party idea, please lmk what you think

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:23 am

you will probably see a bit more influence from silverdragon on this idea, let me know what you think:

1) aasimar fighter 4/paladin x -- tank, can use a lot of stuff will go pal1->ftr2->pal3->ftr4->palx
2) female drow monk 3/ranger 2/dreadmaster x -- backup cleric, good dualwielding fighter. will go ranger 2-> monk3 -> dreadmaster x
3) shield dwarf battleguard x -- main cleric. could add in a barbarian level in HOF mode for the better speed.
4) male drow rogue 1/wizard x -- will probably go to rogue 2 for evasion, but not until i get 20 wizard levels rogue 1-> wiz20 -> rogue2-> wiz 28
5) aasimar paladin 2/sorcerer x -- i want my spells asap, so i dont think i will add the paladin levels until HOF (or at least until the point where paladins get bonus stats)
6) human bard 11/druid 19 -- my diplomat. he has 14 int, 16 wis, 16 cha starting, and will max out all of the talky skills. i want to go bard 1->druid 1-> bard 11 -> druid x

with #2, since drow get proficiency with longswrods automatically, would i be more powerful skipping those ranger levels and just buying the ambi/twf feats myself? I mean, i would use a largesword/shortsword or /dagger twf style, and thats pretty good.

with #4, am I better off making him a deep gnome, and adding 1 level of cleric and going illusionist instead of wizard? This character is a backup mage, so I'm not as concerned with having the highest spell possible. I'm more concerned with making sure I can cast the spells my sorcerer doesnt get.

I like the fact that every character, from the start, is good with a missile weapon. i know archery isnt great in this game, but it sure softens up enemies before they get close, and an enemy that cant hit you cant hurt you.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:10 pm

.

1.: consider that only a pal of helm can mix-in fighter levels - as it seems that you want to build a power-party I don't know for what all the pal levels should be good for - a fighter cleric (eventually with 3 monk & 2 or 3 pal levels) is absolutely superior to a pal 26!

2.: would take 2 or 4 fighter levels instead of the 2 ranger levels! 2 fighter levels gives 2 bonus feats - 2 ranger levels 2 feats you can only use not wearing medium or heavy armor!

3.: definetly not my choice (drows are much better clerics then dwarfs) - btw. your party is getting quite divine?

4.: would take the 2nd and eventually the 3rd rogue level asap! Evasion is just to good to miss! Wouldn't go for 28 wiz - 20 wiz is enough! Wouldn't specialize him if this is should be the back-up for your sorc!

5.: starting with the 2 Pal levels you will get an excellent tank for most of the normal game! Especially against golems this is the best melee PC (MI)you will have in your party! Can use an x-bow right away from the beginning!

6.: unmodded the best choice for a speaker!

concerning dual-wield: would give most melee fighter dual-wild & ambidex (but not via ranger!) - as there are no good shields and some quite good 2nd hand weapons you can find!

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krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:38 pm

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:39 pm

1) i just wanted a classic knight in shining armor. this is a good build for that.

2) right, and since this character will never wear armor and I want to dualweild, the favored enemy puts the ranger over the fighter. besides, ive decided to go "more spellcasty" with this one, and will go ranger 1/monk 1/dreadmaster x (maybe add in 2 fighter much later on if i want feats).

3) i know

i wanted a tough healer who will have her spells asap

4) does evasion really matter for a character who wont ever be on the front lines (unless i screw up)?

5) same as 4, i dont want a tank here. i want a spellchucker!

6) thanks! no mods for me on first run-through!

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:49 pm

.

SPOILERs ahead:

1. good luck with finding a good shining heavy armor!

2. if ranger you should choose trolls

4. evasion is just great against most area afffect spells if you have enough DEX!

5. have fun in the ice-temple, the monastry tomb and against the guardian: the pal 2 - sorc X was the best way to deal with these battles (the last 2 being the hardest 2 battles in IWD2)

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krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:25 pm

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

5. have fun in the ice-temple, the monastry tomb and against the guardian: the pal 2 - sorc X was the best way to deal with these battles (the last 2 being the hardest 2 battles in IWD2)

.[/QUOTE]
While I really appreciate all the advice you give, this comment comes across a bit condescending. With the experience you have with this game, I would bet that your party is more powerful than the one i put forth. I would also be willing to bet that lesser parties than mine have beaten this game, and I think i will be ok.

Since I'm set on having a armor wearing muscle-tank (c'mon now, it's a fantasy staple!), would I be better served replacing that paladin with a barbarian?

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:34 am

Just go ahead and play. You will find out what works for you and your play style. Your party as listed in the introductory post is just fine.

Don't get hung up on allocating all 30 of each character's potential levels. By the time you get that high, you may want to change things up anyway. Planning is all well and good, but you need some gaming experience in IWD2 to really figure out what works best for you. I wouldn't really recommend planning on taking your first party to HoF.

Rather than trying to come up with the best possible party, just go with what you think will be fun and reasonably effective. I agree with Silverdragon that the pally2/sorc is a strong character, but a pure sorc isn't chopped liver.

I didn't read SD's post as condescending. You've asked for advice multiple times, and he was merely providing examples of areas where, in his opinion, a pally/sorc with early paladin levels has a significant advantage over the build you proposed.

Instead of just asking tons of questions, why not get your party going so you can add game experience and experiment a bit? That's the best way to learn. Every party is theoretically capable of beating the game, and every party has weaknesses.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:09 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]While I really appreciate all the advice you give, this comment comes across a bit condescending. With the experience you have with this game, I would bet that your party is more powerful than the one i put forth. I would also be willing to bet that lesser parties than mine have beaten this game, and I think i will be ok.

Since I'm set on having a armor wearing muscle-tank (c'mon now, it's a fantasy staple!), would I be better served replacing that paladin with a barbarian?[/QUOTE]

...you can beat the (normal) game with almost every party

...especially as you can avoid fighting the golem's in the tomb and the guardian...

...you also could reduce the difficulty level...

...or cheat with the kegg-slayer in HOF-mode against golems

....would be really interesting to know how many parties really beat these two battles on hardest setting (and without cheating) in normal and especially in HOF

...no matter if you have a barb or a pal - heavy armor (and shields also) are the worst selection I've ever seen in and D&D CRPG!

.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:19 am

You are right, aerich, I am just going to go for it.

BTW, if I went Barb instead of Pal, I would wear medium armor so i could run faster, and use a greatsword or greataxe

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:03 pm

Good choice.

That's the main benefit to Barb over Pally, in my estimation. Because the Pally has to take longswords for maximum benefit later in the game, it can be hard to justify putting feats into other weapons. In contrast, the Barb is just a damage fiend (dishing and eating) who can take any two-handed weapon without worrying overly about advantages later in the game.

One key to surviving this game is to recognize that any tank, no matter the class and stats, can get overwhelmed. Proper use of spells and tactics are much more important to party survival than how uber each individual character is.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:15 pm

Hmmm. Considering I haven't actually started this party up yet (I was planning on getting into it tonight, but work got in the way), and hearing what SD has to say about Heavy Armor basically sucking, I'm starting to consider a different spellsword build. How does this look for a spellsword?:

Wild Elf
Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Rogue 3/ Sorcerer 23 (or add 2 levels of Ranger and go Sorc 21)

OR

male drow
Fighter 2/Paladin2/Rogue 3/Wizard 23

I don't know which packs more punch. The drow is a more powerful race, and the wizard adds more feats (negating the need for ranger levels), but the Wild Elf allows me to punt INT and WIS, allowing me to better distribute my stats.

Either way, every character in my party will be a spellcaster if I go this route, which isn't a bad thing.

I read your power party thread, SD, but I prefer more than two warrior type levels in my "tanks." I know a more experienced player probably doesn't "need" those levels, but I feel that I do.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:28 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]Hmmm. Considering I haven't actually started this party up yet (I was planning on getting into it tonight, but work got in the way), and hearing what SD has to say about Heavy Armor basically sucking, I'm starting to consider a different spellsword build. How does this look for a spellsword?:

Wild Elf
Fighter 2/Paladin 2/Rogue 3/ Sorcerer 23 (or add 2 levels of Ranger and go Sorc 21)

OR

male drow
Fighter 2/Paladin2/Rogue 3/Wizard 23

I don't know which packs more punch. The drow is a more powerful race, and the wizard adds more feats (negating the need for ranger levels), but the Wild Elf allows me to punt INT and WIS, allowing me to better distribute my stats.

Either way, every character in my party will be a spellcaster if I go this route, which isn't a bad thing.

I read your power party thread, SD, but I prefer more than two warrior type levels in my "tanks." I know a more experienced player probably doesn't "need" those levels, but I feel that I do.[/QUOTE]

...don't understand how the the 2 Pal levels fit into the 2nd build...

...I would take 3 barb levels instead and maybe give the fighter 2 additional levels - 20 wiz is more then enough from my point of view

EDIT: all party members having caster levels, will make your party quite powerfull in HOF!

.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:34 am

Well, the Paladin levels fit into either build because I'd like to be able to use the Holy Avenger when I finally get my grubby hands on it.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:23 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]Well, the Paladin levels fit into either build because I'd like to be able to use the Holy Avenger when I finally get my grubby hands on it.

[/QUOTE]

...ever thought about tenser and M-sword or BBD for this build?

Holy Avenger is nice - but not necessarily for a drow that already has a natural SR!

better give HA to the aasimar pal sorc or another build without natural SR!

.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:53 pm

Heavy armor does not suck. It is a requirement for any character without near-max Dex or spell defences. It takes a while to get the decent (read: enchanted) heavy armors, but they are fine for the normal game. The game wouldn't be much challenge if enemies couldn't hit your tank except on a critical, now would it?

Honestly, start playing already. It takes the entire game to get 16-20 levels, so it's premature to allocate all your levels before you get them. It's like selling the chickens that haven't hatched yet. Considering that you appear to have an inveterate "tinkering" mentality, it is very, very, very likely that you will change your mind about what you want after you've played for a while. I've been there.

Remember what I said about tactics over class and stats? Trust me on that. Unless you are going to go directly to HoF after you finish, which is one heck of a commitment to make before you've even started playing on normal, there's really no need to plan every level-up with utmost care. Pick a Barb for power or a Pally for the extras, add a few fighter levels if so inclined, and get fighting. It's not rocket science.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:13 pm

Thanks, Aerich.

I've started playing tonight. I've been playing for a few hours(on and off), but needed a break. I am almost done with the Prologue, and I'm having fun!

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:31 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]

Thanks, Aerich.

I've started playing tonight. I've been playing for a few hours(on and off), but needed a break. I am almost done with the Prologue, and I'm having fun!

[/QUOTE]

btw. krunchyfrogg, with which party set-up did you start the game?

...and how does it work so far?

.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:32 pm

I'm playing the following party:

1) CG Male Drow Fighter 4/Ranger 3/Barbarian 3/Rogue 3/Wizard 17

-very similar to your tank build. This guy will be my main tank, and won't gain more than 1 level of Wizard (if that) in the regular run through of the game. If I add 1 Wizard level, it will be for the Will save bonus. I plan on wearing some light armor, until I start gaining Wizard levels. I also need to look into which spells I'll really want (since this is my 3rd-string arcane spellcaster, 4th if you count the Bard), and will probably specialize. The order of classes really doesn't matter, outside of the Rogue coming 1st, and the Wizard last, avoiding XP penalties along the way.

2) LN Female Drow Monk 3/Ranger 2/Dreadmaster of Bane 25

-dualweilding tank, and backup Cleric. With a maxxed out Wisdom, I expect this character to have the best AC in my party. Ranger 2 -> Monk 3 -> Dreadmaster X

3) CG Dwarf Battleguard of Tempus

-main Cleric, and a good tank as well with the heavy armor and axe focus in the initial run-through of the game. I'm fiddling with the idea of adding a level of Rogue and/or Bard for the save bonuses, but I'm not sure. If I find nice meduim armor, I might add a level of Barbarian for the added speed, and a level or two of Fighter is a possibility as well. If I ever do add any levels of a class other than Cleric, it will happen after Cleric 20.

4) CG Male Drow Rogue 3/Wizard 25/Barbarian 1/Bard 1

-2nd string offensive spellcaster/loremaster/rogue. This guy handles all traps and locks, and will be an offensive spellcasting force (eventually). The 3rd Rogue level will be added at the very end, right before the Barbarian level (which is there for the save bonus and speed bonus). The plan is to go Rogue 2 -> Wizard 20 -> Bard 1 -> Wizard 25 -> Barbarian 1 -> Rogue 3.

5) LG Aasimar Paladin 2/Sorcerer 25/ Monk 3.

-main spellchucker. Lots of firepower here, and will probably always make her saves because of the high Charisma and Paladin levels. The Monk levels are to be added last, and are good for the Evasion ability. I need to check up on this though, because if Evasion is negated by wearing robes, I'll just go to Sorcerer 28 instead.

6) NG Human Bard 11/Druid 19

-diplomat. This character is maxxed out in all the talking skills. The physical stats stink, and even though I'm unwilling to use mods, the animal shapes will be better options if this guy must enter combat than staying in human form. This guy will eventually use a few Armored Arcana feats, and is a good backup spellcaster for both the arcane and divine spellcasters in the party. He's the weakest combat type in my party for most of the game, but that's alright. He'll be sniping with a crossbow when not casting, and since Lingering Song was his first feat, he'll always be helping the rest of the party in some fashion. I've done some searching around online, and with a 14Int 14Wis and 16Char, all dialogues will be open to this character. I had two points left over, and sunk them into Wisdom since this character is primarily a Druid in the end.

He's built like this: Bard 1 -> Druid 1 -> Bard 11 -> Druid 19.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:22 am

It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that a high Strength character benefits much more from a weapon like a greatsword than he does from dual- weilding two weapons. I might still keep those Ranger levels for added BAB and HP, as well as that favored enemy bonus, but I don't think I'll really be dual-weilding too much with that 1st character.

Although, with the added 2d6 sneak attack damage bonus, maybe I would be better off with two weapons. I really haven't decided yet.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:19 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]It's becoming increasingly obvious to me that a high Strength character benefits much more from a weapon like a greatsword than he does from dual- weilding two weapons. I might still keep those Ranger levels for added BAB and HP, as well as that favored enemy bonus, but I don't think I'll really be dual-weilding too much with that 1st character.

Although, with the added 2d6 sneak attack damage bonus, maybe I would be better off with two weapons. I really haven't decided yet.[/QUOTE]

...just looking on the 3rd edition rules 2-handed weapons might be equal or even better...

...but in IWD2 I would prefer 2-weapon fighting, due to the items you find!

btw.: even with maxed out 5 attacks per round the off-hand attack has a much better BAB then the 4th (if hasted) or 5th attack you get from a high BAB-build!

...and AFAIR you also get an additional the sneak attack for your off-hand attack (or was this in ToEE?) - together with ehnhanced (elemental) damage effect weapons you do alltogether much more damage then with a 2-handed weapon!

-------------------------------

just a few comments on your final party...

...even if you certainly won't get in to much trouble with this set-up:

1.: reaching about L10 you will see that this build is already that powerfull that it will more benefit from MI then from another non-caster level!

2.: 25 cleric level are to much from my point of view - especially for your 2nd tank and back-up divine caster!

...think about adding rogue, barb or fighter levels and eventually skip the ranger therefore

3.: your choice - but being CG you can't even add any Pal levels! (HA-quest!)

4.: 25 wiz are also a bit to much - for what did you add the bard level?!

5.: if you add the monk levels late you can just skip them - that late in the game you won't need evasion for this build!

I would eventually add rogue levels earlier - as this gives you definetly evasion with robes (not 100% sure about the monk evasion) and AFAIR you will find a rogue-only CHA increasing item!

6.: best possible build unmodded - btw. if you change your mind, you can install the mod at every point of the game...

...but then go for 21 - as this is quite fun!

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