've never tried a bard, so I can't honestly tell. Though the Minstrels of "Brave Sir Robin" come to mind, and not in a good way. (If you get the reference, congrats, otherwise, I wont explain it)).

Mage or Cleric gives me more fun spells, but a Bard is at least part-rogue, so I could do without getting a thief if I do that. Advice?

For my other NPCs, I'm looking for use, (although between the three evil ones, I pretty much have all the vital bases covered, except thieving and maybe more tanking). I'd like them to be villainous, but with so few evil characters, I'll settle for non-paladiny. (No Keldorn, Anoment, or Nalia...)

Cernd seems interesting. Buff up before battle as a druid, then turn into a raging engine of furry destruction. I like spell-heavy parties, so he can fit there, and solves my tanking needs quite nicely. Plus the true-neutral natury feel is better then a Paladin at tolerating my three evil ones.

Xan from the mod looks interesting. Gloomy, Evil I think, and another Spellcaster. If anyone has used the mod, please tell me if it's as good as the mod-maker claims it is. (He says it has full voice acting, loads of Banter, etc. I'm presuming he lifted it from BGI, though I don't know.) As for him being a Sorceror, the more the merrier. Some of the bugs hinted at in the Mod FAQ scare me a tad.

Minsc could be cool. I had him last time around, and ignoring the bizarre battle cries, was a good member of the party in tandem with Korgan and Were-Cernd. Plus his performance to get you into Spellhold is priceless.

Imoen, I had last time, and frankly, I didn't like her. I already played through this once, so I plan to send her on her way.

well, that's all I can think off at the moment. Advice on party composition will be heartily appreciated.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:18 pm

Minsc will end up turning on you if you do too many evil things, he is Lawful Good. Imoen will stick with you even if you are evil. Jan is CN as is Haer'dalis I think. Do what you think you will enjoy the most.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:18 am

Good point.

I've been looking at alignments all over the place right now, and reading up the old posts. Right now, It looks like I'll have the three evil ones, plus the best two of three of the following:

Cernd: druidy spellcasting, then turn into a massive werewolf and rip people to shreds. Alignment wise, He's true neutral, all about balance and nature, but then he turns into a ravening werewolf bent on tearing open throats. I have the vague feeling that Cernd has some unresolved issues, but thats a post for another time. He'd give me some much needed tanking ability, as right now, I only have Korgan as a tank. Plus the buffs and summons have some potential as well. Plus he irritates all three of the evil chars.

Haer'Dalis: He's a blade/bard, and I honestly have no idea what that entails. Alignment-wise, CN is pretty close to evil, and he is a tiefling, so theres some natural evil in the background. My big question is whether he can substitute as a satisfactory thief or not. As a bard, he has some extra spells to toss around, which is nice. As a blade, he gets the fairly useful spins for after he's buffed up. If he can also pickpocket and remove traps, (all that I require from a thief really, mostly the traps), then he's hired. I can use Knock to take care of locks, but find-traps only shows you traps, doesnt get rid of them like in NWN. I have no idea what his dialogues are like.

Jan: Lessee, Mage-Thief. Alignmentwise, he's CN, but is probably the least potentially evil of the three. He's just a crazy gnome, not a tiefling or werewolf. However, he's a thief, which is something I need. (Why couldn't they have made a decent evil thief???). The extra spellcasting is a bonus. He seems to fit pretty nicely with the party in terms of functionality, but he just seems out of place as far as evil goes.
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My main character will probably take the role of whichever one gets dropped from above. if I ditch Cernd, I'll need tanking ability, so I'll probably grab a fighter or Barb, something I'm not too keen on. (Having my main character have miserable mental stats AND be stuck in the front lines seems to be asking for it). If I ditch Jan, it seems I'll need to get some kind of theif or thief mage, since I'll need some kind of trap and lock removal abilities, unless Haer'Dalis can help there. And if I ditch the Bard, I have no idea what I'll do, probably become a cleric or wizard for spellcasting.

Of the three above, which do you people suggest for an evil party? I've played with Cernd once, and I remember him being quite good, but I never used either of the other two, So I simply don't know which to pick.

SP101 · Post by **SP101** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:12 am

You may want to include Fade in your party.

She's a Chaotic Neutral Elven Tiefling (Fey'ri), single-class thief. She's also romanceable.

http://chosenofmystra.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=14

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:13 pm

Bards can't do traps and locks. Jan can be pretty powerful when used right and always seems to be very useful. I always use him and Imoen together with him being a "disabler" wizard/thief and Imoen being a standard mage. I use Jan primarily as a thief and use his spells accordingly. Those flashers he uses with his crossbow thingy kick butt... and he is quite amusing with the right characters. He picks on Anomen quite a lot. Somehow I always use the same npcs over and over as they work best with my style of play and I always seem to play good. My next trip thru will be with an evil berserker so I can use the evil characters to their fullest. I will be taking:
Me berserker
Jan
Viconia
Edwin
Korgan
and maybe Cernd if he doesn't harp on you for being nasty...

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:32 pm

Great.... that means I am stuck grabbing a thief somewhere, and for all the ka-jillion thieves around, there don't seem to be very many actually good evil-lish ones. (Oxymoron, I know). I checked out the mods, but the Valen mods seems to have some balance issues, and Star-whats-her-name is yet ANOTHEr crazy. (I have plenty as is). Looks like the Gnome is going to be here to stay. Oh well, I suppose Turnips aren't all that bad.

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After much forum-searching, I've decided to just keep things simple. Edwin, Korgan, and Viconia for base characters, plus Minsc and Jan. Jan is CN, and a thief, so that fits, while Minsc, though CG, is not exactly the brightest candle in the chandler's shop, so I daresay my Wizard can talk him into sticking around. Should be interestings. Jan + Minsc + Edwin... yikes.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:46 pm

Dude, just to warn you, Minsc left me when I tried to do an evil character once. If your reputation drops he will leave. He actually attacked me. He is LG.

SP101 · Post by **SP101** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:48 pm

A bit spoilerish... concerning how well Edwin and Minsc go along with each others...

[Highlight to display]
Minsc vs. Edwin

Edwin constantly insults Minsc, their mutual hatred for each other apparent when you meet up with the Red Wizard in Mae'var's Guild. Throughout my game, the mage poked fun at Boo when he wasn't hurling insults at the Ranger outright. Eventually, Edwin goes to far, speaking ill of Dynaheir and blaming her death on Minsc's "ineptitude". When Minsc asks Edwin to take back his words, the mage of course refuses, and they both break away from your party to battle to the death.
[/Highlight to display]

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:50 pm

[QUOTE=Pellinore]Dude, just to warn you, Minsc left me when I tried to do an evil character once. If your reputation drops he will leave. He actually attacked me. He is LG.[/QUOTE]

Unless you have some wierd Mod installed, he's Chaotic Good. And he will leave if your Rep drops below 6, or Edwin is in the party. So Minsc + Edwin = Bad Idea because you will lose both. And you'll NEVER get Edwin back because Minsc slaughters him.

Pellinore · Post by **Pellinore** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:56 pm

I have no mods installed...only what came in the box with TOB. I am quite sure his profile says LG in BG1 but I don't think I ever paid attention in BG2. Could be wrong...has happened before

:laugh: . But, my point is, he will leave. He attacked me when I played a short lived evil thief and my rep hit right around 5...

boo's daddy · Post by **boo's daddy** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:59 am

I'd recommend Jan. He is a useful mage as well as thief and ranged weapon dude, and when/if you get to ToB he will get Use Any Item.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:11 am

Allright, No Minsc. Alternative tanks?

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:24 am

You could always just stick with the 3 evil characters already named, then make yourself a Swashbuckler. That way you get the theiving abilities (alot of people don't see them as important, but being able to pick pocket every item you need helps with the monetary situation

), and what I consider to be an excellent tank at the higher levels - which you should reach quickly with fewer characters to share exp points. Backstab isn't that much of a loss, to be honest. You'd have 2 tanks and 2 very strong spellcasters, and no alignment problems.
Hmm, may do this for my next game

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:27 am

Nice idea, but I'll grab six. One a side note, just how good is Haer'Dalis at tanking? He's a bard, but he's a blade which means he has that defensive and offensive spin. Stoneskin + Defensive Spin?

Personally, I really want to make my character a wizard. I tend to be very spell-heavy, and with a Wizard PC, Edwin to do the heavy lifting and Jan and Haer'Dalis to assisst, that should work out nicely. Still only have a tank and a half with Korgi and the Tiefling, but I suppose thats why Ao made summoning spells. two pure wizards and a cleric should be able to summon up a few nasties to tank.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:35 am

Haer'Dalis can like your other mages use spell combos to make himself invulnerable.
With the overpowered spells they get mages are the best tanks anyway.

I recommend playing a conjurer instead of a pure wizard since more than one source of divination spells is useless. A gnome illusionist could also be nice because of the racial bonusses.

If you want more tanking power you can start as a fighter and dual to mage at level 8-9, 125,000 XP are just 1/3 mage level on the long run. You won't be able to choose level 1-4 spells for free at the beginning however.

A priest of talos9/mage x can also be strong and fun, you can always raise dead party members that way.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:08 am

I'm actually probably going to be a sorceror, to ease up on the scrolls. Between Edwin and Jan, I have one person to whom to give priority scrolls, and one who gets all the second versions. Seems to me that adding another wizard to that might cause some issues with everyone having fewer different spells. Not really a big deal considering everyone can specialize, but being a Sorceror avoids the problem to begin with.

I might be a cleric instead, but I already have V as a cleric, and I'm not sure if you actually want two clerics as opposed to two mages.

On a side note, Haer'Dalis seems to be hired. Sorry Cernd, maybe next time.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:15 pm

Use a Sorceror if you wan't to use magic. They get to cast more spells per day but get slightly less variety. Not a big loss.

I'm currently having a blast with a Wild Mage though. For some reason, I have goten around 10 random Wild Surges and only one of them had a negative effect, being that I summoned a Nabassu(demon). Had to reload there

. Plus, Wild Mages gain more spells when they level up IIRC, and start out with more spells than other Mages. Though for powergaming, go with the good ol' Sorceror.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:33 pm

Right now I'm looking at the darkest day mod, with the fifty or so kits it adds. I'll probably end up being a simple Sorceror, but some of those things look interesting.

Right now I'm playing Shattered Union, wargame, fairly interesting. Once I finish it, I'll start up BGII, so right now I'm content to just gather up comments here.

Recap: As of the moment, my party is going to look like this:

Mage-type PC, Probably Sorceror: Mega-high mental stats, loads of spells. get the ring of Human Influence and I can con just about anyone into doing anything.

Korgan: Dwarf with an axe and a grudge. What more is there to say? Tank.

Jan; Lunatic Gnome. Main thief and tertiary mage. Handles all the thief-skills except Pickpocket (Which is HD's job) and Lockpick, (with three mages, I can afford some Knocks.) In battle I'll probably have him help with the buffing/debuffing and then just shoot that crossbow of his.

Edwin: More spell-casting goodness.

Viconia: Cleric. Everyone needs one. Later on I'll probably give her some heavy armor, a belt of giant strength, and make her a tertiary tank. Don't deal damage, just make sure that me and Edwin don't get killed.

Haer'Dalis. Abilities are useful, (a few pickpockets to get stuff, and lore to ease up on the identifies). Have him cast his bard spells, then go spinning around crazily. Offensive for taking out weak things or single units that are hitting Korgan, Defensive to take the heat off the mages who are going to be pummeling things.

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On paper at least, it looks good. However, in all honesty I have NOT played BG for several years, and I'm real not very good with 2nd Edition rules. (I know 3rd Quite well, but AD&D still confuses me at times.)

I'm a bit low on tanks, with only a single person that can really take dmg, but between summons and Haer'Dalis and Viconia (later in the game), I think I'm set. Loads of spellcasters, which is nice, and I think I have all the thieving stuff covered.

Basically a question to everyone: Am I missing anything?

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:24 pm

To answer your question: That is good for SOA, though you could use more Tanks. But for TOB, you are missing something. There is one more Evil NPC, and guess what? He's a Tank. Lucky you. You will probably wan't to ditch Haer' Dalis for Sarevok in TOB because you will have enough magic to last, even though Jan probably won't get level 9 spells.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:10 pm

Duly noted, though I'll cross that bridge when I get to ToB.

In the meantime, the problem is that there just aren't enough good evil tanks in SoA. Korgan is excellent, but he's the only one, whereas the good guys get Minsc and Keldorn, both nearly as good as Korgan, plus Mazzy, Valygar, and Anomen, who aren't all that bad either. Cernd and Haer'Dalis are neutral.. but neither is a wonderful tank. Oh well. I honestly don't see any workaround except heaps and heaps of summons. Hopefully if I give each of my casters a summon spell, thats four summons per battle, two of them high-level mage summons. Since virtually every summon is melee, (aside from some specialized ones), that should work out nicely. And later on? Viconia casts protection from evil, and then a pair of gate spells. I think the enemy will be too busy to try and get my wizards. (tee hee).

By the by, is Jan a dual-class or a multi-class? In other words, will he keep getting thief levels or is he a mage from here on in?