Druids : Shapeshifter kit

Sinner · Post by **Sinner** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 3:40 am

Just a few esy questions that ive been thinking about.

Firstly are they any good? I mean that since they dont use any weapons that you give them they rely only on the werewolf form and from what i can tell they suck in human form (No arma!).

Also is there anything that i can give them in human form to counter this weakness?

Would i be right in assuming that they are considered a front line fighting class?

If so why do they have so few hp?

And finaly do you get anything outta having the druid stronghold?

Sinner.

LVL 13 Shapeshifter.

I know it abit late in the game to be asking these questions but when else can i?

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 4:22 am

Good? Yes, if you like druids.

Give them Bracers of AC 3 and a Ring of Protection + 2 and you got the same AC as with the Shadow Dragon Scales.

No, they are no front line fighters. They do well in the back, though, guarding mages and adding some extra support.

You get the title Great Druid and the Lion Figurine.

ReignsOfPower · Post by **ReignsOfPower** » Tue Aug 21, 2001 11:59 pm

What does the Lion Figurine do?

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:12 am

Originally posted by ReignsOfPower:
What does the Lion Figurine do?

Calls forth a lion for five minutes per day, I believe. Apparently, this lion isn't particularly good (has no extra abilities like the Moon Dog) but still, it's pretty cool.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:42 am

This is slightly off topic, but it does concern druids. I was going to change jaheira in my next hacked and cheated party, and dual her to totemic druid and fighter. I have read the posts, and Sinner, most people, except those in love with shpeshifting, say the totemic druid is the best druid class to play. Apparently the spirit animals are extremely powerful, but their attacks are not "Magical" weapons, so if you send one against a creatuer immune to normal weapons, like liches, you have problems. was this fixed in TOB full eng. patch?

Anyway, back to topic. a lot of people in various druid forums say unequivocally that shapechange is not a good ability. Apparently, if you want a really good shapechange go for mage and the spell. I've tried the iron golem with imp haste and it was quite powerful, shrugging off spells like crazy. But the druid shapeshifts don't seem very good, except possibly greater elemental transform with a multi fighter with greater whirlwind. The next tiem I play jeheira I am going to avoid storm of vengence and mass ressurrect, those are quite properly viccy, my sweetie's abilities and she gets more slots anyway due to her higher wisdom, and go for greater elemental summoning and elemental transform. that in particular is really nice since it comes as an innate ability and doesn not use up one of her very few 7th spell slots.

Anyway, the totem animals look cool, or did in the druid grove, tho my ranks of skeleton warriors chopped them up good anyway, and are very powerful and quite immune to charm and dominate.

This makes them very useful, and the threads I have read they have a high magic resist and are very fast and lethal, like m swords.

I'd say if you want to explore the druid class, look to totemic druids and wait for the quest spells to shapeshift. I've only used jahiera's shpaeshift only once, to battle faldorn, and since I run a summon heavy party, want the extra capability rather than risking my precious druid in dirty nasty hand to hand, which will break jaheira's nails and make her sweaty and itchy. I mean, she's the only npc that can cast creeping doom, and nature's beauty (can you say non saveable mass blindness?) and later the greater elemental summoning...though that whimp elemental prince of earth lost it against demo gorgon and tried to run away, had ssaverok kill him for cowardice, I hate summons that whimp out on me!!!

Anyway the planetars won the day, my vote for the best summons ever, the only worry I have is will they work against mind flayers? If not my usual skeleton warriors should do the trick.

My philosophy is the spells that an npc has really multiply their worth, and unless you've got the special items to equip my (usually) only tank for a special job, I'd rather send in a summon every time. Summons are expendable and the spirit animals are apparently very fast, nasty and immune to a lot of things. I'm willing to live with the non-magic attacks, supposedly the wolf is a +5 non magical weapon, and the spirit snake is got a really nasty poison attack, and the lion is much much better than the kitty from the golden lion figurine.

Heck, just for the poison capability alone in the spirit snake I'd say the totem druid should be more fun.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:43 am

This is slightly off topic, but it does concern druids. I was going to change jaheira in my next hacked and cheated party, and dual her to totemic druid and fighter. I have read the posts, and Sinner, most people, except those in love with shpeshifting, say the totemic druid is the best druid class to play. Apparently the spirit animals are extremely powerful, but their attacks are not "Magical" weapons, so if you send one against a creatuer immune to normal weapons, like liches, you have problems. was this fixed in TOB full eng. patch?

Anyway, back to topic. a lot of people in various druid forums say unequivocally that shapechange is not a good ability. Apparently, if you want a really good shapechange go for mage and the spell. I've tried the iron golem with imp haste and it was quite powerful, shrugging off spells like crazy. But the druid shapeshifts don't seem very good, except possibly greater elemental transform with a multi fighter with greater whirlwind. The next tiem I play jeheira I am going to avoid storm of vengence and mass ressurrect, those are quite properly viccy, my sweetie's abilities and she gets more slots anyway due to her higher wisdom, and go for greater elemental summoning and elemental transform. that in particular is really nice since it comes as an innate ability and doesn not use up one of her very few 7th spell slots.

Anyway, the totem animals look cool, or did in the druid grove, tho my ranks of skeleton warriors chopped them up good anyway, and are very powerful and quite immune to charm and dominate.

This makes them very useful, and the threads I have read they have a high magic resist and are very fast and lethal, like m swords.

I'd say if you want to explore the druid class, look to totemic druids and wait for the quest spells to shapeshift. I've only used jahiera's shpaeshift only once, to battle faldorn, and since I run a summon heavy party, want the extra capability rather than risking my precious druid in dirty nasty hand to hand, which will break jaheira's nails and make her sweaty and itchy. I mean, she's the only npc that can cast creeping doom, and nature's beauty (can you say non saveable mass blindness?) and later the greater elemental summoning...though that whimp elemental prince of earth lost it against demo gorgon and tried to run away, had ssaverok kill him for cowardice, I hate summons that whimp out on me!!!

Anyway the planetars won the day, my vote for the best summons ever, the only worry I have is will they work against mind flayers? If not my usual skeleton warriors should do the trick.

My philosophy is the spells that an npc has really multiply their worth, and unless you've got the special items to equip my (usually) only tank for a special job, I'd rather send in a summon every time. Summons are expendable and the spirit animals are apparently very fast, nasty and immune to a lot of things. I'm willing to live with the non-magic attacks, supposedly the wolf is a +5 non magical weapon, and the spirit snake is got a really nasty poison attack, and the lion is much much better than the kitty from the golden lion figurine.

Heck, just for the poison capability alone in the spirit snake I'd say the totem druid should be more fun.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:45 am

Sorry for he double post, had problems refreshing my page and had to do it twice.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:05 am

Without ToB installed, I found the Greater Werewolf form weak. With the modifications made by ToB, I found it to be more powerful than either of the elemental transformations, not to mention that it also has better resistances and AC.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:14 am

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly:
[QB]I have read the posts, and Sinner, most people, except those in love with shpeshifting, say the totemic druid is the best druid class to play.

Anyway, back to topic. a lot of people in various druid forums say unequivocally that shapechange is not a good ability. Apparently, if you want a really good shapechange go for mage and the spell.

I've only used jahiera's shpaeshift only once, to battle faldorn,

... want the extra capability rather than risking my precious druid in dirty nasty hand to hand, which will break jaheira's nails and make her sweaty and itchy. I mean, she's the only npc that can cast creeping doom, and nature's beauty (can you say non saveable mass blindness?) and later the greater elemental summoning...
QB]

Totemic Druids might be the "best" kit, but not necessarily the most fun to play. I actually prefer the Avenger. The - 2 penalty to Str end Con doesn't bother me since a Str of 16 is OK and there is no real advantage for a druid to have a Con above 16 anyway. The Sword Spider form is excellent, especially against Mages with Stoneskin, thanks to the many attacks (and then the poison to that). Then all those excellent spells: Chromatic Orb at higher levels works as a lesser version of Finger of Death. Have your Mages throw a few Greater Malison and the Chromatic Orbs kill like crazy. If you have a high enough Wis you'll have more than enough of them, too. Improved Invisibility is a great spell, as is the Chain Lightning.

Correct. The *standard* shapeshift (into a bear or a wolf) is not good. The Greater Werewolf (and the aforementioned Sword Spider) is though. A Str of 21 gives great bonuses to damage. Base AC of - 10 and then add bonuses from Rings, Cloaks and Ioun Stones/Helmets. The Mage Spell is very good. But when do you get it? And how many can you memorize per day? And if you do, what other spells do you have to forsake?

Jaheira has no shapechanging abilities except the standard ones at that point. Still, even then it's better to shapechange.

Jaheira is *not* the only NPC with those spells. Have you forgoten about Cernd. He'll get a lot more, and earlier, of those spells, too.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Astafas ]

Rodo · Post by **Rodo** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:15 am

Concerning Shapeshifter,
In my last game I used Cernd and I have to say that if only his werewolf/greater werewolf attacks counted as magical weapons then he would have been unstoppable.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 2:30 am

I was not aware that tob made the greater werewolf transform better! That totally changes my views on shpeshifting to them!

The really killer ability of the werewolf is obviously the great attacks and killer regen. hmmm.... I might go for jahira as a shapeshifter fighter. just imagine a greater werewolf coming at you with greater whirlwind on. So how much better is greater werewolf with tob installed? I;ve heard the biggest complaint before adding tob is no increase in thalco to fit the stats for werewolf, and if the shapeshift ot werewolf really substantually raises your stats, this might be worth exploring.

I also forgot about avenger's mage spells. But I personally play sorceror always, and so never think of my clerics with extra mage spells. agree about chromatic orb, heard it take out dragons. I don;t like it as much as finger of seath, tho. I usually use summoned infantry to do most of my battles, and my precious sorc would rarely cast spells except when fighting really nasty monsters like liches. Now, this is soemthing most peopel are not aware of. liches are actually immune to spells below a certain level. I thinks its around 7th or so, so even with a greater malison a chromatic orb is useless against liches.

Hmm, so with tob greaterwerewolves are killers, eh? Will have to check the stats. Oh yeah, Cernd is not a char I like at all, imagine a guy running off deserting wife and child to be Nature boy! No way I am having a putz like that in my party!!!

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 4:51 am

Originally posted by Astafas:
Chromatic Orb at higher levels works as a lesser version of Finger of Death. Have your Mages throw a few Greater Malison and the Chromatic Orbs kill like crazy.

Like a Finger of Death with an 8 point difference in save penalties, yes.

And no, Greater Malisons do not stack...

Originally posted by Astafas:
Jaheira has no shapechanging abilities except the standard ones at that point. Still, even then it's better to shapechange.

She does better while shapechanged than with Belm +2, the Fortress Shield and the Plate of Balduran (or such)?

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 5:22 am

Greater Malisons don't stack? I better stop throwing them in pairs, then.

Honestly, I've heard they do stack but if you're sure...

Still, since you can get som many Chromatic Orbs they're still quite efficient. You can always throw one Greater Malison first (but that goes for Finger of Death, too, of course).

It's possible to protect yourself from Finger of Death with a Death Ward, right? But does Death Ward works against Chromatic Orb?

speedball · Post by **speedball** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:56 am

IIRC, Greater Malisons do not stack, but Doom does. I've heard about putting 3 Dooms in a spell sequencer against tough baddies, like dragons. Never done it myself (since only Aerie or a cleric/mage PC can do it and I've never used either) but I've read that it works wonders for getting those "save or else" spells to work.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:21 am

Well, an Avenger could always save a few slots for Doom and throw them one by one. If the battle lasts long enough, of course.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:42 am

Originally posted by Xyx:
She does better while shapechanged than with Belm +2, the Fortress Shield and the Plate of Balduran (or such)?

Hell, no. But for the fight with Faldorn she's stripped of all items. *Then* it's better to shapechange.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:55 am

Greater Malison gives protection from itself. Doom doesn't but it has been confirmed by Bioware that stacking spells that do not specifically state that they can be stacked is a bug. Baldurdash has a fix for Doom, among many others.

seanthony · Post by **seanthony** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:16 am

haha .. finally, a thread regarding Druids (my fav class). Erm, I've made a Shapeshifter in SoA before, and it was quite fun. It wasn't that bad/hard as ppl made it out to be, however, nearing the end of the game, my "super" Greater Werewof wasnt that super any more! haha initially the shapeshifting ability is good (ie. Ch 1-3), but after that, no.

But yeah, Avengers would be pretty good.. but for Totemic Druids.. er.. are the spirits THAT good? Hmm.. I need to try it out (if time permits! haha). But yeah, Avengers would be my fav Druidic class.. but the -2 str hurts a little.

And regarding to the original post, NO, Druid (if I am not mistaken) WOULD have had the same HP as a normal fighter (as they also use d10 die).

And yeah, Jaheira with Belm +2, Balduran armour and Fortress Shield = Druidic god! haha... actually, that was EXACTLY what my Jaheira was using the last time round (with a druidic staff which gives an extra 6th and 7th level spells).

But serious, play a druid.. it should be fun. I havent exported my Shapeshifter druid on to ToB, coz I dont really have the time now, but i DO hope that its Thaco and AC will increase. Does anyone SPECIFICALLY have the ToB stats for a Shapeshifter?

Oh oh.. and yes, the Elemental transformation was good (I only tried it once, in Ch7 when Jaheira FINALLY got it).

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:36 pm

I know we have a ToB forum, but this seems to be the place to ask anyway... Shapeshifter is improved for ToB, but how about Avenger and Totemic Druid? Those Sword Spiders and Spirit Lions don't sound like they would last more than a round in the average ToB fight...

Originally posted by Eleshar:
Druid (if I am not mistaken) WOULD have had the same HP as a normal fighter (as they also use d10 die).

Druid = priest = 1d8. And no bonus for Constitution 17+.