Use any item ability - how it should be

Path of Wind · Post by **Path of Wind** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 5:53 pm

I agree that in its present form Use any Item is overkill. I would like that Bioware would modify this ability: it would be much more balanced and interesting, that thief could pick this ability not once, but many times at every level up, however every time thief could learn the use of only one item. Say, thief leveling up, get this ability, and uses it for casting of spells from scrolls. Or using gauntlets of expertise. If you want to use anything else, well wait for the next level. What do you people think?

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 5:58 pm

Thieves need Use Any Item as it is so as to keep on par with other classes. Their new traps are only good for munchkin tactics.

Path of Wind · Post by **Path of Wind** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 6:05 pm

Originally posted by Johnny:
Thieves need Use Any Item as it is so as to keep on par with other classes. Their new traps are only good for munchkin tactics.

Yes, but for dualled thieves it becomes too powerfull. Wizards Slayers, for example, can start use any Magic item with a single pick, it would make more interesting to force a player think which item is more important, and which can wait.

[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Path of Wind ]

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 6:12 pm

Originally posted by Path of Wind:
I agree that in its present form Use any Item is overkill. I would like that Bioware would modify this ability: it would be much more balanced and interesting, that thief could pick this ability not once, but many times at every level up, however every time thief could learn the use of only one item. Say, thief leveling up, get this ability, and uses it for casting of spells from scrolls. Or using gauntlets of expertise. If you want to use anything else, well wait for the next level. What do you people think?

Interesting!
But I prefer to remove this ability from the thief and keep the ability for the Bard(Bards can Use any Item-restricted by your new rules).
And remove the Spike/Time/Explode traps of the bards and only the thief keep setting traps.

Path of Wind · Post by **Path of Wind** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 7:26 pm

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:

Interesting!
But I prefer to remove this ability from the thief and keep the ability for the Bard(Bards can Use any Item-restricted by your new rules).
And remove the Spike/Time/Explode traps of the bards and only the thief keep setting traps.

Agree about bards. However I would keep this for thieves though, this ability is what keeping thiefs good enough for ToB. Although I would add another restriction. Kensai/Thief learning how to use helmet because of being partly rougue - it is believable. Cleric/Thief starting to use Katana - is unbielievable, because it is against the very IDEA of being priest.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Fri Aug 17, 2001 7:43 pm

Originally posted by Path of Wind:
Kensai/Thief learning how to use helmet because of being partly rougue - it is believable.

I wouldn't think so... Kensai/Cleric still can't wear a helmet, even though Clerics learn to use all armors. The Use Any Item exploits are pure laziness on the part of the designers.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 2:27 am

Well, even if thieves can wield forbidden weapons and stuff, they still cannot access all the other high-level abilities like Whirlwind and their Thac0 isn't on par, so this is not as all-empowering as one may think. This makes the thief versatile and allows the party to make use of that one needed item to they couldn't before.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 3:33 am

if they were going to restrict it, the best way imo is, multi & duals can't learn this ability.

a single class thief in tob needs every advantage he/she/it is given.

this only becomes a power ability in a dual class, and to a much lesser extent multi's

sigurd · Post by **sigurd** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 3:40 am

I dont think it makes sense that a thief can use any ability anyway, a Fighter should know more about such things than a thief.. A bard on the other hand, i think the ability was made for bards.

Thieves should have gotten another ability i think

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 3:57 am

Originally posted by koz-ivan:
if they were going to restrict it, the best way imo is, multi & duals can't learn this ability.

a single class thief in tob needs every advantage he/she/it is given.

this only becomes a power ability in a dual class, and to a much lesser extent multi's

I have to disagree. Even single thiefs must be restricted. Use any Item ability simply don't sounds good. The proposition of Path of Wind is much more better.

Let me explain why:

Bards: these are the multi-use guys, so is logical that they have this ability. And they already have great items capabilities, ex: They already can read scroll, They still cannot using armor(check penalty), the major improvement will be on weapons area. This will make the ability good, but not that absurd. Porem, bards should not gain the traps ability, as they don't know how to disarm, they should not know how to set, this should be Thief specificaly.

Thief: Still with the trap, and loose the Use any Item that make then able to cast spell.
I say this ability is ridiculous because: Imagine a Conjurer, ESPECIALIST mage, he should be the BEST in cast the Flame Arrow magic. BUT the thief using this fake ability can cast Flame arrow better than the Conjurer!!! This is ridicolous! As the Thief have a Xp table progress more faster, his Flame Arrows will ever do more damage than the Conjurer(because it is based on level). Same with Skull Trap/Blur/...
The best that a fake ability can be is equal to the original one. But in this case the fake works better than the original!!! Byoware pro were drunk!

Armadin of Clan Geddin · Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:23 am

This be the way 'tshould've been:

The thief can be usin' anythin' 'xcept fer the items which be restricted to any o'er possible class (in multi/dual).

Fer example, a kensai/thief should nay be able to use armour.

Why? 'Cause the reason kensais get combat bonuses be that they nay 'ave any encumbrance.

Wizard slayer/thief should nay be able to use magical items, even if the thief CAN normally use 'em.

That'd balance the ability. At least a bit.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:30 am

Originally posted by sigurd:
I dont think it makes sense that a thief can use any ability anyway, a Fighter should know more about such things than a thief.

And they do. Thieves don't get Grand Mastery in Two-Handed Swords.

Originally posted by Ivan Cavallazzi:
Imagine a Conjurer, ESPECIALIST mage, he should be the BEST in cast the Flame Arrow magic. BUT the thief using this fake ability can cast Flame arrow better than the Conjurer!!!

1 - Spells are capped at level 20 because of the simple reason that the spell files do not support them any further (give or take a few levels in some cases).

2 - Scrolls are always cast at level 10, if I'm not mistaken.

I personally think it's good that Thieves can use scrolls. Adds a lot of versatility and isn't really unbalanced, since scrolls are one-use only.

<aside>
Am I the only one that finds it odd that Thieves can scribe scrolls while Mages cannot?
</aside>

Originally posted by Armadin of Clan Geddin:
This be the way 'tshould've been:

I totally agree.

Armadin of Clan Geddin · Sat Aug 18, 2001 5:36 am

<aside>
Am I the only one that finds it odd that Thieves can scribe scrolls while Mages cannot?
</aside>

Good point.

Uther Pendragon · Post by **Uther Pendragon** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 10:47 am

To: Armadin of Clan Geddin
I agree whole heartedly.

To: Xyx
When a scroll is used it is used at the current level of the user. (Read an Animate Dead scroll sometime when you are over 15th level)

Agreed. Thieves should not have the Scribe Scroll ability. That should have gone to the Mage or Bard.

One thing I would like to point out though. It's completely up to the individual as to what game flaws are to be taken advantage of.

When I listen to people say that this should not be this way or that is too powerful, I have but one answer-Don't use it. The only possible reason I can come up as to why people complain about such thing is that they don't want others to be able to exploit the game either.

I myself like the special traps the thief gets. I can't think of more fun than setting up a couple traps (1 time and 2 spike) at the edge of a battlefield, out of sight of the enemy (after scouting ahead and falling back), then loring them back to the 1 man ambush. It's a blast

, but some say that's cheesy. I'd like to know how you are supposed to use the traps then, if not this way?

Anyway, to each their own.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 11:23 am

People are lazy, Power Gamer must be tomany Sylibles/letters
You could replace Use ANY item, use sheild use flail.(and i know theifs won't be able to use all the items, that is the idea)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 18, 2001 4:48 pm

Originally posted by Uther Pendragon:
The only possible reason I can come up as to why people complain about such thing is that they don't want others to be able to exploit the game either.

Nahh... At least, I don't fuss about how others play. It's just no fun to see the CRPG version differ too much from the PnP intent. One of the reasons I like BG is because it's AD&D. If I wanted a different game, I'd play a different game.