Please note that new user registrations disabled at this time.

Nationalism, patriotism and the concept of the national state

Anything goes... just keep it clean.
User avatar
C Elegans
Posts: 9935
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The space within
Contact:

Nationalism, patriotism and the concept of the national state

Post by C Elegans »

In the Constitutional monarchy thread, I stated I am against the very concept of the national state. I view the national state as an outdated idea, unsuitable for modern society. IMO national borders only hamper growth, development and equality seen in a global perspective. They provide excellent shelter for us living within a rich national state, but the also effecivly keep out less rich people with less opportunities, and they maintain unequal distribution of resources. Trade tariffs, borders closed to refugees as well as work immigration are all factors that IMO maintain unequality.

And, connected to those opinions of mine, are also the issue of nationalism or patriotism. I stated in the other thread that I find the idea of national pride absurd. Why? Because it is not an achivement we have made, it is a mere coincidence. I cannot understand how anyone could be pride of where they were born? It is not a choice and we have done nothing do deserve it, so why be proud? :confused: I'm never proud of things I haven't done anything to deserve, or haven't worked hard to achieve. To me, it's like being proud of winning at a lottery.

Thoughts, opinons?
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
User avatar
Audace
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Audace »

Just a short one...In my opinion national pride, national identity is a large part fo the framework of society. Without a common background, culture or pride in your country society couldn't exist. It's a biological thing really. The idea of a global community is beautiful, but the idea of a global community without any national borders isn't plausible.....
"Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas"
User avatar
VoodooDali
Posts: 1992
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Spanking Witch King
Contact:

Post by VoodooDali »

CE - this reminds me of my other thread - please take a look:

A "Must" Read on war, patriotism and the Way of Knowledge

I would love to get rid of the borders on an experimental basis. I agree in theory, but then I also wonder about what Robert Frost said about "Good fences make good neighbors." I'm sitting on a fence on this one, lol.

Patriotism or Nationalism?
October 16, 2001

by Joe Sobran

This is a season of patriotism, but also of
something that is easily mistaken for patriotism;
namely, nationalism. The difference is vital.

G.K. Chesterton once observed that Rudyard
Kipling, the great poet of British imperialism,
suffered from a "lack of patriotism." He explained:
"He admires England, but he does not love her; for
we admire things with reasons, but love them
without reasons. He admires England because she is
strong, not because she is English."

In the same way, many Americans admire America
for being strong, not for being American. For them
America has to be "the greatest country on earth"
in order to be worthy of their devotion. If it were
only the 2nd-greatest, or the 19th-greatest, or,
heaven forbid, "a 3rd-rate power," it would be
virtually worthless.

This is nationalism, not patriotism.
Patriotism is like family love. You love your
family just for being your family, not for being
"the greatest family on earth" (whatever that might
mean) or for being "better" than other families.
You don't feel threatened when other people love
their families the same way. On the contrary, you
respect their love, and you take comfort in knowing
they respect yours. You don't feel your family is
enhanced by feuding with other families.

While patriotism is a form of affection,
nationalism, it has often been said, is grounded in
resentment and rivalry; it's often defined by its
enemies and traitors, real or supposed. It is
militant by nature, and its typical style is
belligerent. Patriotism, by contrast, is peaceful
until forced to fight.

The patriot differs from the nationalist in
this respect too: he can laugh at his country, the
way members of a family can laugh at each other's
foibles. Affection takes for granted the
imperfection of those it loves; the patriotic
Irishman thinks Ireland is hilarious, whereas the
Irish nationalist sees nothing to laugh about.

The nationalist has to prove his country is
always right. He reduces his country to an idea, a
perfect abstraction, rather than a mere home. He
may even find the patriot's irreverent humor
annoying.

Patriotism is relaxed. Nationalism is rigid.
The patriot may loyally defend his country even
when he knows it's wrong; the nationalist has to
insist that he defends his country not because it's
his, but because it's right. As if he would have
defended it even if he hadn't been born to it! The
nationalist talks as if he just "happens," by sheer
accident, to have been a native of the greatest
country on earth -- in contrast to, say, the
pitiful Belgian or Brazilian.

Because the patriot and the nationalist often
use the same words, they may not realize that they
use those words in very different senses. The
American patriot assumes that the nationalist loves
this country with an affection like his own,
failing to perceive that what the nationalist
really loves is an abstraction -- "national
greatness," or something like that. The American
nationalist, on the other hand, is apt to be
suspicious of the patriot, accusing him of
insufficient zeal, or even "anti-Americanism."

When it comes to war, the patriot realizes
that the rest of the world can't be turned into
America, because his America is something specific
and particular -- the memories and traditions that
can no more be transplanted than the mountains and
the prairies. He seeks only contentment at home,
and he is quick to compromise with an enemy. He
wants his country to be just strong enough to
defend itself.

But the nationalist, who identifies America
with abstractions like "freedom" and "democracy,"
may think it's precisely America's mission to
spread those abstractions around the world -- to
impose them by force, if necessary. In his mind,
those abstractions are universal ideals, and they
can never be truly "safe" until they exist,
unchallenged, everywhere; the world must be made
"safe for democracy" by "a war to end all wars." We
still hear versions of these Wilsonian themes. Any
country that refuses to Americanize is "anti-
American" -- or a "rogue nation." For the
nationalist, war is a welcome opportunity to change
the world. This is a recipe for endless war.

In a time of war hysteria, the outraged
patriot, feeling his country under attack, may
succumb to the seductions of nationalism. This is
the danger we face now.
“I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.” - Edgar Allen Poe
User avatar
Chanak
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:00 pm
Location: Pandemonium
Contact:

Post by Chanak »

Excellent article, VooDoo. It rings true and is worth keeping in mind...extremism is a poisonous trap to be snared by... :)

@Audace: I couldn't agree more. :)

@CE: I believe that the removal of protectionist polices and practices will strengthen the global community that is already in place. I don't believe that national identity or even pride undermines the foundation at all.

However, nationalism - as the writer in VooDoo's post puts on the table for all to see - does indeed serve to harm relations in this global community. Communications and transportation make this greater entity possible in the first place...closing, or limiting, these avenues of interconnectivity is harmful, to say the least.

I don't believe that isolationism has a place in this day and age, and nations that ensconce themselves within a shell of excessive tarriffs, exorbitant regulations, and tightly controlled markets suffer when compared to more open and accessible countries.

You make an excellent point - we have no choice as to where we are born on this planet. It's worth thinking about...however, I know that in my case, I do feel a measure of pride at being an American. Pride in myself for being born here? No, since I had nothing to do with the founding or shaping of the United States...at least in a readily visible manner. Nor did I choose to be born here. Instead, I look to the people who, over 200 years ago, dared to risk everything in a desperate gamble to be free to shape their own destinies...the Patriots of 18th century colonial America both inspire me, and offer me a sobering glimpse of reality: some things are worth fighting for, and freedom does indeed come at great cost. Their example, to me, encourages me to strive for excellence in my own life.

The list goes on, down through the years, to include men and women who paid the ultimate price to insure that I, as an American, can enjoy the freedom to speak as I will, travel where I want to, and pursue my dreams as I wish. True, I didn't choose to be born here, but the freedoms I enjoy in my life are directly because people like them risked their own life and limb for posterity's sake. I am proud of them for reaching beyond their own safety and comfort for the sake of another. :)

With that said, I don't believe for a moment that my country is somehow superior to any other on the face of the earth. I have seen many of our problems and shortcomings first hand...I've also spent time living in other countries both as a child, and as an adult. Each country has it's own unique history...patriots...and heroes and heroines to be inspired by. I remember the Philippines with great fondness...it is a beautiful place, full of beautiful people and meaningful history. So was Okinawa, Japan...and France. I love to immerse myself in the history of the world, for I wish to learn all that I can about other places, peoples, and times. National identities, in a very real way, serve as a reminder of history to us. And if there's one thing that will serve all of us in the Global Community well, it's to remember the lessons that history strives to teach us...so the horrors and atrocities of a multitude of tyrants, despots, and religious fanatics will never happen again...
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
User avatar
Gruntboy
Posts: 4574
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: London, UK.
Contact:

Post by Gruntboy »

CE, that's quite strange, I think, I have always held the opinion that national allegiances, boundaries etc. are a chance absurdity.

How random a thing to be born in a certain geographical boundary and to take pride in this fact.

Nationalism is a nasty force, whatever form it takes.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his pants for his friends."

Enchantress is my Goddess.

Few survive in the Heart of Fury...
Gamebanshee: [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/"]Make your gaming scream![/url]
User avatar
Scayde
Posts: 8739
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:05 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Scayde »

Wow, CE, we are almost in agreement. :D

Since I was a small child, I have always felt that a person should be able to go where he will, live where he would. I do not believe that borders are a good thing at all. Having said that, I, like Chan, am intensly fond of America. It is my home. These sentiments expressed by Voo reflect what I have always held. When you truly love, it matters not rather it is your family, friends, or your country, you love unconditionally. You see the faults and love inspite of them. You do not require perfection to "deserve" your affection. It is a matter of free will. Loyalty is born of this love. If I were born in Somalia, Chile, Great Britian, I would be a patriot still, because it is my home. Not because it is perfect, but because it is home. I think a patriot does not turn a blind eye, but works toward making his home the best it can be, much as he works toward his own self actualization. In my idea of a perfect world, I do not see every place being the same, but I do see everyone free to make the choice where they want to live. Which governments and systems they want to work within. Which ideals they want to espouse. I have no wish to homogonize the world, because I see a beauty in its diversity. I am opposed to a one world government. I do not believe that one size fits all. As you see here in GB, we all have different ideals, different philosophies. I do not think it is fair to expect everyone to have the same belief system, anymore than I expect them to have the same religious beliefs. I do however thing a perfect world would allow people to make the choice, choose from the available options, and live their lives accordingly, unmolested by those who would disagree with them.

@ Voo:..Great post. Thank you :cool:

Scayde Moody
(Pronounced Shayde)

The virtue of self sacrifice is the lie perpetuated by the weak to enslave the strong
User avatar
C Elegans
Posts: 9935
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The space within
Contact:

Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Audace
Just a short one...In my opinion national pride, national identity is a large part fo the framework of society. Without a common background, culture or pride in your country society couldn't exist. It's a biological thing really. The idea of a global community is beautiful, but the idea of a global community without any national borders isn't plausible.....


Nations is a construction. People could identify with their peer-group without the existance of national borders as an administrative and legal concept. So the space for common background and culture would still be there, as it is today.

However, it is of course unrealistic currently, but I do not think it's so unrealistic so it's not worth striving for.

@Voodoo: Thanks for the link, I read the other thread :)

Sobran makes an interesting and IMO very important distiction between nationalism and patriotism here. Is that distiction general in the English language? If so, I would say that nationalism is what I view as absurd pride, whereas patriotism would IMO be closer to a bond, an emotional attatchment similar to what people feel towards other people, for instance their family or friends.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
User avatar
VoodooDali
Posts: 1992
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: Spanking Witch King
Contact:

Post by VoodooDali »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Sobran makes an interesting and IMO very important distiction between nationalism and patriotism here. Is that distiction general in the English language? If so, I would say that nationalism is what I view as absurd pride, whereas patriotism would IMO be closer to a bond, an emotional attatchment similar to what people feel towards other people, for instance their family or friends.


I think the distinction is clear to historians, but to the average joe? I doubt it - I'm certain most think they're one and the same.
“I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity.” - Edgar Allen Poe
User avatar
Audace
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Audace »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Nations is a construction. People could identify with their peer-group without the existance of national borders as an administrative and legal concept. So the space for common background and culture would still be there, as it is today.

However, it is of course unrealistic currently, but I do not think it's so unrealistic so it's not worth striving for.



I don't think I completely agree. The concept of a nation might be a construct, but it's not as much a human construct as an evolutionary construct. Nations derive from tribes, which established themselves to claim and protect a piece of territory.
Borders aren't just an administrative and legal concept, but the very pieces of no-mans land between tribes. What I'm trying to say is, the concept of a borderless world is noble but useless. In theory you are right, but in practise we'll need a world conqueror and a few millenia of stable rule to make it work. Nations grow through assimilation and conquest. Not through understanding and acceptance. That's exactly what makes the UN such a great institution...And EU such a vague one to visualize when it goes beyond mere cooperation.
"Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas"
User avatar
Scayde
Posts: 8739
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:05 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Scayde »

Originally posted by VoodooDali
I think the distinction is clear to historians, but to the average joe? I doubt it - I'm certain most think they're one and the same.


It is not a distinction which is "tought" in schools other than at a college level I think, other than the rare and enlightened teacher. I attended school all over the country growing up, and while I am by no means an expert, I do have a broader background than most kids who live in the same area all of their life. I did have a professor make the distinction in college, but it was a fleeting comment. Never have I seen it so well put as in the article posted by Voo, and it does give me the tools now to better explain my feelings about my country. Thank you again Voo :cool:

Scayde Moody
(Pronounced Shayde)

The virtue of self sacrifice is the lie perpetuated by the weak to enslave the strong
User avatar
Audace
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:00 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Post by Audace »

@Voodoo...Great article thanks! Never really thought about the difference. I makes sense though. In Dutch we've got two translations for patriotism. Patriotisme(to easy) and "Vaderlandsliefde" The last one literally translating as Fatherlandslove.
"Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas"
User avatar
C Elegans
Posts: 9935
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 11:00 pm
Location: The space within
Contact:

Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Gruntboy
CE, that's quite strange, I think, I have always held the opinion that national allegiances, boundaries etc. are a chance absurdity.

How random a thing to be born in a certain geographical boundary and to take pride in this fact.

Nationalism is a nasty force, whatever form it takes.


Nationalism as described in Voodoo's post is IMO indeed a nasty force, since it is exclusive and discriminating in nature, based on the value that the group/nation I belong to is better, superior to others.

In Swedish there is not at all a clear line between the word patriotism or nationalism, they are mostly viewed as synonyms.

@Chanak & Scayde: What you describe here, a sense of identification and love of your country and its past, seems synonymous to patriotism as defined in VooDoos post. I cannot overstate the importance of the distiction. Whereas I personally do not understand patriotism either, I don't find it absurd if I view it as similar to the fondness some people feel at a more local level, to their home or their place of birth or another person. You love it for what it is, without idealisation, without holding the belief that it is superior to other people or places, and without denial of less flattering aspects.

As for me, I don't have that feeling towards my country. Of course I view Sweden as my home, but the concept of home actually has little meaning to me. I feel equally at home at many different places, in many parts of the worlds - and at the same time there are places here where I feel like a tourist, or a total stranger. I actually think climate zones and geological features plays a larger role for my feeling of "home" than geographical boundaries.

Regarding identity though, I don't feel particularly "Swedish" although I am sure I am....but I have felt very "European" when I have travelled in the US and in Oceania. Just as have felt "Western" when I have travelled in Southeast Asia or the former Soviet union...it's a relative thing, I need a certain cultural contrast to feel that. Very often it is small things, like eating habits, social codes, certain values one takes almost for granted...I remember when I once said to a Russian friend I thought it was a pity the beautiful churces in a certain area in Moscow were not restorated and he replied, somewhat hurt: "They are restorated - by Russian standards!". :o
It is of course also a question of how people view you at the place where you are.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
Moderator of Planescape: Torment, Diablo I & II and Dungeon Siege forums
User avatar
Scayde
Posts: 8739
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:05 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Scayde »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Nationalism as described in Voodoo's post is IMO indeed a nasty force, since it is exclusive and discriminating in nature, based on the value that the group/nation I belong to is better, superior to others.

In Swedish there is not at all a clear line between the word patriotism or nationalism, they are mostly viewed as synonyms.

@Chanak & Scayde: What you describe here, a sense of identification and love of your country and its past, seems synonymous to patriotism as defined in VooDoos post. I cannot overstate the importance of the distiction. Whereas I personally do not understand patriotism either, I don't find it absurd if I view it as similar to the fondness some people feel at a more local level, to their home or their place of birth or another person. You love it for what it is, without idealisation, without holding the belief that it is superior to other people or places, and without denial of less flattering aspects.

As for me, I don't have that feeling towards my country. Of course I view Sweden as my home, but the concept of home actually has little meaning to me. I feel equally at home at many different places, in many parts of the worlds - and at the same time there are places here where I feel like a tourist, or a total stranger. I actually think climate zones and geological features plays a larger role for my feeling of "home" than geographical boundaries.

Regarding identity though, I don't feel particularly "Swedish" although I am sure I am....but I have felt very "European" when I have travelled in the US and in Oceania. Just as have felt "Western" when I have travelled in Southeast Asia or the former Soviet union...it's a relative thing, I need a certain cultural contrast to feel that. Very often it is small things, like eating habits, social codes, certain values one takes almost for granted...I remember when I once said to a Russian friend I thought it was a pity the beautiful churces in a certain area in Moscow were not restorated and he replied, somewhat hurt: "They are restorated - by Russian standards!". :o
It is of course also a question of how people view you at the place where you are.
I understand what you are saying...LOL.I once caused quite a stir in a department store in Bejing when I took my high heeled shoe off to massage my sore feet...It seems my red painted toenails were something of a scandal. It brought the general manager out of his office with a compimentary pair of house slippers so I would be attired more "decently" :o :D ;)

Scayde Moody
(Pronounced Shayde)

The virtue of self sacrifice is the lie perpetuated by the weak to enslave the strong
User avatar
frogus
Posts: 2682
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:54 pm
Location: Rock 'n Roll Highschool
Contact:

Post by frogus »

Originally posted by Gruntboy
CE, that's quite strange, I think, I have always held the opinion that national allegiances, boundaries etc. are a chance absurdity.

How random a thing to be born in a certain geographical boundary and to take pride in this fact.

Nationalism is a nasty force, whatever form it takes.
I agree entirely. This is exactly my opinion also .
Love and Hope and Sex and Dreams are Still Surviving on the Street
User avatar
Curdis
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The edge of reality
Contact:

Post by Curdis »

Amazing what a quick search will do

I was about to post a rant on this very subject and found CE had beat me to it (The subject - not the rant).

The thread on how we are all 'screwed in 2012 anyway' really puts the nationhood thing in perspective. We are all in the same boat after all.

Here in Australia (and I am NOT a proud Australian) our political overlords regularily trot out the jingoism. It truly sickens me. They claim that if you do so and so you are unAustralian :rolleyes: and then lie through their teeth.

I personally think the perils of global warming are grossly overstated, but will go with the flow on it as it seems to be getting some small things done regarding our rapine piliging of Gaea.

Clear felling is accelerating in Australia, as our farmers try to get it all done before legislation stops them. This is happening within a very few kilometers of where I live, in some of the last remant vestiges of once mighty rainforrests.

We have a global community here on GB. What can we do? 2012 isn't far off. Oil reserves are widely stated as gone by 2050. We need to do something effective, but what? And to the topic, can we afford to do it peicemeal or by nation? Kyoto anyone? - Curdis !
The warlord sig of 's' - word

Making a reappearance for those who have a sig even longer :rolleyes:

[quote="Dilbert]That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard[/quote]

[quote=Waverly]You all suck donkeys[/quote]

[quote={deleted after legal threats}]I am so not a drama queen![/quote"]

:)

:mad:

:cool:

:mischief:

:angel:

:devil:

:angry:

Repent

For
User avatar
CM
Posts: 10552
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 11:00 am
Location: Here
Contact:

Post by CM »

Well i am actually in favour of nationalism. Ok not nationalism. Religionism for the lack of a better word. I was discussing this with Scayde some time ago. The muslims have this concept of the "Ummah" or society. We are one people just because we share the religion. No nation states, no provinces etc etc. We dont believe in the concept of a nation state until after the colonial period, when nations gained independence.

The issue isnt if nationalism is out dated or not. Its how it functions as part of a person identity. It can be at times a core portion of a persons identity. As long as people choose to divide themselves, nationalism will play a force and the poloraziation has been apparent since sept 11th with regard to the west and the muslim societies.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran

"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
User avatar
RandomThug
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:00 am
Location: Nowheresville
Contact:

Post by RandomThug »

Personaly I dont believe any of this 2012 crap or the 2050 oil reserves running low. Every generation predicts thier own doom. It happens again and again, how many times have they predicted the worlds death and wasn't it at some point the yearr 2000 that our oil would fade?


After reading through these posts I feel both pride and sorrow and perhaps its wrong to say but I feel sorry for CE. I feel sorry for CE not having the same feelings that I share with Chanak. Pride, Love, Home. I am very proud to be an American and at times I am very much a Nationalist and at all times a Patriot.

I understand the idea that in these times there is no need for borders and that thier is no more land to take (save mars and the moon). So the idea of having them seems wrong. Perhaps that is an easier statement to grasp living in a place like Sweden but living in the USA it is not so. For if we were to strive to a borderless world, a nationlist world, first we would have to strive to fix the human gene pool clean of those who seek conquest. Then we would have to strip millions of titles they claim proudly. I consider my neighber my brother, because together we are Americans. Together we pay taxes, together we contribute to our great society and together we make tommorow better for my children for this, this stranger this unknown neighber is my brother. I see the problem in growing nationalism (Basically lets make the whole world as great as US and just like US) which is a bad idea.

Perhaps it is because I am untravled I will admit... It just makes me feel sorry for CE to not be proud of bieng where she is from, it is ok to be Proud for those who hold the same title. My Last name makes me proud, for those before me who held it show me great courage and great wisdom. The title American also flows in my eyes and those before me shared the same title and for that alone I am proud.

I love my country for what it stands for and who lives here. At times I question my country, the ability to do so something I love as well, but it does not cause question for my love. Just as a sibling crashes your car you get upset but you do not loose the love. I know a Viet nam vet who fly the flag every day and hates Bush but loves America. I am a Patriot and at times I think my country is Better (Not in the sense of stronger/richer/more advanced) but just a better place to raise my children than other places on earth. Is it a sin (yes brett, Pride) well than Im a sinner but I dont think I am causing the rest of the world pain but doing soI think I am in fact doing no harm.

Ahh hell what do I know Im just some dumb nationalist American right?
Jackie Treehorn: People forget the brain is the biggest sex organ.
The Dude: On you maybe.
User avatar
RandomThug
Posts: 2795
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 11:00 am
Location: Nowheresville
Contact:

Post by RandomThug »

@CM Religion scares the hell outa me. What you proposse is actually something I can see as the only way to release the borders of earth by what you call "religionism"

Once again that Idea scares the hell outa me but non the less the idea of Country's releasing borders is inconcievable, unless so by religious virtue.
Jackie Treehorn: People forget the brain is the biggest sex organ.
The Dude: On you maybe.
User avatar
Sytze
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:11 am
Location: Location:
Contact:

Post by Sytze »

I wish a treaty, which would reduce the hothouse effect, would be signed world wide, but apparently that will not happen anytime soon.

Major countries like the US and Russia wouldn’t sign the Kyoto treaty, because the changes that should be made for it, were to expensive. This unfortunately means that the treaty itself didn’t go in operation.

Now, in the the European Union there was a debate some time ago, whetether or not the countries in the EU should hold itself to Kyoto. Italy was against, because it saw no real use of the treaty, since other major countries didn’t sign it. luckily Italy was persuaded and has now signed also.

Why am I telling this? I think the EU finally sees the problem of global pollution and the hothouse effect. They are hoping they are setting an example. With the EU accepting the rules of the Kyoto treaty, I think other countries will soon see it as something serious and will also sign it.
This might not be something big, and it will not be anything that will help on the short-term, but finally someone is taking action.

Like they say: baby steps
"Sometimes Dreams are wiser than waking"
User avatar
Objulen
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:09 am
Contact:

Post by Objulen »

Nationalism, along with everything else in humans civilization, is a human construct in one form or another. But that is not my point.

Henry David Thoreau said, "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root", and though he was talking about charity, his statement applies to much more. People see the symptoms for they are visible and grotesque, but do not percieve the disease. The problem isn't national boundries, which are just geographical dividers no less arbitrary, ultimetly, than a measurement system or number system or language. Why are we using a base ten system and not a base sixty, like the Sumerians? Both are functional. We find a base ten system easier, but do you think we would use a base 10 today if Sumer had been Rome? Nationalism isn't the root of the problem either.
Ideology, religion, melanin, culture: these do not seperate or join people. Rather, these are the excuses that seperate or join people. How else can you explain that certain members of a religion, or ethnicity, or culture embrace friendship while others bitterly battle and oppress one another? If these reasons were the underlying causes, then all people of one group or another would interact with each other in a specific way, like water and oil always interact in a specific way, or water and salt. For a real world example, many say Christianity or Christian scriptures are evil because of the wrongs and harms perpetrated in the name of their Jesus in epochs past, but there were also Christians who bestowed succor and aid, and one need only look at the former Soviet Union and other 'Communist' nations to see the evils perpetrated by aethist states, and not every German was evil in World War II. Another would be violence in video games; anyone who commits a crime and blames such games ignores the underlying problem in their own mind and soul, or attempts a lame excuse in a feeble effort to dodge the bullet.

There are functional reasons why dropping national borders would be a bad idea, however. We live in a world of limited resorces, and dropping the borders of countries will not solve the underlying problem of global wealth. Masses would flock to W. Europe, America, China, and other more productive countries out of Africa, Eastern/Central Europe, and other poorer regions. This would solve nothing. At best, it would galvanize such nations to help industrialize and develop poorer regions to increase global wealth. More likely, it would raise resentment and generate filty slums and decaying ghettos filled with immegrant refugees.
I am considered evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do. -anon.

Descend into MADNESS
Return to LUCIDITY
Dwell within DREAM
Awaken to REALITY
and Make a CHOICE
or Embrace IMPOSSIBILITY
Post Reply