Is reality becoming a problem for people?

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:12 pm

If you look at the times nowadays, you have to wonder, do enough people live in reality like they wish they could, or is escaping from reality becoming a way to be something many wish they were?

Sure, massive multiplayer online RPGS (MMORPGs, for short) are very popular, and used frequently. However, it seems alot like people use them to be something they aren't. I'm not saying that they can't be fun, or that there are truly any wrong with people that play them, but debate is beginning to snowball over them in general.

In reality, you can be a business person, a construction worker, or something else for a real job. But is there enough thrill in that for so many?

Fantasy has become more and more popular over the decades, as has science fiction. They've also become more realistic in many senses, and technology advances in ways that famous science fiction had seemingly depicted. The thing is, does humanity want to become like that? We've always filled our cultures with tales of beings who did amazing feats.

Is reality really being fun for many people any more?

I wish to bring up this topic because this seems to be becoming more and more of a debate, and a myriad of questions involving alot of humanity. Seeing that many of us are fans of games that have really been groundbreakers, maybe this would concern all of us in one form or another. I do not wish to intentionally make any uncomfortable, disvalued, etc.

I just hope that this may clear up a matter that, to tell the truth, scares the bejeazous out of me.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:43 pm

I play MMOG and currently mostly only MMOGs

Currently I'm playing EVE and sometimes beta testing SWG and before this I've played DAoC for 1½.

I don't think MMOGs are used much differently then all other computergames, or wacthing a movie on VCR/DVD either.

All this entertainment is in fact a way to unwind from everyday life.
Many people use it as a place to escape from problems but also as a way to clear ones mind, free one self of stress etc.

Entertainment becomes more widespread during the ages, wich to me tells me a couple of things.
a) we are wealthy enough as a race to have time and money to spend on entertainment.
b) the world is getting harder and more grim. As a consequence of us becomming more and more aware of our selves and our world the reality hits hard. Pollution, wars, famines, diesaces etc all adds up to a point when you have to take your mind off problems otherwise you will go down.

These and possible other (as others here no doubt will be able to provide information /oppinions on) all lead to seeking entertainment. And computer games are the entertainments of this age.
And as many gamers think, it is fun to still interact with other people for what ever their own personal motivations is (some to act a role, others to seek inspiration/motivation/solutions etc).
And MMOGs offter this more then any other genre currently availible.
Counter Strike wouldn't have been the hit it is, where it not for the multiplayer part - this is the reality with many games and MMOGs take it a step futher where you can interact with many people at once.

Personally I've meet some great people in-game on MMOGs as well as I have meet people in forums such as GB. Playing with some in EVE that I played with in DAoC.

This is only a stepping stone on the way ... games for us today is probelry what television where for the older generations (and some of them are in-here

) and what books were when they became public accesible, and what plays/circus were for the romans during their height.

Oh well - starting to ramble even more ... gotta go, multitasking my browser with EVE

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:10 pm

Yes, this indentifies the source of the problem. The question is, will there have to be a solution? Will we have to radically change the state of reality in order to attain a more managable world to live on?

To think, there have been dreams in all of our minds of doing things like making money doing amazing things with our skills, but alot of what goes on economically, theoretically, and technologically may be hindering the usefulness of imagination. Now, some dreams are seem as foolish, childish, sometimes even mentally unhealthy.

I confess, I dream alot about wanting to crawl through dungeons and caves, fighting exotic beasts of no realistic renown, avoiding traps, etc. Does this make me incompetent, wishing for something that isn't possible? Is it true weakness, physically and mentally? I ask this because I do not doubt that many have been through this.

This not only borders gaming. It borders fandom, fantasy and science fiction as a whole, and much, much more than I can comprehend at the moment. My head is spinning, seriously, with all of this!

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:22 pm

I am not sure what you are asking or what answers you seek.

For people to give up entertainment in any form would be to denie our own pleasureseeking instinct. I doubt the world would ever be able to become a place where people don't seek out entertainment. Such Utopias where all is good and well to me seems so much more less reaslitic then ... well almost anything I can thing that is unrealistic

Dreams, if you mean thoese that occur when sleeping, will always be reflected by what one have done. And if you dream of dungeoncrawling after playing such a game intensly - I would find it normal. I have for instance also dreamt of computer games or realted stuff - but I have just as often dreamt of factual things. I've even solved problems in my sleep via dreams - once I dreamt up a solution to a programming problem I've had the whole day....

If you mean dreams as in "goals for the future" and you wish to do dungeon crawling - I wouldn't excatly call your wierd (although close

). But if one gets to the point where a computer game takes over desicers for every day life,one needs to take a hard look at oneself.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:26 pm

Originally posted by Xandax
I am not sure what you are asking or what answers you seek.

For people to give up entertainment in any form would be to denie our own pleasureseeking instinct. I doubt the world would ever be able to become a place where people don't seek out entertainment. Such Utopias where all is good and well to me seems so much more less reaslitic then ... well almost anything I can thing that is unrealistic

Dreams, if you mean thoese that occur when sleeping, will always be reflected by what one have done. And if you dream of dungeoncrawling after playing such a game intensly - I would find it normal. I have for instance also dreamt of computer games or realted stuff - but I have just as often dreamt of factual things. I've even solved problems in my sleep via dreams - once I dreamt up a solution to a programming problem I've had the whole day....

If you mean dreams as in "goals for the future" and you wish to do dungeon crawling - I wouldn't excatly call your wierd (although close ). But if one gets to the point where a computer game takes over desicers for every day life,one needs to take a hard look at oneself.

Well, I meant dreams in sleep. Sorry if I didn't clarify. Of course, my dreams of the future are too cloudy to be definite. It doesn't involve dungeon crawling, though.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:32 pm

Well - then I would say - dreams of dungeon crawling is perfectly "Normal".

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:37 pm

Childish? What's wrong with a bit of childishness?

The one real thing I fear more than anything is getting to the point of adluthood where all daydreaming or activities involving the imagination are lost. Does that mean I don't want to or can't deal with the everyday reality of life? No. I deal with reality on a daily basis, just like everyone else does. But I also enjoy just letting my mind wander at times, I think it serves to stimulate your thinking as well as give you a chance to just sit back and not worry about things that might be going on. I don't think it's unhealthy to take a break from things for a bit, instead, I think it's more re-energizing than anything else.

It has nothing to do with avoiding reality. I understand that nothing changes while I am playing a game or just daydreaming, but for a little while, I can take my mind off things.

To me, it's the same as working. You hold a job, but you don't work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. You can't, if you tried you'd wind up a mess. You go to work, then come home. If something comes up, they call you in, and you have to deal with it. Same thing with gaming etc....if I am doing something like playing a game and something important comes up, I stop and deal with it.

Some of the most miserable people I know are the people who refuse to take some time off from their problems and worries and enjoy themselves.I'd hate to go through life like that, nothing on my mind other than what next issue is on the horizen and how can I get past that one to the next.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:08 pm

Our age is no different then the ones before. It is just the ideaology behind these "Massive Multiplayer" games. The fact that instead of sitting on a ledge by the beach and imagining yourself in another world. Instead of diving into Tolkeins books, instead of hitting another tab of acid were playing PC games.

Everyone needs an escape its just the difference between escape and reality is blending in where people are escaping to reality in a sense.

And dont forget those who fuel thier life off of reality. The race car drivers, the surfers, the musicians. People who spend thier life doing stuff that is more than real and not fantasy that gets them excited.

Reality is never fun, never meant to be. Reality is the balance to fantasy. When the world gets really bad we need really good fantasy. And when a demo is in the office getting a jobby job we dont need that much escpape...

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:13 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
<snip>
Reality is never fun, never meant to be. Reality is the balance to fantasy. <snip>

Uhhh - that one I strongly dissagree with.
Reality can be fun - more fun then any computer game - in many situations.

It is just the "problems" sometimes associated with "reality" that makes it boring, hard, unbearable. But there are many joys in real life .... or so I've hear

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:06 pm

Yeah, that's starting to make sense. Still, there may be a bit more to it than that, no?

Just because I have many, many ideas for my favorite cartoon since I was 2 (which, seeing that I'll be 20 in December makes it almost feel long ago), doesn't make me a total fool. Hey, people older than I am MADE this stuff for the mass market, so why should I feel ashamed? The Transformers caught on with alot of people, and has held on to alot of them since then, trust me.

Like I said, we're mainly talking about reality and the REALITY of the 'escapism' issue. It's more than just games, but games have quite a bit to do with it.

Obike Fixx · Post by **Obike Fixx** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:05 pm

I play a lot of D&D and fantasy games because that world is much more fascinating.
In my opinion, the world we live in is boring, to tell the truth. There is no "real" excitement in this world. Too many restrictions; too much control.
That's why I often "flee" into another univers.

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:38 pm

Have you ever wanted to "kill" someone? I've had conversations with my friends about how fun it would be to try and snipe targets off of a boat or something. These are obviously things I could never (or would want to) do in real life. But in a game they're acceptable. I can strap on my jetpack and defend my flag, or I can go into WW2 and kill either Nazis or Allies with no danger to me, or I can grab my sword and go kill a fire breathing dragon. I mean, who wouldn't want to do something like that? (and more) And MMOG's are just a social version of that. The only way to have really good interaction is with another human, but when put into a fantasy world it feels different and interesting. Many people are depressed because of the monotony of normal life and their dislike of their work. Games are a way to escape both of those, putting you wherever you want and doing whatever you want. They are like TV or books or anything else, just interactive. So yeah we escape reality with games, but this is nothing new. It's an evolution of a concept and it has become more important to today's people, because today humans are stressed beyond where they should be. We all need something to escape with, and these games are it for some of us.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:13 am

Interesting thread @Galuf.

Just to broaden the discussion somewhat, why don't we also extend it to include people who 'escape from reality' in other ways besides videogames or fantasy.
Think, for example, of how many people today are on mood/mind-altering substances, be it alcohol, illicit substances, or Valium. And then we have the many people (myself included) who practice meditation, or similar techniques of achieving altered states of consciousness.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:18 am

Originally posted by das_hermit
Interesting thread @Galuf.

Just to broaden the discussion somewhat, why don't we also extend it to include people who 'escape from reality' in other ways besides videogames or fantasy.
Think, for example, of how many people today are on mood/mind-altering substances, be it alcohol, illicit substances, or Valium. And then we have the many people (myself included) who practice meditation, or similar techniques of achieving altered states of consciousness.

Well, yes we can. Substance abuse I try to be careful with. I just feel prone to jumping into dangerous territory if I were to talk about it.

Meditative trances are something I'm not very familiar with aside from hearing about them. I honestly can't comment.

Overall, yes, you are adding to the thread.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:37 am

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Well, yes we can. Substance abuse I try to be careful with. I just feel prone to jumping into dangerous territory if I were to talk about it.

Meditative trances are something I'm not very familiar with aside from hearing about them. I honestly can't comment.

Overall, yes, you are adding to the thread.

I generally do add to threads, you know. It's one of the perks of being a (reasonably) seasoned campaigner here on this oft-insane forum, and a philosopher to boot.

As far as substances go, we probably ought to establish right at the outset the distinction between substance use and abuse, as the two aren't always the same thing.
I don't know what you mean by dangerous territory, but I've found most people here will at least let you voice your opinion provided it's not offensive and if you can support it. I was the resident pro-pot legalisation ranter here for a while, so I ought to know...

I've only had one mystical experience myself, but it's late here and so I'll leave discussing it for another day.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:20 pm

I've been tied to fantasy my whole life, like many I believe.. sometimes childishly, sometimes not.
Fantasy or sci-fi books, PnP (well, this ended), games, my own dreams.
After all the Valley under my nick is *not* the little one I live in...

I don't foresee it end in the near future, and besides, I like it.
It doesn't have to take the place of your reality, only to help it "flow more smoothly"

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:10 pm

Originally posted by das_hermit
And then we have the many people (myself included) who practice meditation, or similar techniques of achieving altered states of consciousness.

I had no idea you were into meditation. That's something I'm interested in myself.

Really, the mind is a mysterious place. Just when science thinks it has neatly placed the gray matter into a box, the bottom falls out and they are forced to re-evaluate what they know. There are almost as many ways of viewing the mind as there are colors in the visible spectrum.

Escapism is a wonderful form of entertainment (perhaps my favorite), but like everything else it should be engaged in responsibly. Too much of anything can end up harming you in the end. If you find that your fantasies lead you away from attending to reality in such a way that the very walls threaten to cave in upon you, then perhaps you have gone too far.

On the other hand, what is life without imagination? It would be dull and gray...and some of us can indulge our fantasies more than others, while still keeping a firm grip on the world outside.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:23 pm

Originally posted by Chanak
Really, the mind is a mysterious place. Just when science thinks it has neatly placed the gray matter into a box, the bottom falls out and they are forced to re-evaluate what they know.

When did science ever think we had the gray matter (ie the cell bodies of the neurons) neatly placed in a box?

Was there any special event of time period you were referring to?

However I actually disagree that the mind is a mysterious place; it is unknown, but I do not believe it is anything mystical with it - the degree of complexity makes it seem mystical, but for every piece of the jigsaw we brain researchers learn, we are fascinated not by the mystery but by the fantastic and immensly complex and multifaceted explanations.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:38 pm

Originally posted by Chanak

Escapism is a wonderful form of entertainment (perhaps my favorite), but like everything else it should be engaged in responsibly. Too much of anything can end up harming you in the end. If you find that your fantasies lead you away from attending to reality in such a way that the very walls threaten to cave in upon you, then perhaps you have gone too far. On the other hand, what is life without imagination? It would be dull and gray...and some of us can indulge our fantasies more than others, while still keeping a firm grip on the world outside.

Responsibility is one of those nasty manifestations of reality, I fear. Part of escapism is to overindulge, die happy I say

, though for most of us, we can regulate how much we overindulge and particularly whether it will affect others (not drinking and driving for eg.).

And while we can laud the virtues of escapism all we want, they still haven't made a game that can beat good old fashioned sex IMHO -- can only be found in reality

In this regard, one can't have too much reality??!

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:13 am

Off-topic, sorry about that.

Originally posted by Chanak
I had no idea you were into meditation. That's something I'm interested in myself.

I've been meditating every now and then (when I have the time for it

) for a while now, about two to three years I think.

Also I've recently converted to Buddhism, though converted isn't really the best term to use since most of the beliefs I'd formed from my own experiences are pretty much the same as those found in what little I know about Buddhism anyway.