Warrior Discussion

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:38 pm

"In order to train the mind, you must first train the body."

If this saying is true, how is that everyone looks down upon the warrior classes in video games? Everywhere I go I find people commenting on the warriors being the slow-witted and low IQ class of the game world. Why is this? Is the saying above in fact a farce? or are people ridiculing something they don't understand out of fear?

Fiberfar · Post by **Fiberfar** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:07 pm

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]"In order to train the mind, you must first train the body."

[/QUOTE]

what if this actually meant that if you want to be focused, you must train yourself to become it.

or mabye warriors just don't have the knowledge or wisdom to train their mind.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:21 pm

It has nothing to do with being a warrior and I do believe it has to do with training a persons will power.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:44 pm

Interesting thread

Personally, I don't look down on warrior classes, I just tend to find them a little boring from my own perspective. I generally prefer a combination of stealth and magic just because it is a little more involved.
That being said, though, I primarily play RPGs, it may be that I'd find the combat system of an FPS more interesting.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:53 pm

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]"In order to train the mind, you must first train the body."

If this saying is true, how is that everyone looks down upon the warrior classes in video games? Everywhere I go I find people commenting on the warriors being the slow-witted and low IQ class of the game world. Why is this? Is the saying above in fact a farce? or are people ridiculing something they don't understand out of fear?[/QUOTE]

In real life, this saying is certainly not true. Look at theoritical physicist Stephen Hawking for an individual example.

In games, you most often have a system where you have a limited amount of points to distribute and different classes benefit more or less from the various features. Usually, warrior classes do not benefit from features like intelligence, but instead from physical strenght, constitution, etc, so it is not surprising that people who play warrior classes do not want to waste points in intelligence skills their characters do not benefit from.

Thus, since most game worlds have trade-off systems where warriors must put points in physical abilities and not intellectual abilities, an image of strong but stupid warriors will prevail.

What do you mean with "ridiculing out of fear"? Who would be afraid of a game character?

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:39 pm

Uhh the ridiculing part was meant that they make fun of it because they don't understand how to play the class and rather then look stupid themselves for not knowing, they just degrade the class.

As for the hawking guy. I realize his state of body and that does not have anything to do with the saying above. You do not simply have to train the muscles and bench press to train the body. Simpy cleaning the house top to bottom everyday(which is a common martial arts training activity, if maybe not the whole house everyday) will train the body or doing any kind of work trains the bodies discipline and creates a persons will power which would give them a more focused mind for learning things. Be it physician or the wisdom of life.

I think of it this way. When you are moving heavy things or are out of breath from running, your brain is telling you to stop it! but if you keep going and push yourself you create dicipline of the mind. And moving heavythings and running are not the only kinds of work you have to do to train the body's discipling, they were just examples.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:47 pm

In real life, discipline is not correlated to intelligence, it's associated with personality traits. I personally don't know of any RPG:s with a "self-discipline" factor such as you describe, but I am sure there must be some.

I am however not sure whether you discuss how other RPG-characters react to warrior characters, or whether you discuss how people (ie the players, not their characters) view the warrior charaters and/or people who play warrior characters?

Ekental · Post by **Ekental** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:12 pm

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]"In order to train the mind, you must first train the body."

If this saying is true, how is that everyone looks down upon the warrior classes in video games? Everywhere I go I find people commenting on the warriors being the slow-witted and low IQ class of the game world... [/QUOTE]

Its a video game first of all... why would someone fear a class?

Second... Elegans has pointed it out already... warriors dont need intelligence cause they dont benefit from it. So they usually have lower int scores.

D&D without epic levels puts a huge emphasis on magic. With magic it is possible to win ALL your battles. Warriors simply make them easier.

In context to Baldurs Gate 2 for example you can go through the game solo as a mage but as a warrior who doesn't utilize magic scrolls its pretty much impossible.

Warrior class isnt interesting (already mentioned).. would you rather rain meteors and the wrath of god himself down on someone or hit him with various pointy objects over and over till he dies?

Warriors are ridiculed because magic is overpowered... and the physical meleeing is sorta underpowered in comparison. They're not only stupid, but not that effective on their own.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:23 pm

[QUOTE=Ekental]Warrior class isnt interesting (already mentioned).. would you rather rain meteors and the wrath of god himself down on someone or hit him with various pointy objects over and over till he dies?[/QUOTE]

I should mention though that personally, I always played warrior classes in BG/BG2/PS:T/IWD/NwN...I actually prefer my char to hit monsters with various pointy objects. The reason for this is simple: I don't like the concept of magic in most RPG-worlds, because it is used in such boring and uncreative ways, and also I don't like to do a lot of reading about what all the spells and counterspells do. So I play really stupid chars always in RPG:s - suits me perfectly, and I have never encountered anyone ridiculing neither me as a player (why should they? It's a game.) nor my characters.

Ekental · Post by **Ekental** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:31 pm

True magic the way is supposed to be used in most video games is so generic and stereotypical its not that fun. (and yeah eventually I play warriors too cause of it)
There are though creative ways to use magic to achieve wtver you want to do. Like Baldurs Gate 2 you can kill villagers by using the gate spell (and not suffer repuation loss cause the creatures technically isnt under your control). Insect Swarm was also a fairly ammusing spell in Planescape Torment (40 greater shadows following you arround while slowing being gnawed to death by bugs)

The most creative uses of magic are on pen and paper D&D though. Then ofc all classes are more fun because you can literally do whatever you want (at the GM's discretion). Even playing a stereotypical wariror is fun...
"A big monster!"
"Wait its immune to normal weapons"
"So I have to use my SHINEYS swords?"
"Wait lemme roll to see if I understood that"

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:14 pm

[QUOTE=C Elegans]In real life, discipline is not correlated to intelligence, it's associated with personality traits. I personally don't know of any RPG:s with a "self-discipline" factor such as you describe, but I am sure there must be some.

I am however not sure whether you discuss how other RPG-characters react to warrior characters, or whether you discuss how people (ie the players, not their characters) view the warrior charaters and/or people who play warrior characters?[/QUOTE]Okay, but personality is defined by the actions we make. If we make certain actions our discipline will grow from it. Discipline that creates focus for the mind.

Oh and I'm not trying to say how others do or don't react to warrior classes. I'm just asking about it. That's why in the first post I put it in the form of a question "Why is this? Is the saying above in fact a farce? or are people ridiculing something they don't understand out of fear?"

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:09 am

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]"In order to train the mind, you must first train the body."[/QUOTE]

Well, if that were true, it would mean that anyone with a well-trained mind, such as a mage, would have had to keep their body in shape as well. It doesn't mean anyone who is training their body (ie. a fighter) will progress to train their mind, that's kind of the opposite of what it's saying. So it really doesn't say that fighters wouldn't be thick.

Personally, I have never played a straight fighter... I hate playing characters with low intelligence.

And I just like magic.

And as others have pointed out, because you have a limited number of points to spend, you don't waste them on INT if you're a fighter.

Personally I think it's probably nonsense anyway. Mental discipline doesn't necessarily have anything to do with physical discipline.

Bloodthroe · Post by **Bloodthroe** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:31 am

[QUOTE=Georgi]Well, if that were true, it would mean that anyone with a well-trained mind, such as a mage, would have had to keep their body in shape as well. It doesn't mean anyone who is training their body (ie. a fighter) will progress to train their mind, that's kind of the opposite of what it's saying. So it really doesn't say that fighters wouldn't be thick.

[/QUOTE]Well isn't is so that in mythology it is usually the necromancers and magic users who are the most vulnerable to hypnotism and mind control? The fighters are the strong willed leaders?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:32 am

In games I like playing "smartish" and "wiseish" (hehe) warriors in RPGs/Roleplaying. (For instance the Xandax I used in the forum roleplaying threads). Which means that I often place quite high scores in Wis/Int for warriors (like 12-14 with 3ed "point buy" rules) The same when I play magic users, then I place, for instance, wisdom high (I hate the high intelligence wizards with 8 in wisdom

)

However - besides that - I'm very much in agreement with CE: when looking at games it is often the case of min/maxers and powergamers, and thus int of 9 and wisdom of 8 is taken to make room for the extra points in other attributes.

As for the real world - here I'm again in agreement with CE. Mind as in "intelligence and wisdom" dosen't go hand in hand with physical training/development.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:22 am

I tend to play Paladins or how people in this thread may describe smart warriors

. The thing is most people incorrectly in my opinion equate powergamers and/or l337 players with the warrior class. That is because they go around on a killing rampage and max out only the "relevant stats". That is why people tend to hate the warrior class. But Paladins, everybody just loves them

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:54 am

Once in a while I enjoy playing a straight-up fighter type in a game. However, the overpowering brute is not my cup of tea. I rather prefer a fighter with some dimension. In the 3E D&D computer games, I like to develop intelligence and dexterity so I can pick up weapon finesse, expertise, dual wielding, and related "finer" hack and slash skills. A tiefling is more of my sort of fighter than, say, a half-orc.

However, I will admit to diluting my fighter characters with other classes - especially rogue...or, uh, mage.

If there's any stigma associated with the fighter stereotype, it's connected to the "brute" image I mentioned above. Smashing through doors and charging straight into a stinking cloud swinging a two-handed sword doesn't appeal to most. The comment "in order to train your mind, you must first train your body" should be seen in the context of warrior training. The discipline a warrior will need in battle originates in the mind, and this can be developed through drills, practice, and trial. That's how it is in the martial arts in real life. It doesn't apply in a general way, though...just to the way of the warrior.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:53 am

[QUOTE=Bloodthroe]Well isn't is so that in mythology it is usually the necromancers and magic users who are the most vulnerable to hypnotism and mind control? The fighters are the strong willed leaders?[/QUOTE]

Not in any mythos or mythological cycle I'm familiar with, and I'm fairly well up on several of them. Magic users can exert their powers through various mediums on anyone. Fighters have no more willpower than anybody else. Medusa turns endless warriors to stone. The curse of childbirthing pain affects all the warrior males of King Conchobar's people, including the King, himself. Siegfried, greatest of Teutonic warriors, instantly falls under the effects of the draught of forgetfulness. Hercules is easily killed by magical poisons. There is simply no resistance by anybody to magical/supernatural abilities. The only way to triumph over them is 1) guile, 2) cleverness, or 3) magical aid of one's own.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:10 am

A friend of mine brought up the point that sometimes it seems that you must first train your mind to train your body. Unless forced bu necessessity (a la caveman) a person will usuallly not develop their physical skills without a modicum of mental ones. You can't learn to develop your body or excercise without knowing about the body. Or at least it isn't very efficient. Also, martial artists must learn the techniques before doing any of them. I'm not saying it's a must, but the body depends on the mind just as much as the mind on the body.. jopperm2

Yeltsu · Post by **Yeltsu** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:36 am

Concerning the brute warrior posts:

In PS:T I used NO as a warrior with a REALLY big hammer, but he still had 17 int because I had heard about the great dialogues in the game and didn't want to miss them.

So not all good warriors are brutes

Paranitis · Post by **Paranitis** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:08 pm

In every game I play that has classes I tend to either be a rogue with steals all that isn't nailed down, or a fighter who uses huge objects as smashy weapons. My rogues ALWAYS have high dex/int, and my fighters ALWAYS have high str/wis.

Oh, and the thing about Paladins being the 'smart warriors', you are on crack..int is a dump stat for Paladins.