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OK, what do you hate about NWN? (very long)

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Nygma
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OK, what do you hate about NWN? (very long)

Post by Nygma »

OK, the thread sure to get a lot of flack from Bioware apologists. What were the things you hated about NWN? The things you found really annoying?

What were the technical problems, the creative problems, or just, in your opinion, bad calls?

Let's keep this fairly constructive, no "THIS GAME TOTALLY SUX I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER BIOWARE PRODUCT ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT THIS GAME IS A BIOWARE HOMER DONT BUY THIS GAME" please. Maybe someone of literary bent can write up a distillation for Bioware.

Ok!

1. NPCs
Overall - Henchmen vs party. IMO, bad call that led to creative and technical deficiencies in the game. I know some people think they're more realistic and like them, but I actually felt it diminished the realism. The AI wasn't there. And how realistic is it to find this really great weapon or suit of armor and get rid of it rather than equip your henchmen? You're going to go out and take on hordes of enemies and not coordinate on tactics? ("Ummm, Sharwyn, these are just a few orcs, save your buffing spells for the battles we might conceivably lose, okay?") This led to a lot of problems.

X-Ray vision and fearlessness: bad combination, which led the indomitable Tomi to die several times in his zeal to disarm the trap in the next room. Also caused him to oscillate uncontrollably between the locked door you'd like him to pick and the as-yet-unseen trap on the other side.

Eagle eyes: Standard procedure after killing a bunch of escaped prisoners - stop, catch your breath, get your bearings, start to pick up the loot, go haring after Tomi who has just dashed off to challenge enemies you can't even see. Can clear half the map before Tomi is corralled. Occasionally, Tomi becomes repentant and decides for the next battle to stand a few feet away watching as you get your head handed to you.

"Oh I can open that up easy""Oh I can open that up easy""Oh I can open that..." "THEN DO IT, YOU FREAKING MORON!"

Sub-optimal spellcasting choices, as mentioned

Inability to give your henchmen boots of speed (for instance) so they can keep up with you. If you rely on your henchman for disarming traps, this one's really annoying.

2. The game engine
The pathfinding was really disappointing. After playing Dungeon Siege and Morrowind, I expected a little better from this game. "Unable to reach target". For crying out loud, you're out in the open and he's two feet away! You can't walk around your henchman? Also disappointing, having to carefully guide your PC around every chest and corpse and wall because, again, he/she can't manage to walk around something. (On the plus side, we didn't see Morrowind's sticky environment in this game.)

The spinning room - every once in a while, the slightest motion of the mouse would cause the camera to spin wildly. Seemed to occur after zoomed up in a corner of a map. Saving the game restored the camera.

3. Bugs
Some people have had zero problems. Some people, like myself, have been dismayed at the number of bugs they've encountered. Yes, I have programmed. Yes, I know how difficult it is to turn out a flawless piece of software. I don't EXPECT a flawless piece of software. But there is a limit beyond which a game can be officially classified as "buggy". Was this game that much bigger in scope than BGII? The single player campaign surely wasn't.

I got to the top of the Host Tower and preceded to the gate where everyone was standing. Nothing. Walked around. Left my computer and came back. Nothing. It's a problem several people on the Bioware forums have had, and the proposed solutions involve the DM client or the toolset. Since this was the end of the chapter, I couldn't go on until I had searched online for a solution, got out the toolset, and "fixed" the game module. I ended up missing an important plot scene, but at least I could go on.

There were many other bugs, ranging from the inability to finish a quest because that dialogue option caused the game (not computer) to freeze, to the annoying or humorous, like Tomi wielding Sharwyn's bow or Aarin referring to a male character as "a charming woman".

Maybe it was just the law of averages, but I had a lot more problems in this game than I did in Bioware's other products.

4. The singleplayer story.
The story was very, very shallow compared to it's predecessors. The characters for the most part lacked the personality we've come to expect (kudos to Bioware on Linu, though). This is a complaint that the Bioware apologists really get steamed up about. "They weren't trying to make a singleplayer game! It's the toolset and the multiplayer aspects!" Well, perhaps, but that's the problem. The singleplayer looked as though it was a demonstration, albeit good one, of what could be done with the toolset. The thing is, many people worried about this before the game came out, that the singleplayer would take a backseat to the DM client and toolset. Bioware realized this and repeatedly stated that the singleplayer campaign would feature a story at least as engaging as BGII. Not even close.

Also, the game was too easy, at least for fighters (still working on cleric). It lacked challenges. I am not a hardcore gamer. I am challenged by most games on normal or easy, and never play games on hard or nightmare. I played this game on hardcore, and still found it easy. There was no good enemy spellcasting. I believe this goes back to the single henchman aspect, in that the game had to be balanced for all combinations of class and single henchman. Bad call, imho.


Sooo....what would you change in the game?

Bioware, are you listening? ;)
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Phantom Lord
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Post by Phantom Lord »

First of all I agree with your points (except with for the henchmen issue - not because I actually disagree but because I never use them, so I can't judge them).

Besides that I don't like the random item system (all I ever wanted was a good short sword and a good dagger and all I've got were good two handed swords, long swords, axes, exotic weapons big and small, eg tons of shuriken. There must be a bataillon of shuriken manufacturers and one short sword & daggers manufacturer - who's probably dead - in this world).

Pathfinding is a problem as already mentioned, but I had at least one situation when I had to reload because my character was completely stuck in a corner - which I consider a serious engine problem.

Story and NPC interaction as far as I know it is not so great. "Not so great" means that BG2 is far better.

Nevertheless NWN is a good game, Bioware should only have put a little more creative effort into the single player campaign, because many people will judge the game by the feeling of it.
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Jodmos
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Post by Jodmos »

What bothers me most in NWN is the items.
I thought this would be as close to pen and paper as a computergame can get, but its actualy worse then BG 2.
Around lvl 10 your fighter char will become a demigodlike creature because of all that stat improving items you find.
Im lvl 16 now, and when I put on all those items I have found I have 20 str 32 dex and an ac of 36.
Not to mention the most stupid Items ever implemented to a rpg.
The greater Belts.
Comon you get those at first chapter, and they soak 20 points of damage, making you nearly unkillable by normal encounters.
You can even go toe to toe with a great red one without much proplems.
I hate to restrict myself what Items I use when I find em because they are overpowered and ruin the game, but I have to... again.
This seems to be a proplem all rpgs suffer from theses days.
What do the developers think we are ?
11 year old morons who cant beat a game without "cheats" ?

My only hope is that I find a group of people I can play online with, with a cool DM who doesnt allow godlike items in his game.
With each kill, I grow wiser, and with added wisdom, I grow stronger.
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Post by Ares2382 »

Nygma, I totally agree with all your statements, I didn't find this game as buggy as you, but as I have seen this seems to vary depending on the hardware and OS that people have.

I think that it was a good idea on Bioware part to make henchmen as independent party memeber it is more realistic in my opinion, but I think the implementation of this is not so great. As you said it would be nice to be able to give this supper cool item that you just found to your buddy. Spellcasters in this game are horrible, Linu sees goblin fighter: Linu casts all the buffing spells she has in her arsenal (by the time she's done I already killed him though.)

Also as you said this game is not difficult at all. I mean you would think that a dragon would be a powerful enemy, and as it was in BG2, be hard to kill. But this game makes dragons and other creatures a joke. I stated on another thread that it took me on the average 10 seconds to kill a dragon. One harm spell + a successful melee attack from my hencmen = one dead dragon in about 10 seconds.

The AI and pathfinding in this game are horrible too. I think everyone agrees here.

I had my pixie do all the same things that you said Tomy did. Which is even more annoying because I couldn't just teleport back to Temple of Tyr to get my pixie back.

It is amazing that even with thall these problems this game is still great.
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Post by Magus »

Indeed, I wiped out the green dragon no problem. In fact, a pesky orc champion in Obold Many-Arrow's cave gave me far more trouble than him. Kind of sad...
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?
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cjdevito
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Post by cjdevito »

Things I hated, in no particular order:

1 - The graphics. They, frankly, suck -- with the exception of some of the avatars, which are well done. What's the point of a 3d environment that's neither immersive or even attractive? Why does gear in inventory look like poorly drawn cartoons more then anything else? Why are spell effects pixels, so far as I can tell, when they keep telling us how great 3D effects are?

2 - A day/night system on it's own clock rather then keyed to the player resting. Neverwinter Nights is right.... seemed like I was always stuck in the dark. And since dark vision is so poorly implemented as to be worthless, this became a significant annoyance.

3 - An incredibly shallow single player story line.

4 - An xp system that's seemingly impossible to decode; see my posts elsewhere trying to figure out how earned xp is calculated.

5 - The omnipresence of traps, in a game where you're limited to yourself and a henchman. If you don't have you, your henchman (or a pixie familiar, if possible) able to handle traps, you're just screwed - unless of course, you use some of the ridiculous items mentioned in 8, below.

6 - Rampaging henchmen so crazed for blood, apparently, that they'll kite off screen in search of enemies you're not even aware of.

7 - An economy that makes no sense.

8 - Ridiculously over-powered items as well as ridiculously under-powered ones. Where's the happy medium?

9 - The fact that, unlike in the baldur's gate series and IWD, you do not earn experience from using your skills.... no exp for learning scrolls, disarming traps, etc.

10 - Soaking damage. Is this really in third addition D&D? If it is, it's yet one more reason I'm glad I haven't played since the early 80s. Chests that shrug off axe blows? Armor that costs you only a few grand to make yet makes you nearly invincible? Come on -- that's just stupid.

11 - The worst dialogue system since Baldur's gate. Gone are the subtleties of Torment, and even the personality of BG2.

12 - Lag. In single player. Need I say more?

13 - The editor. Need I say more?

14 - The 45 degree viewing angle.

15 - The inventory system.

16 - Playing 'Hunt the loot' in barrels, crates, etc... for no adequetely explored reason.

17 - The utter failure to resolve Aribeth's plotline in single player.

18 - The fact that loot is keyed to your weapon focus. If you don't want to find a series of magical clubs, better take weapon focus in your first three levels.

19 - Performance stutters during unspoken dialogue.

20 - The graphics. They deserve mentioning twice. Baldur's Gate 1 was visually more attractive, for Jeebus sake.
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Nygma
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Post by Nygma »

A few more:
  • Unbeatable acid traps (can't believe I forgot those!)
  • Can't have your henchman scout
  • Any particular reason Tomi has points in Move Silently and Hide in Shadows?
  • Taking on a tough opponent and getting 15 gold at the end (I wanted some of the stuff he was pounding me with!)
  • The double weapon/dual wielding enigma
  • Inability to have henchman attack sorceror rather than summoned dire badger (Attack Nearest is Bioware's idea of a comprehensive list of combat commands?)
  • Henchmen can't switch between melee and ranged weapons (in combat)
  • Good luck carrying anything if you're a wizard (Uh, Daelan, a hand here?)
  • If you're low level, summoning any animal help is going to drastically reduce your xp (good thing my cleric took animal domain :rolleyes: )
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Post by nightWisper »

Pretty much everything has been covered but the following few things seemed to unrealistic to me that it annoyed the hell out of me.
  • Chests in a forest
  • Trapped chests in a forest
  • Dragons easier to kill than oger chieftens. (No I was not higher level when I fought the dragons)
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Post by Calogrenant »

**Spoiler**

Yes, pretty much everything has been covered, and I'm still laughing at some of the ironies.

I just want to mention this really funny fact that happened to me while playing chapter 3. Some parts have been... lightly modified, but it's a good synthesis nonetheless of some of the points previously mentioned in the thread...


Our hero meets the good aligned Gorgotha...


- Gorgotha (Gold Dragon): Beware of (forgot her name, so I'll just call it Red Dragon)!!! She is an Ancient Red Wyrm!!! blah blah GREAT POWERS!!! BEWARE!!! She is very dangerous and supposed to be the Gold dragons' worst enemy, but you can find her in this dungeon right here 'round the corner, good thing she did'nt need to take a pee in the last 2000 years or else i've been already embalmed...

- PC: Okay, although I know that Dragons in pnp or BGII take a big, well prepared party to bring one down, while suffering several casualties anyway, and that in games like Everquest you need dozens of guys to take one out, don't worry, I'll bring ye her head for you to hang it whenever ye want.


Some dead giants and minutes later...


- PC: Hmm an ultra-secret book about how to trick 2k+ years old wyrm into eating the wrong apple... good thing they left tons of copies scattered around...


And in the so anxiously awaited encounter...


Situation: A 20 or so years old human fighter facing a several hundred feet, eons old Great Red Wyrm into her very own lair...


- Red Dragon: MBWAA HA HA!! I'm over ten thousand years old, my powers are vast and well beyond the understanding of your puny mind!!!

- PC: You are a cannibalistic, egomaniacal excentric piece of crap.

- Red Dragon: I'm so powerful and ancient your insults mean nothing to me!!!

- PC: I said you're the most arrogant and selfish arsehole I've ever met, and sustain it. Period.
(No kidding here, the text options were pretty much something like these)

- Red Dragon: GRRR I'm so evil and powerful and yet I can't kill you because you're not hitting anyone of the dialogue options that would trigger the fight!!! Go away and either:
a) Bring me some dragon eggs for breakfast.
b) Bring me some dragon sphere for dinner, or
c) Hit the goddamn radial menu and attack me!

- PC: (Takes his henchman a few feet away and whispers in his ear) Hmmm... 10k years old... an-average-of-660-hp red dragon... could easily dish out enough xp for leveling me and you and my whole family up to level 25... nah, I won't use the dead dragon sphere... would weaken her so much I'd probably won't get all the xp... I'll just hack her to pieces as I did with the last tribe of giants...


Hack, hack, slash, hack...


PC: Killed Red Dragon.
PC: Gained xp: 285.


- PC: WTF??? Just... 285 xp!!!??? there must be something wrong here... someone messed the whole thing up!!! Reload! Reload!


Bat-Signal quickly spinning around while going to and fro the camera...


- PC: Here, mighty wyrm, take this candy, that me, a lawful good paladin, honestly and carefully cooked for you (Hands the dead dragon sphere to the beast)

- Red Dragon: Cool! I knew I could always trust a lawful good fighter!... crunch crunch.... hmmm... wait a min... ARGH!


Hack, hack, slash, hack...


PC: Killed Red Dragon.
PC: Gained xp: 485 (or something like that).


- PC: Oh well... I guess it just happens...


:D :D :D
(I really enjoyed it and its one hell of a game anyway)
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Helldiver
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Post by Helldiver »

My turn to beat NWN with a soap in a pillow case..(Part I)

cjdevito said:

"4 - An xp system that's seemingly impossible to decode; see my posts elsewhere trying to figure out how earned xp is calculated. "

Actually they state that experience is given based on 10% of what you would normally receive on the experience chart in the DMG.

So to -really- figure out how experience is granted you would need to look in the 3ed Monster Manual or 3ed Monsters of Faerun, and the DMG.

Take your level + the level of your henchman + the level of any summoned critter + any other help, and devide by the total in your posy. That gives you your average party level. To get the CR of the monster you need the MM or the MoF which lists the CR of the monster (1-20). You then take these two numbers and look at the experience table on the DMG. The closer the level you are to the encounter the better exp you receive, the further you are the less exp you get for it.

Lets use Slaad for example. Understand that NWN did Slaads and many monsters incorrectly (I will go into details on some of it when I detail my rants below).

A Red Slaad (found in Castle Jhareg) has a CR of 7. Given that the average level for the party is 8, looking at the experience chart in the DMG shows that 1600exp is granted to the party of that level. Devide that number by however many members are in the party (not sure if NWN includes pets). Take 10% of that resulting number, and that is how much exp you get. So with my example, if I had 4 members (Tomi, summoned pet, familiar, myself) each of us would get 400exp (pnp DnD), or 40exp in NWN terms. True pnp DnD doesn't count pets as help, although some DMs do (I do depending on how much help they gave). Experience point awards table is on pg 166 of the DMG.

"10 - Soaking damage. Is this really in third addition D&D? If it is, it's yet one more reason I'm glad I haven't played since the early 80s. Chests that shrug off axe blows? Armor that costs you only a few grand to make yet makes you nearly invincible? Come on -- that's just stupid. "

Yes its in 3ed DnD and depends what level you or the monster is before you begin having resistance bonuses and what class. I know that barbarians begin having damage reduction at level 11. Monsters have damage reduction dependant on type, HD, and CR (pg 73 of the DMG explains damage reduction). And you are right they went overboard with this but they went overboard with other things aswell. My coments below.
PG 107-108 of the DMG explains the hardness and hp system of doors and walls. Objects are listed by thickness, break dc, hardness, and hitpoints (as well as climb dc). In order to bust the object the PC must roll a strength check adding his str modifier, if it passes the DC of the object he rolls for damage. If the damage is over the hardness value, then the peice takes damage, otherwise the damage is obsorbed and the PC must hit it again. Yeah it can take a while to bust down an iron door, but each turn the PC's spend banging on it, the noise alerts monsters or what ever to the area more easily. A good trap for DM's in PnP. Stronghold builder's guide goes into further detail on hardness, break DCs, different types of walls of different materials, etc.

/rant on

1. Biggest rant is how they got Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Lords of Darkness, Faiths and Pantheons, Magic of Faerun, Monsters of Faerun, Monster Manual, and threw it in the garbage. Evidently it was too much to read and they opted for a kidie action game, oblivious to many of the chronologic, astrologic, and characteristic rules broken.

--SPOILER MODE--

Ok so my joeblow Heron Mernimane, a fledging newbie Neverwinter academy grad, is tasked with saving not Neverwinter, but the whole Faerun from take over by a neo-fascist totalitarian regime lead by some uncercumstancial pulled out of the ass race of 'Creator Race' Lizard woman named Morag? Ok...

Added to that all the stakes are placed on me, Heron a.k.a Rambo Mernimane. By level 16th, when I went into the first creator race ancient ruin (the time traveling one in chapter 3) I pretty much said the famous words "I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum, and I'm all out of bubble gum".
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Helldiver
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Post by Helldiver »

Part 2 (I'm long winded and boring)

Ok where are the Red Wizards? Where is Elminster, where are the volumes and volumes of epic characters reknown for saving Faerun? Are they too oblivious to the grandiousity of the events surrounding the city and pretty much the northern western sword coast? And before you tell me that the events happend clandestine, keep in mind the LARGE army that Aribeth leads into Neverwinter. And no it wasn't no pitiful band, it was vintage France 1940 (three war golems plus enough troops to drive Nasher and his comand to the city core!).

But then where are the gods? Are the gods of the dwarves, elves, humans, orcs, Mystra, Cyric, Selune, Tyr, (place reknown Faerunian god here) going to really allow their patron races, portfolio domains, and followers (as that is what maintains their devine ranking) going to be simply taken over by a creator race bent on world domination? If someone caught who Morag pays homage to please clue me in. Be nice to know who I was paying homage to, that gave me the god like powers to get to twenty and save Faerun from evil villian number 2459856 bent on faerun take over.

Sorry but no mater what, there is WAY TO MUCH about Faerun to allow a simple statement of 'You must save Faerun, if Morag re-awakens the creator race, all of Faerun will be en-slaved'. Yeah, tell Drizzt that when they go knocking on his doorstep...

the problem? Bioware shot themselves in the foot by having the old lizard lady (I forgot her long name, Haeru... somthing or another) tell the PC about Morag's bent on world take over. Had it been isolated to say Neverwinter I would have gone with it. Afterall the game is titled "Neverwinter Nights,... not Save Faerunian Nights".

Monster Manual and Monsters of Faerun? Too much to read man. Throw that away, lets make the stuff up on our own. Slaads are not Slaads, they are Slaadi, and they look like a lizard man with a robe. He casts spells, fights and does what not.
** AS A SPECIAL ABILITY, he summons a Slaad the big one. Thats his pet and fighting buddy.

Bioware's take? Big Slaad just summons another big buddy Slaad...

Monsters of Oerth or Monsters of Faerun? Because it looks like big Bioware only used two monsters from MoF that I could remember (clue me in on any others), and that was the Tyrantfog Zombie and Helmed Horror. All others where from the Monster Manual.
Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Ogres, Ettins, standard Monster Manual Oerthian stuff... Should of been called "Saving Faerun Nights in Oerth" because if the sub-races are any indication...
-Where are the Quaggoth? the Pterfolk, the Genasi (whole host of those borring elementals from chapters 2 and later in 4 could have been replaced with Genasi), the Groundlings (I was bettin big bucks I'd see them in the Wizards cave in chapter two, thats what they are famous for), the Draegloth, the famous gem series of golems (ruby, emerald, etc), the Derro (not the Dreugar which I felt where incorectly used), the Dragonkin, the series of dragons (shadow, fang, etc), illithids (though the lizard princess does make reference to getting you flayed...) ,the (place your famous Forgotten Realms monster here which is unique over the run of the mill MM stuff).

Then we go into the usage of famous characters, all of which where used incorrectly. My understanding was that Klauth, Great Red Wyrm of the North was legendary, and guess who shot it down?, yup, joe blow Heron aka Ramboo and his dual wielding Dragonslayer swords... Elaith Craulnobel acting incorrectly?

What about the whole story on how Neverwinter keeps warm, and how the winter is kept away. I'm not sure if I picked this up but supposedly it was the words of power and the source stone whose warmth kept the winter away? Can someone confirm this as ingame contrived story?

Because we all know that its the fire elemantals that warm the Neverwinter River flowing out of mount Hotenow keeping the river valley supernaturally warm ;)

Yes I understand the Luskan and the Orcs and the Arcane Brotherhood's beef with the Lord's Alliance. I felt it was all believable and canon until we got into the 'creator race' driving it all BS. So I guess now WoTC needs to make 'Guide to the Creator Races' if not "Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: Web Enhancement- Creator Races". :rolleyes:
DM's are gonna love them Creator Races.
PC: Oh but my god will help me and I will be able to do such and such...
DM: Nope, sorry Creator Races taken over everything, everyone is a slave, there is no trade, nothing. You're a slave too...

2. My character's role. Maybe it was expectations of NWN. I was hoping to be -an advanturer. You know? Not a hero really. Just joe dirt going around from town to town picking odd jobs. I felt NWN didn't really let me do that. It was more of, report to Aribeth, or Arin Gend for next mission assignment, either you do, or you don't. If you don't then you are under house arrest within an area of 300 miles without axcess to another city or town until you willfully repent and agree by force to help Arin or Aribeth. Catch ma drift?

On that same stance. Using true PnP rules, as they seam to boast that NWN used, where are my plane shifting abilities, or wish? Yes I understand how allot was forsaken in lieu of balancing issues, but still. I sure as hell would have plane shifted and had a long chat with some folks up there about the potential kick in the ass everyone on Toril was about to have from these unknown creator races. Well hell, since Toril was resting its welfare on my gunhoe shoulders, I may as well take them over too, yeah, gods, abyss, Ao, the whole sham may as well fall to my blades. I guess true presence of gods was there, making sure I didn't go passed 20th or else all hell would have broken loose.

I didn't play a wizard/sorcerer all the way through, was wondering if a 9th level summons could get you a demon?

3. FedEx boy. Anyone else feel they where FedEx boy for over 30-40% of the missions? Well hell, if I'm making up statistics I would say 70%. I admit a good number where restore the peice type missions, but of that percentage they always had something to give you to return to the person who gave you the quest as evidence (ie signature of mail received)... :rolleyes:

4. Henchmen. I'm ok with one henchmen really. But hell if you gonna give me one henchmen then for peice sakes let her/him be more interactive with me. I was happy with the work put into Linu, I'm assuming Heron Rambo marries her and we go together back to Everska, for the sake of brevety he is right now working on mass producing more Heron Rambo's as a future Half-Elven army bent on world domination. But still, gameplay wise you should have been able to atleast manage their inventory (I eventually got the Henchmen AI thingy) and strategy more suitably.

Then again we go into anther issue. The reason why some games had you with many henchmen, and even made it so that you would need their abilities was just that. Not doing so would have super powerful rambo characters that did it all. Yeah, as a multiclassing Ranger/Fighter/Rogue I eventually took some training in pick-locking, detect traps, etc since my wench wasn't good at it.

So no, Bioware's coment on "We wanted to present a true DnD playing experience to players, by allowing them to concentrate on a single character's developement" is erroneous in practice. In a PnP session there is always a need for other classes. I have never been in a PnP session where it was I (the DM) and super-ranger-joesmoe (1 PC). DnD was designed for 4 to 6 players, with 4 players being the optimal play (see the Dungeon Master's Guide: Chapter 1 Dungeon Mastering).

If you throw the DnD world at just one player, well the only way you can logicly expect him to get anywhere is for him to become Ao's gift to Toril kind...

5. Graphics.
-The clipping plane is set to far out. I felt it should be adjustable to be brought closer. Allot of items are drawn that are not neccesary.
-On that same token allot of items are drawn that are not conductive to the game at all and take up precious memory real-estate. Of note I'm talking about the horizontal cross-beams in dungeons and in some buildings. 90% of the time they vanish because during that time your character is under them. The rest of the time they block line of site or are not needed at all.
-My complaint here may disagree with allot of people's oppinion, but quite frankly, I donot like the amount of polygons that went into some objects and not enough in others.
In a game such as Morrowind, Quake-series, Jedi-Knight, upcomming Online MMORPGs, and FPS based games, you WANT the extra detail and faces on a structure. But in a game where 100% of the time will be spent viewing the character from above at a 45-degree angle, I personally could do without allot of the extra graphical work done on the scenery. Truthfully, I never could get the camera close enough to really see any added flavor the additional polygons spent on scenery models did for the game. Possible exception of course are the PC's, NPC's, and Monsters which I felt could have used more polys...
-If it was up to me? I would have used a revamped Darkstone 3D engine from Delphine software, slapped 3ed DnD FRCS rules in it and made a series of adventureing modules in and around the northwestern Sword Coast. Less resources spent on graphics and such, more on character/npc graphics and spell splendor, and on in-game DnD mathematics. But then again I'm no programmer, just a self proclaimed ranter. :cool:
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Helldiver
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Post by Helldiver »

Part 3 (Sorry for the length...)

6. Toolset? Don't know, never eaten that before. I looked at it and decided to let the experts deal with it. It took over 20+ dedicated developers to make the single player campaign what it is now. How the hell can little 'ol me do anything similar like it and hope to acheive the scope of say, "The Sunless Citadel", "Adventures in Waterdeep" etc...

For now I'm content with me book of challenges, my autographed epic level handbook (with Olidammara dice mind you) and the rest of my 3ed stuff to make any adventure/campaign setting I want in traditional PnP.

..those that have rants regarding the Toolset know where I'm getting at here...

In conclusion.. I think that NWN had great plot and twists, yet it was fundamentally flawed in the basics. Or could they have rushed it towards the end and just used the creator race as an excuse?

By the way, I think I missed what happened to Tyr? I mean Morag just bumps him off of Aribeth's devine influence and takes over? Stupid followers of Tyr who easily succumb by fascist mortal lizards bent on world domination... :p

I was perfectly fine with it all till the end, when that Har..something or another comes up with the convoluted responsibility I now had to save all of Faerun.

Helldiver out...
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cjdevito
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Post by cjdevito »

Helldiver:
Take your level + the level of your henchman + the level of any summoned critter + any other help, and devide by the total in your posy. That gives you your average party level. To get the CR of the monster you need the MM or the MoF which lists the CR of the monster (1-20). You then take these two numbers and look at the experience table on the DMG. The closer the level you are to the encounter the better exp you receive, the further you are the less exp you get for it.

I understand that's how it's supposed to work. It does not, however, work that way in practice. The classes are on a weighted scale (a level 1 wiz earns three times as much xp from a kill as a level 1 fighter, for example) and there are other holes, exceptions and Just Plain Mysterious accounts from others. See some of the threads dedicated to this topic to see some of the testing that's been done to try and figure it out.
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Post by Mathurin »

Re: My turn to beat NWN with a soap in a pillow case..(Part I)
Originally posted by Helldiver
cjdevito said:

"4 - An xp system that's seemingly impossible to decode; see my posts elsewhere trying to figure out how earned xp is calculated. "

Actually they state that experience is given based on 10% of what you would normally receive on the experience chart in the DMG.

So to -really- figure out how experience is granted you would need to look in the 3ed Monster Manual or 3ed Monsters of Faerun, and the DMG.

Take your level + the level of your henchman + the level of any summoned critter + any other help, and devide by the total in your posy. That gives you your average party level. To get the CR of the monster you need the MM or the MoF which lists the CR of the monster (1-20). You then take these two numbers and look at the experience table on the DMG. The closer the level you are to the encounter the better exp you receive, the further you are the less exp you get for it.

Wrong. Summoned creatures do not figure into the CR of the party for means of XP in 3rd Edition D&D, they are the subjects of a spell the PC casts and should be the same as any other spell cast by the PC. If they did anytime you played pen and paper and the party wizard cast a summon spell the rest of the players would get pissed because they now had to share xp with his summons. Should casting the 3rd level spell Fireball reduce your xp for an encounter NO, then why does Summon Monster 3. Neither should animal companions or familiars reduce xp, why should druids and mages get punished through xp loss for using a class feature, should fighters take xp loss for using their feats, NO. Im not trying to insult you or discount your knowledge of how xp works in NWN, because in game these things obviously affect xp gain, I simply wanted to point out that they don't work this way in pen and paper D&D.
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Post by Xyx »

Well... most's been said already, but lessee if I can add some more dirt to the soup. Rant mode on.

*** Minor spoilers ***
  • Diablo treadmill. Kill monsters, pick up gold, open crate, take out healing potion, kill monster, open barrel, take out healing kit, kill monsters, open chest, take out gold. That's what must've sucked up 90% of my time. RPG? Hah! Action game with a splash of dialogue is more like it. The fact that killing stuff is also responsible for 90% (nay, 99%) of XP doesn't help either.
  • No sense of perspective. It all seems well and good while you're out in the open, but once you step through a doorway you end up in another dimension. The average temple has an interior the size of a football field. Poor old cleaning ladies live in a house twice the size of mine. What happened to those nicely claustrophobic corridors of the Baldur's Gate series?
  • Quantity over quality. I like to see intricately detailed environments full of carefully crafted details. A name and background for every NPC. A reason for every healing potion to be in that crate. People that live and breathe, move about town conducting their business. Every house a unique interior. Solid AI scripting for everyone and everything; cunning enemies, commoners that actually react to me stealing their things. I need one good example, not a hundred rushed examples.
  • Heavy DM cheese. If I kill someone that tried to whack me with a sword, I expect to get a sword. If I ask for a bigger reward for , I expect to be able to negotiate. "So, Nasher, just how much is this final cure ingredient really worth to you? Shall we say... the castle and Cloaktower?". There's a frikkin' stableboy hiding in a basement that sells tons of magical weapons and armor! Out of his pockets!! Just about any non-Lawful character would agree that hogging such a stockpile in times of need is wrong. Can I take his stuff? Noooo... evil or no, you gotta pay like a good little customer. Not even a level 20 Rogue can shoplift!
  • Wizards, wizards, wizards... but where do I set simple properties? Half of a module can only be put together through the wizards, and the wizards make quite the assumptions. I cannot create armor that costs less than 100 gold. I cannot create chickens that give no XP when killed. If these things aren't the basics of the basics, then I don't know what is. Nevertheless, the Toolset can't handle them.
  • Departure from PnP rules. So what wizards get 0wned when they're alone? Well, BioWare thinks otherwise and gives them brute tanking familiars that you can let die without giving you hell, summons that last all day, and XP bonuses out of the blue. Rogues get to take 20 when disarming traps. Since when do you get an average of 20 chances for that!? Clerics get Domains, but half of them have no link to PnP except the name. Resting is a b1tch? Not anymore. Watch how warriors heal themselves in 20 seconds and mages get to blow their big guns every damn fight.
Rant mode off...
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Post by Helldiver »

Mathurin said:

"Wrong. Summoned creatures do not figure into the CR of the party for means of XP in 3rd Edition D&D, they are the subjects of a spell the PC casts and should be the same as any other spell cast by the PC. If they did anytime you played pen and paper and the party wizard cast a summon spell the rest of the players would get pissed because they now had to share xp with his summons. Should casting the 3rd level spell Fireball reduce your xp for an encounter NO, then why does Summon Monster 3. Neither should animal companions or familiars reduce xp, why should druids and mages get punished through xp loss for using a class feature, should fighters take xp loss for using their feats, NO. Im not trying to insult you or discount your knowledge of how xp works in NWN, because in game these things obviously affect xp gain, I simply wanted to point out that they don't work this way in pen and paper D&D"

Uhm, just letting you know that I completely know how 3ed Ed DnD works and I know how the monster summoned should not take exp.

As a DM I may dock someone if their summoned pet was circumstantial to the winning of a fight. Actually if you've been playing 3ed lately, most DMs are docking players for exp anyhow because many believe the table grants to much, atleast thats the trend out here.

Did you pay attention to my post?
Paragraph 5 sentence 6 of Part I of my post states:
"True pnp DnD doesn't count pets as help, although some DMs do (I do depending on how much help they gave). Experience point awards table is on pg 166 of the DMG."

Look at my post and you will see :)

And I'm assuming you think I know how the NWN exp system works when thats far from the truth. I know how 3ed edition (pg 166 of the DMG) exp works, I was just applying the system to NWN due to their coment on how they relied on the 3ed Ed system for exp. Actually, exp distribution alters slightly if using the FRCS (pp 299-300 explain a slightly alternate system of experience rewards in the Forgotten Realms Camp. Setting).

Not being offensive and wasn't offended, just clearing things up bro.
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Post by Mathurin »

Cool, I was just trying to show that NWN doesn't use the system set up as is written in the DMG. Because like I said, as it is written in the DMG summoned creatures don't affect xp, thats not to say that certain DMs wont lower xp because of them, Ive done it a time or 2 myself, when a summoned creature pushed a druid 4 levels higher than the party off the 5th story of a tower in the second round of combat for instance. In NWN they obviously play a part. Nor do familiars or companions by D&D rules yet they do in NWN. Thats my whole problem with the fact that Bioware says they use the D&D system exactly as it works with the simple downshift for slower leveling when they so obviously don't, Its not that I don't like the way there system works its simply that I don't think they should state that they are using a system that they obviously don't.
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Post by Helldiver »

Wizards

Was gonna coment how one reason why you may deem wizards a little underpowered and how they get the almighty ever-dying without experience loss familiar (200exp per class level, or half the loss if the wiz/sorcer makes a Fort save DC 15+. Pg 50 of the PHB, and on pg 12 of Tome & Blood sumarizes), is because NWN did away with certain physics of the game.

There is no Fly ability or Fly spell. The common tactic I see wizards take is the Fly, followed by Web, followed by magic missles or spells that donot do fire damage to the web. There is no blink, etherealness, gasseous form (with the right feats that is still useful), where are the illusion line of spells? One of my all time favorites was flaming sphere as a wizard I'd park it on a creature letting it take a possible 2d6 damage for rounds per my level while I finished it off with magic missles. If it died before it expended, I would move it to another creature and continue from there. It sure saved a heck of allot of precious slots post 5th level. Gave me allot to do earlier than level 5 when I would really start to shape up. No Flaming Sphere in NWN. Besides wall of fire, where are the other series of wall spells? I felt wall of ice would have been a good simple addition especially towards the end with those fire giant levels. Sure as hell can't have people passing walls in a PC game...much less shape earth or plane shift. Didn't get to test knock, but did it really work especially on those very high DC locked doors and chests? As a wiz/sorcerer with low STR would have been great to have Shrink Item early on, though you get enough magic bags where you will eventually not need it I guess...

If you count improved evasion as not being a typo in Wizards of the Coast's part (Tome & Blood pg 13, but was later rejected in the FAQ and on the errata),.. then wizards/sorcerers really own.

But the bottom line is that Bioware deemed allot of the PnP mechanics too unbalancing to the game, and pretty much edited them or threw them out.

In PnP sorcerers rule, post 6th level they begin to come to their own with their first access to the 3rd level circle of spells. We have all agreed that sorcerers atleast in PnP are a bit overpowered.
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Post by Xyx »

Re: Wizards
Originally posted by Helldiver Bioware deemed allot of the PnP mechanics too unbalancing to the game, and pretty much edited them or threw them out.
Game balance concerns? You must be joking. The reason such stuff is not in is that it was too much trouble to implement. People cannot pass walls in a computer game because the engine was not built to deal with it. ;)
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Post by Magus »

Originally posted by Helldiver:
Sure as hell can't have people passing walls in a PC game...much less shape earth or plane shift.
@Xyx: I think he acknowledges that. ;)
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