There's two sides to the story'

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:18 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/ ... index.html

He's a perfect son."

I can only hope once these animals are convicted, the military will do the right thing and hang them !!!

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:45 pm

Rep. Charles Rangel of New York, ranking Democrat on the House Ways and Means Committee, said of the impact, "It's not the coalition that's going to be hated, it will be the United States of America."

Rangel's unfortunately got it right. No matter what's done, no matter what comes out of any investigation, these photos will be tagged right alongside the dozens of little and large incidents that have built up enormous resentment to the US ever since the Iraqi invasion: the remarks of one Army colonel, for instance, who said that the war's success was due to "God's judgment on people that have not seen the light of Christ."

Personally, I wouldn't mind if Dubya had mailed a bunch of obscene insults to Islamic and nationalist extremeists across the world, encouraging them to attack him, personally. What I object to is his conduct of the war, the peace, and so much else which we're all going to inherit--while he returns to private life, incredibly rich and well-regarded.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:30 pm

Originally posted by Weasel
I can only hope once these animals are convicted, the military will do the right thing and hang them !!!

Unfortunately, only a few of the people who committed the atrocities have been charged with crimes. CNN did not report the whole story. (No surprise there.) Most of the people who were in charge of that prison are private paramilitary contractors. They haven't been charged with any crimes because they are not under military jurisdiction and apparently not under the jurisdiction of U.S. law or any other. It's up to the companies they work for to discipline them (or whatever).

At least one of the six U.S. soldiers charged with crimes says that the paramilitary contractors "made him do it". He didn't get enough training before he was assigned to the prison, so how was he supposed to know you shouldn't do things like that? All he did was do what he was told.

"It's not my fault!"

As with everything else that involves the Bush administration, the problem here is that there is no accountability. I bet no one is going to lose their job over this.

Here's a question. Where does the money being paid to those paramilitary contractors come from? The funds pouring into Iraq (or rather, into the pockets of people who are supposed to be doing something in Iraq) are unregulated and completely unaccounted for, because that's what the Bush administration insisted on when Congress appropriated the money. They wouldn't count any costs associated with the war in their last budget projections because they don't want anyone to know how much the war is going to cost us; and furthermore, we already know that they have (illegally) diverted money intended for Afghanistan into their Iraqi adventure without telling Congress. So here's a question. Do you suppose that they are diverting money from other sources into the Iraqi war without telling anyone, to help them hide the true cost of the war and to avoid having to get approval from Congress for their more questionable expenditures? If so, that means that those paramilitary companies would truly have no accountability to the American public.

And just look at what they've been doing!

Bush said he "shares a deep disgust". But is he EVER going to fire anybody or hold anyone accountable for ANYTHING? (When we're not talking about schoolteachers and schoolchildren, of course.) Maybe three years from now, he will grudgingly agree to an investigation that he initially resisted and then stonewall them but publicly claim that he is "glad to be working with them" and that he has "been fully cooperative". We will "bring the evil-doers to justice".

Oh yeah, I'm sitting on the edge of my seat.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Sat May 01, 2004 3:04 am

British soldiers have also been reported for similar behaviour. Its not just the States.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Sat May 01, 2004 2:35 pm

Soldiers everywhere do that, there are always those stupid guys.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Sat May 01, 2004 3:49 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
Unfortunately, only a few of the people who committed the atrocities have been charged with crimes. CNN did not report the whole story. (No surprise there.) Most of the people who were in charge of that prison are private paramilitary contractors. They haven't been charged with any crimes because they are not under military jurisdiction and apparently not under the jurisdiction of U.S. law or any other. It's up to the companies they work for to discipline them (or whatever).

It is highly unlikely those contractors will ever get more than a slap on the wrist. And saying that CNN did not cover the whole thing is a serious under-statement. I expect the situation in Iraq to take a serious turn for the worse (worse than it is now).

Moonbiter · Post by **Moonbiter** » Sun May 02, 2004 4:23 am

I'm suddenly seeing an old black and white pic of a young naked girl running screaming out of a burning village. Then I hear this old BTO song: "B-b-b-baby, you just ain't seen nothing yet.." The most certain sign that things are going to hell is when the US increases the use of "independent contractors," meaning of course mercenaries. What is it with the US and the love affair with these spooks? In the 60s they were supposed to undermine the North Vietnamese government from Laos and Cambodia, and ended up smuggling about a billion dollars worth of China White heroin instead. Then there was the 70s and the Filipines, the 80s and the whole Iran/Contras thing, and now this. Do you have to be slightly retarded to be a military advisor to the Pentagon? It's like hiring the Hells Angels to get rid of crime in your neighbourhood. Just wait another couple of months, and we are really gonna see the bad stuff come out.

Tom2 · Post by **Tom2** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:12 am

It seems that military intelligence might have been running that part of the prison and ordered the torture and interrogation. I would not be surprised if the was sanctioned by people quite high up.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:33 am

Originally posted by Tom2
It seems that military intelligence might have been running that part of the prison and ordered the torture and interrogation. I would not be surprised if the was sanctioned by people quite high up.

But with respect, on the basis of what? To achieve what? This kind of gratuitous malice by a few troops brings no information to light. Lacking information to the contrary, I'm led to suspect it's only the emotional result of some people who found themselves of like mind, seemingly protected from any repercussions--and let their demons out. That and much worse can happen in a heremetically enclosed enviroment where everybody shares and intensifies their worst faults.

Meanwhile, the series of photographs involving British troops in this kind of behavior have been challenged by Blair's government. Their main argument is that the photos show the troops holding weapons that are not current issue, and that a British soldier would not be carrying around, today. Yet it's come out that the damaging photos have been around for quite a while, and the government said nothing until they began to get public attention. Naturally, one wouldn't expect a government to draw attention to such photos if they were false, because that would be the verbal equivalent of stepping on a landmine to avoid it. But at the same time, it gives the appearance of a coverup--and just might be.

Tom2 · Post by **Tom2** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:57 am

It is entirely possible you are right but I think it more likely that some "off the record" torture was sanctioned for interrogation and that this let the demon out of the bag. But that is based on no evidence, only my prejudice of MI. We may or may not see.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:24 am

I've seen some strong right wing web pages post photo's of what the Iraqi soldiers did to our captured troops... Not that in any sense that makes anything ok. I think along side with fable, just a bunch of young dumb and untrained people put in a situation that (in my opinion) increasingly gave them the feeling of impunity. How long did these photos take place.. how far apart were they getting away with this stuff for the better part of the year? ? I think dishonorable discharges should be handed out but nothing on the sides of capital punishment. There fighting a war.

I've read a lot about the British stuff and well its suspicious they waited on it..

Also I heard its not cnn left out stuff its that they held back a week or so with the story. Or both im not sure..

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue May 04, 2004 12:17 pm

@RandomThug -Yes. we're at war, but let's remember that in war, actions by one side almost always result in retaliation by the other, and it normally escalates. By excusing the actions of the military and others involved, we've just sanctioned worse being done to our own.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue May 04, 2004 1:15 pm

Not that in any sense that makes anything ok. I think along side with fable, just a bunch of young dumb and untrained people put in a situation that (in my opinion) increasingly gave them the feeling of impunity.

I am not exusing anyone of anything, what they did was wrong. Personally I think bombing thier homes and killing thier families is more of a reason to retalliate than taking funny pictures.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 04, 2004 2:09 pm

@RT, if any prisoners were in fact tortured, then a dishonorable discharge will hardly provide sufficient punishment to satisfy the Iraqis who were thus treated; nor other Iraqis; nor the world community that has been looking on at the Horrible Mess George Bush Built. Whatever its ultimate effects on career soldiers, it will not come near to matching the pain presumably caused the prisoners in those pictures. Quick, transparent justice is needed, and severe sentences if guilt is established.

Unfortunately, we are likely to get the secrecy of military tribunals, and sentences that seem relatively lenient to an outraged MidEast. As I wrote here before the invasion started, it was all going to unfold in such a way as to make the US far more compelling targets to terrorism than they ever were, before. Dubya and his pals have done more to provide recruitment for the Al-Qua'dah's of this world than any number of radical imams, I'm afraid.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue May 04, 2004 2:46 pm

@Fable correct. My statement regards what I have read and seen and heard, these soldiers degraded these men and insulted them with comical intentions. Sure thier humor is more sour than most and it is something that would anger lots of Iraqi's if they werent to busy with what I would consider a hell of lot more priority things to be angry about, perhaps an occupation.

To point this at George in any sense is Kinda reaching to me, trust me Im no fan of the man. I've changed my opinion on the ends justfy the means, Saddam wasn't bad enough for all of this trust me thats my opinion. I see people lashing out and claiming how horrible this is and from what I've seen or read its actually quite god damn tame in comparision to what has happened over the last year. Its just easy to prove and point out. Yes if an actual Iraqi prisoner was tortured in a sense grander than being written on or put into a situation in which no actuall danger other than scaring him.. ( the wire deal )....

Of course I am not considering the British imagery... which is much more descriptive and visual of actuall abuse... which is being debated.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:02 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
@Fable correct. My statement regards what I have read and seen and heard, these soldiers degraded these men and insulted them with comical intentions. Sure thier humor is more sour than most and it is something that would anger lots of Iraqi's if they werent to busy with what I would consider a hell of lot more priority things to be angry about, perhaps an occupation.

When your country has just been invaded, you tend to get very prickly about things like national honor.

And consider this: outside of the obscene, what would be the most terrible things that any terrorist group could do to captured Americans in photos? From what I understand of the culture, Iraq and several of his neighbors in the MidEast consider removing somebody's clothes, leaving them naked, the height of insult. It's stripping away their humanity, saying that they're only animals.

Well worth considering while this mess snowballs.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:18 pm

I guess my perception of the pictures really doesnt matter heh... I guess your right. Honor would be something that I would cling to and something like that would bug me... I guess its just hard for me to sometimes gather how they would react, me being such a non traveled person. I didn't even consider the clothes thing... well if it really is that big of a thing to them well that would definitly piss them off. But in the grand scheme thats still not enough to punish the soldiers horribly, sure it'll insite perhaps some attacks or anger someone who wasn't completly sure if he wanted to join the Insurgents or whatever the hell were calling them now.

I dont know... I dont know. I just know I cant say I would act the same or different. If I could sit down with teh soldiers.. perhaps get deep detailed stories... or perhaps "Duerr Im a freakin nazi" type reaction you know... I am so glad my brothers getting out of the Airforce on the 22nd of this month... of course he never saw Iraq lucky bastard. My best friend is going into training this week for the Airforce, just got out of boot.

Im tired and dont think I have enough info to debate much of this anymore... I'm loosing care.... ****.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:21 pm

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/401364|top|05-04-2004::15:46|reuters.html

Ok now these guys need to be ****ing punished. Hit a prisoner with a rock and killed him? This came from Drudge so who knows the actuall validity...

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:02 pm

Everyone involved in the abuse of prisoners should face courts martial. For those involved "outside" of the UCMJ (i.e. civilians), they should be tried as war criminals. I don't doubt one moment that the enlisted soldiers involved in this received orders to treat the prisoners the way that they did. However, we shall see that the enlisted soldiers will take the fall for these crimes, and the ones responsible higher up of course will never face the music.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:22 pm

It's the lack of transparency that bothers me most at this point. We're being told "these things are being investigated," which means that no matter what happens, there will be accusations of deals behind the scenes, of people in "high places" getting off (as Chanak suspects), and a complete lack of resolution. Alas, military tribunals are administered with the same jealous secrecy as the Papal Curia. Or as Clemenceau, the French Prime Minister during WWI, noted, "Military justice is to justice, what military bands are to music."

EDIT: I just heard on the BBC that 25 deaths and cases of alleged abuse by US soldiers of nationals in Iraqi prisons are now being investigated.