Hi there!
I'm a bit confused about the ending of the game, and thus I have two questions:
1. VonDondu has mentioned in another thread that in the end Nameless One goes to fight in the Blood War. My question is, How do we know that? Is it an assumption based on the many references in the game, or there was some other indication?
2. What exactly is that force which grasps Nameless One in the end? Is it his death or something else?
Cheers
Ending of the game (Spoilers)
Ending of the game (Spoilers)
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
Re: Re: Ending of the game (Spoilers)
I suppose that's the full end cinematic: a force grasps NO towards a hole in the ground; next moment when he opens his eyes, he looks around, stands up, and after a few steps he choose an axe from his left and goes down to join a battle.
So, yes, I believe I've gotten the full end. But, as silly as it may sound, I'm not really sure how we know he goes to fight in the Blood War. Is the fact that the battle field and the atmosphere are coloured red what give us the clue, or there is something else I obviously have missed?
@ Platter --
If NO didn't die, then what was that force that grasp him? I'm interested: what's your theory about him not dying? How do you explain the end?
Cheers
Originally posted by Mr Sleep
I'm a bit confused now too, did you get the full end cinematic when the NO pulls the axe out of the ground and walks off to fight...sounds like you only got the precursor to that one.
I suppose that's the full end cinematic: a force grasps NO towards a hole in the ground; next moment when he opens his eyes, he looks around, stands up, and after a few steps he choose an axe from his left and goes down to join a battle.
So, yes, I believe I've gotten the full end. But, as silly as it may sound, I'm not really sure how we know he goes to fight in the Blood War. Is the fact that the battle field and the atmosphere are coloured red what give us the clue, or there is something else I obviously have missed?
@ Platter --
If NO didn't die, then what was that force that grasp him? I'm interested: what's your theory about him not dying? How do you explain the end?
Cheers
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
There are a few clues scattered about that indicate the Nameless One will have to fight in the Blood War when he dies.
One of the lecturers at the Festhall explains how some people who are damned for eternity must fight in the Blood War.
Ravel says that the Nameless One's own skin--his scars and tattoos--tell tales about the trials of war and battles with fiendish elements:
Ravel: "Oh, sad, sad, broken half-thing. All-a-pieces." She squints at you again. "No longer the one Ravel knew are you... are you still a-broken, after all this sad, sad time?"
Nameless One: "Broken? What do you mean?"
Ravel: "A body you possess, but a body of knowledge you do not?" She points her ragged talon at your chest, at your scars. "Many and such, such scars you have, all a-scrawled on your skin. Many tales does your skin tell."
Nameless One: "What tales does my skin tell?"
Ravel: "Your scars and tattoos shout to me, 'Here is a man in confrontation with the world.'" Ravel makes a crooning noise, not unlike a dying bird. "Yes, such tales as would shrivel even a *hag's* ears..."
Nameless One: "Tell me these... tales. I would know them."
Ravel: "The tales are many. They echo of balance imbalanced, trials of war, battles with fiendish elements, and a creature that feeds on others from a-far to sustain itself... and of torments. Such *torments* flesh has never known..."
Nameless One: "Trials of War?"
Ravel: "Great, great trials of war... much too much to be born by any, any mortal thing."
Nameless One: "What war? Where?"
Ravel: "This war touches ALL, my precious half-man. There is no place where its caress is not felt... did it touch you?" Ravel's voice drops, almost bitter. "To this, Ravel says 'aye.'"
Nameless One: "That would explain the scars... What about battles with fiendish elements?"
Ravel: "Two fiends butt heads..." Ravel sniffs, as if in contempt. "Their tiny heads filled with ideas of how the Planes *should* be, yet can *never* be or the Planes they would be no longer. Such foolishness!"
Nameless One: "I'm not certain I understand..."
When the Nameless One asks Fall-From-Grace about it later, she says, "A 'war of fiends' undoubtedly means the Blood War." Fall-From-Grace nods. "You know, the Gray Waste, the plane where Ravel made her home often finds itself the contested ground in that conflict. Perhaps whatever brought you to Ravel involved the Blood War?"
The Nameless One's Mortality warns him that if they merge, he will no longer be immortal, and he will face a terrible fate: "IF WE ARE RE-UNITED, THEN IT SHALL BE AN ENDING. THERE SHALL BE NO *FUTURE* FOR US. WE SHALL GO ON TO FURTHER TORMENTS... THERE IS TOO *MUCH* OF THE NATURE OF THE FIRST ONE IN US FOR US TO BE SAVED. WE SHALL BE DAMNED."
The clincher for me was what the Good Incarnation told the Nameless One:
Nameless One: "Why did you become immortal? Why?"
Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
Nameless One: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned. I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."
If the Nameless One tells Fhjull that he's immortal, Fhjull mentions the petitioner system, but I don't think he goes into any detail. People who are familiar with the background of the Planescape universe probably understand the reference and know what happens to petitioners in the after-life. It probably has something to do with the Nameless One's own fate.
As soon as the Nameless One is reunited with his mortality, he says, "I CANNOT REMAIN HERE FOR MUCH LONGER. MY PUNISHMENT CALLS, AND FATE AND TIME SHALL SOON BE HERE." He has avoided them for a long, long time, but he can't avoid them any longer.
I don't think the game ever actually says that the Nameless One dies and fights in the Blood War for all eternity. But there are a lot of clues to suggest that's what happens to him.
One of the lecturers at the Festhall explains how some people who are damned for eternity must fight in the Blood War.
Ravel says that the Nameless One's own skin--his scars and tattoos--tell tales about the trials of war and battles with fiendish elements:
Ravel: "Oh, sad, sad, broken half-thing. All-a-pieces." She squints at you again. "No longer the one Ravel knew are you... are you still a-broken, after all this sad, sad time?"
Nameless One: "Broken? What do you mean?"
Ravel: "A body you possess, but a body of knowledge you do not?" She points her ragged talon at your chest, at your scars. "Many and such, such scars you have, all a-scrawled on your skin. Many tales does your skin tell."
Nameless One: "What tales does my skin tell?"
Ravel: "Your scars and tattoos shout to me, 'Here is a man in confrontation with the world.'" Ravel makes a crooning noise, not unlike a dying bird. "Yes, such tales as would shrivel even a *hag's* ears..."
Nameless One: "Tell me these... tales. I would know them."
Ravel: "The tales are many. They echo of balance imbalanced, trials of war, battles with fiendish elements, and a creature that feeds on others from a-far to sustain itself... and of torments. Such *torments* flesh has never known..."
Nameless One: "Trials of War?"
Ravel: "Great, great trials of war... much too much to be born by any, any mortal thing."
Nameless One: "What war? Where?"
Ravel: "This war touches ALL, my precious half-man. There is no place where its caress is not felt... did it touch you?" Ravel's voice drops, almost bitter. "To this, Ravel says 'aye.'"
Nameless One: "That would explain the scars... What about battles with fiendish elements?"
Ravel: "Two fiends butt heads..." Ravel sniffs, as if in contempt. "Their tiny heads filled with ideas of how the Planes *should* be, yet can *never* be or the Planes they would be no longer. Such foolishness!"
Nameless One: "I'm not certain I understand..."
When the Nameless One asks Fall-From-Grace about it later, she says, "A 'war of fiends' undoubtedly means the Blood War." Fall-From-Grace nods. "You know, the Gray Waste, the plane where Ravel made her home often finds itself the contested ground in that conflict. Perhaps whatever brought you to Ravel involved the Blood War?"
The Nameless One's Mortality warns him that if they merge, he will no longer be immortal, and he will face a terrible fate: "IF WE ARE RE-UNITED, THEN IT SHALL BE AN ENDING. THERE SHALL BE NO *FUTURE* FOR US. WE SHALL GO ON TO FURTHER TORMENTS... THERE IS TOO *MUCH* OF THE NATURE OF THE FIRST ONE IN US FOR US TO BE SAVED. WE SHALL BE DAMNED."
The clincher for me was what the Good Incarnation told the Nameless One:
Nameless One: "Why did you become immortal? Why?"
Good Incarnation: "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
Nameless One: "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."
Good Incarnation: "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned. I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
Nameless One: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Good Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."
If the Nameless One tells Fhjull that he's immortal, Fhjull mentions the petitioner system, but I don't think he goes into any detail. People who are familiar with the background of the Planescape universe probably understand the reference and know what happens to petitioners in the after-life. It probably has something to do with the Nameless One's own fate.
As soon as the Nameless One is reunited with his mortality, he says, "I CANNOT REMAIN HERE FOR MUCH LONGER. MY PUNISHMENT CALLS, AND FATE AND TIME SHALL SOON BE HERE." He has avoided them for a long, long time, but he can't avoid them any longer.
I don't think the game ever actually says that the Nameless One dies and fights in the Blood War for all eternity. But there are a lot of clues to suggest that's what happens to him.
Re: Re: Re: Ending of the game (Spoilers)
If he did really die at the end and has become a petitioner, he is an odd one to say the least. He has maintained his form and memory.
Anyway, I'm not particular to thinking either way, it just gets me when people don't even consider the possibility that maybe he hasn't died.
Re: Blood War;
You can see Baatezu fighting Tanar'ri in the finale.
Maybe the fact that he's "died" (many times) while being separated from his mortality has caused Time and Fate to treat him as though he has really died (when they can finally find him when he merges with TTO), while still not actually and finally killing him. Kinda like a loophole, you know? Maybe all the powers that be care about is the fact that he has "died" in the past, without actually checking if he's actually dead.Originally posted by Aubrey
@ Platter --
If NO didn't die, then what was that force that grasp him? I'm interested: what's your theory about him not dying? How do you explain the end?
If he did really die at the end and has become a petitioner, he is an odd one to say the least. He has maintained his form and memory.
Anyway, I'm not particular to thinking either way, it just gets me when people don't even consider the possibility that maybe he hasn't died.
Re: Blood War;
You can see Baatezu fighting Tanar'ri in the finale.
The Nameless One's state of existence is ambiguous throughout the game. Maybe he's already dead in a sense. In the Mortuary, Morte says, "We're [both] dead," before he corrects himself. Pharod calls the Nameless One a "corpse". Annah says he smells like a "stinking zombie". His body is soaked with embalming fluid and formaldehyde. He's not really alive some of the time, such as when he's temporarily killed or, for example, when Marta removes his vital organs or cracks open his skull. Without his mortality, he can't ever be *truly* dead, but is he still *truly* alive? Perhaps when he's reunited with his mortality, he's in some kind of special undead state--officially "dead" (since he's mortal again) but still intact in his new, *Transcendental* form.
I'm not sure about that at all. I'm just speculating.
I'm not sure about that at all. I'm just speculating.
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fable
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The Nameless One's state of existence is ambiguous throughout the game. Maybe he's already dead in a sense. In the Mortuary, Morte says, "We're [both] dead," before he corrects himself. Pharod calls the Nameless One a "corpse". Annah says he smells like a "stinking zombie".
Pharod and Annah don't impress me as great judges of character, but Morte is as shrewd and devious as they come; and there is a kind of fatalism about PS:T that is unique among CRPGs (where, typically, no matter how bad the apocalyptic thunderclouds overhead, the sun is always breakinng through because the Great Hero has arrived on the scene). It is as though the NO were almost a wind-up toy doomed to go through a series of futile, pre-programmed gestures, with various powers in the universe--Ravel, his Mortality, even Pharod, Morte and Dak'kon--observing with a degree of fatalism (or amusement).
So when the NO finally succeeds in gathering sufficient insight to break the loop of his endless deaths and memory loss, there really is a kind of satisfactory transformation. The central figure you play in other CRPGs gathers strength, goodies (to use PS:T's sardonic term in the satirical Modron pocket universe) and friends to triumph over a Great Evil, but remains essentially the same from start to finish. The revelations the NO endures in PS:T are intentionally structured in such a way as to impress us; nobody could undergo what we have seen the NO experience, we think, without changing. He doesn't just gather strength, he acquires an Oedipal understanding of his basic character flaw: hubris. A self-regarding pride that led him to ask for immortality of one of the most tricky and equally self-regarding spirits in the universe, without thought to consequences. It's easy to see why the diabolically manipulative Practical Incarnation is so powerful, since it reflects much of the same unbridled core personality that made the initial request of Ravel.
Yet through the acquisition of this knowledge, the NO grows. He doesn't become a god, or a white knight; instead, he prevents his error from growing any worse, and sets to work doing penance. The NO runs through much of the game as the corpse Morte identifies, but at its conclusion, he is a tragic figure fully worth of the friendship of Dak'kon and the love of Fall-From-Grace.
Pharod and Annah don't impress me as great judges of character, but Morte is as shrewd and devious as they come; and there is a kind of fatalism about PS:T that is unique among CRPGs (where, typically, no matter how bad the apocalyptic thunderclouds overhead, the sun is always breakinng through because the Great Hero has arrived on the scene). It is as though the NO were almost a wind-up toy doomed to go through a series of futile, pre-programmed gestures, with various powers in the universe--Ravel, his Mortality, even Pharod, Morte and Dak'kon--observing with a degree of fatalism (or amusement).
So when the NO finally succeeds in gathering sufficient insight to break the loop of his endless deaths and memory loss, there really is a kind of satisfactory transformation. The central figure you play in other CRPGs gathers strength, goodies (to use PS:T's sardonic term in the satirical Modron pocket universe) and friends to triumph over a Great Evil, but remains essentially the same from start to finish. The revelations the NO endures in PS:T are intentionally structured in such a way as to impress us; nobody could undergo what we have seen the NO experience, we think, without changing. He doesn't just gather strength, he acquires an Oedipal understanding of his basic character flaw: hubris. A self-regarding pride that led him to ask for immortality of one of the most tricky and equally self-regarding spirits in the universe, without thought to consequences. It's easy to see why the diabolically manipulative Practical Incarnation is so powerful, since it reflects much of the same unbridled core personality that made the initial request of Ravel.
Yet through the acquisition of this knowledge, the NO grows. He doesn't become a god, or a white knight; instead, he prevents his error from growing any worse, and sets to work doing penance. The NO runs through much of the game as the corpse Morte identifies, but at its conclusion, he is a tragic figure fully worth of the friendship of Dak'kon and the love of Fall-From-Grace.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I am all for VonDondu's explanation, about NO being already dead -- it's what I, myself, thought at the end. And all this time it had been like we were watching and observing Nameless One's soul, so to speak, wandering around seeking to find peace, and not Nameless One himself, in flesh and blood.
On the other hand, Platter's explanation makes sense, too. Maybe Nameless One is considered already dead by Time and Fate, and thus they treat him in this respect.
And your analysis, fable, is extremely accurate (and touching I must say). I felt for Nameless One, and overwhelming waves of bitterness came over me in the end... I said to myself, "What a pity! What a tragedy!" and remained there thinking of his long journey and its destination for quite some time... I think he deserves our compassion, too.
Btw, what does "C" in CRPG stand for?
On the other hand, Platter's explanation makes sense, too. Maybe Nameless One is considered already dead by Time and Fate, and thus they treat him in this respect.
And your analysis, fable, is extremely accurate (and touching I must say). I felt for Nameless One, and overwhelming waves of bitterness came over me in the end... I said to myself, "What a pity! What a tragedy!" and remained there thinking of his long journey and its destination for quite some time... I think he deserves our compassion, too.
Btw, what does "C" in CRPG stand for?
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ending of the game (Spoilers)
I didn't notice such a thing. The battle was in quite some distance away from Nameless One.
Originally posted by Platter
Re: Blood War;
You can see Baatezu fighting Tanar'ri in the finale.
I didn't notice such a thing. The battle was in quite some distance away from Nameless One.
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
Thanks, Platter!
Your images were clearer and brighter than those in my game's cinematic.
Your images were clearer and brighter than those in my game's cinematic.
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
Koveras, the Nameless One can die permanently in the Fortress of Regrets. That's what Deionarra tells him. Outside the Fortress, if he gets killed, another person in the Planes dies in his place (and becomes a shadow), which keeps him from dying permanently. Since the Fortress is cut off from the Planes, no one can die in his place, so if he gets killed there, he dies permanently. That's why Deionarra warns him to leave.
We're not sure whether the Nameless One dies when he is reunited with his Mortality, or whether he dies when "Time and Fate" take him to the Lower Planes, or whether he's already technically "dead" after dying so many times. The important thing is, when he becomes mortal again, he can't avoid the punishment he has earned, and whatever it is that takes him away won't let him put it off any longer.
We're not sure whether the Nameless One dies when he is reunited with his Mortality, or whether he dies when "Time and Fate" take him to the Lower Planes, or whether he's already technically "dead" after dying so many times. The important thing is, when he becomes mortal again, he can't avoid the punishment he has earned, and whatever it is that takes him away won't let him put it off any longer.
Originally posted by VonDondu
We're not sure whether the Nameless One dies when he is reunited with his Mortality, or whether he dies when "Time and Fate" take him to the Lower Planes, or whether he's already technically "dead" after dying so many times. The important thing is, when he becomes mortal again, he can't avoid the punishment he has earned, and whatever it is that takes him away won't let him put it off any longer.
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what really happens, and what is that force that takes him to the Lower Planes? We can only suppose that it's this or that, but we don't know for sure.
Of course, I like it when different people perceive a fact in a different way, but it's always enlighting to kow what the creators had had in their minds in a first place.
OT: Btw, how can I get, too, a nice little Christmas hat?
Cheers
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
With all due respect to the designers, sometimes possibilities are more interesting than certainties. For all we know, our own ideas are more exciting than their ideas, and we might be disappointed if we found out what they really had in mind. Sometimes it's best to let people keep guessing; it's more entertaining that way.Originally posted by Aubrey
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what really happens, and what is that force that takes him to the Lower Planes? We can only suppose that it's this or that, but we don't know for sure.
Of course, I like it when different people perceive a fact in a different way, but it's always enlighting to know what the creators had had in their minds in a first place.
Originally posted by VonDondu
With all due respect to the designers, sometimes possibilities are more interesting than certainties. For all we know, our own ideas are more exciting than their ideas, and we might be disappointed if we found out what they really had in mind. Sometimes it's best to let people keep guessing; it's more entertaining that way.
I'm with you on it. However, I couldn't help thinking that in knowing what the designers had had in their minds might prove our guess and speculation to be more brilliant and... superior!
Anyway, I still need to know what was that force that grasped NO. I think we might need some clues to base our arguments. I, for one, haven't found anything... yet!
Cheers
• "You cannot pass."..."I am a servant of the Secret Fire, Wielder of the Flame of Anor, You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go Back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
Gandalf the Grey
Gandalf the Grey
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Azmodan
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i was just thinking.... that if you actually use the blade of the immortal on your self, and not just threaten with it, you get no end cinematic... do this mean that he "died" and do not go off to war in the lower planes, as he does if he is reconnected with his mortallity...
i means since the fortress of regrets is the only place where you can die a "real" death.. And if NO commits suicide will he be reunited with his mortallity?..
i really cant remember, it has been too long since i played that game!
i means since the fortress of regrets is the only place where you can die a "real" death.. And if NO commits suicide will he be reunited with his mortallity?..
i really cant remember, it has been too long since i played that game!
* Dail u-... chyn ... U-danno i failad a thi; an uben tannatha le failad.*
* Stupid ring, Stupid quest, Stupid fellowship *
* Stupid ring, Stupid quest, Stupid fellowship *