The nature of cheese

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Tue May 14, 2002 11:50 am

I would like to know what defines cheese. I've checed the back post and could find nothing directly related. This term arises in any game, specifically role-playing ones, but how does it apply to BG. What do you think is the most garganzola in each of the following catagories:

1) Equipment
2)Spell
3)Tactic
4) combination of the above

Please expand and explain why.

Thank you.

Ozmo · Post by **Ozmo** » Tue May 14, 2002 12:17 pm

I`ve always considered playing cheese to mean playing in an unfair/un... *thinks of proper wording* "To play (use abilities, equip items, abuse bug-type mistakes by game designers or loopholes in the game etc) in a way that maximises the killing power of your group, ignores the roleplaying aspect of the game and makes no sense if you bother to think about it."

Alson · Post by **Alson** » Tue May 14, 2002 12:26 pm

@Ozmo -
No, that is called OVERKILL...

Cheese is more of exploiting the lame AI of the game (pre-installing the Sola mod

)...

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Tue May 14, 2002 12:27 pm

Cheese to me is exploiting the AI of the game to take advantage of situations where you shouldn't be able to. Ex........cloudkill to kill a dragon with no danger to your party. The dragon ain't smart enough to go hostile and come to find you in you are out of its line f sight.

The biggest cheese item I have seen in the game is the Shield of Balduran. But, as it was put in the game, I don't see how you could call it cheating to use it.

evelbruce · Post by **evelbruce** » Tue May 14, 2002 1:54 pm

the only thing i really consider cheesy is to modify the game, or to add equipment or people to the game after you've lost them or can't find them.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed May 15, 2002 12:47 am

cheese is fun....

follow the user, the user is good, you are getting sleepy....

new cheese....

get clay golem book, cast, get golem, then stick in ba of holding pull out, and cast again...gem bags and bags of holding will recharge once a day items...

have 5 clay golems attack!!!

may be the only way to take down eclipse party...ick...will encounter soon...

stacking dragon breaths dont work anymore in sola encounters.....

they force cast spell immunites for ALL the stinking schools like crazy, so dragon breaths will do squat...

good quality summons, like 6 planetars (project image...yummy, cheesy)

will hold them off long enough for spell immunity to wear off...

if you love cheese, get teh sola mod, some of the battles, on even core, required my encyclopedia of cheesy techs just to beat!!!!!

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Wed May 15, 2002 2:19 am

BG allows so much horrible cheese that its very hard to pick a winner.

For me cheese includes

1) Exploiting any bug
Examples: casting chain contingency in battle, wielding offhand weaps while using a ranged attack, UUFs "patented" frag grenade+ deathblow, free item recharges, getting 2 rings of gaxx, etc, etc, etc

2) Exploiting the fact that the AI is fantastically stupid
Examples: Using mord swords or other invulnerables to soak up attacks, cloudkill from out of range, fog/cloud spells against casters who are too stupid to move out of the way before trying to cast.

3) Exploiting game mechanics to do things that make no sense
Examples: Skull trap on spawn points, infinite gold through pickpocket

Then there is the more subjective category --- stuff that is way overpowered but is clearly working as intended.

4) Overpowered items/combos that don't fall into sections 1-3
Examples: Shield of balduran, robe of vecna + alacrity, lots of things involving project image/simulacrum, anything involving HLAs or 9th level spells prior to ToB, the list goes on .. and on ... and on

Those categories are approximately the order in which they bug me. Exploiting things that are clearly bugs being the worst down through to just exploiting the lack of balance in the game as designed.

So my votes for cheesiest would be:
1) item -- the acid katana in sola mod wins. excluding mods its a toss up but maybe cloak of mirroring.
2) spell -- chain contingency in combat (its supposed to have a 10 round cast time that just isnt implemented right)
3) tactic -- Probably offscreen cloudkill for sheer idiocy

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Wed May 15, 2002 2:27 am

MINOR SPOILER BELOW

What if you cloudkill and the Dragon attacks you?
Does the Dragons not attacking you make it cheese or is it the fact that you are taking advantage of the programing. Sardalex attacked my mage when I did this, and because I had prepared with Protection from Energy (or whatever it is called), I managed to kill him... eventually. As I inquired in relation to the umar temple you must stand at the periferal to get the diamond in Amuanator's eye. What would be the advantage of invisibility and hide in shadows if not guerrella tactics and gassing superior enemies? I think cheese is likely the intent to take advantage of programming faults without thinking about another way of approaching a situation... maybe.

I think that the programmers try to take these types of factors into account, ie clay golems, mind flayers and the Demi-lich in watchers keep that follows you out the door.

When does strategy become cheese?

kopywrite · Post by **kopywrite** » Wed May 15, 2002 4:29 am

There's a fine line between good tactics and cheese. As Glod says, exploiting game bugs is cheese but if thats how you want to play... for a while I thought it was hilarious that you could get two rings of Gaxx... also in the prepatched (or pre Baldurdash) version the wand of cloud kill ignored magic resistance. I shamelessly exploited these bugs no end for a while

But using stuff like simulacrum or the cloak of mirroring? Again its down to personal preference but having just started using the Sola mod I need that stuff!

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Wed May 15, 2002 5:08 am

glod, the moonblade +5 is worse...

EQUIPPED
chaotic commands, neg plane protection, armor of faith free action and draw on holy might??????

makes twinkle and staff of magi look cheap....

i took it away from sola, too good for him, gave him some nice stuff and made him grandmaster of his fav weapons...

i got the moonblade +5 in soa!!!

after bodhi 2 encounter, whew!!!!

i force talked sola and got the moonlight dialog, after running thru all the npc dialogs, 2 per char, right???according to read me...

and instead of getting moonblade +4, got +5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dual wielding moonblade +5 and acid katana is SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bun bun is evil!!!!

UAI rocks!!!!

total regen, immune to just about everything, and the blade is so nasty!!!

gave sola crom and ixl spike so he doesnt feel bad...

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Wed May 15, 2002 11:56 am

Good points, guys, but I think the concept is REALLY more vast!
Imagine to BE your PC and live the situations:

-Would you wander through a city with a stoneskin active?
All the people woud see a grey-skinned guy/girl...

-Would you REALLY change weapons during a battle?

-Would you pre-buff with spells, without knowing (from a reload)
what lies ahead?

-Would you take a member in your party, just 'cause you need him
for a specific task (unless you're evil/mad)

Even WORSE, would you BEAR NALIA in your party, even for a short
time, just to open a chest?

I classify this Royal Cheese, 'cause obviously no real chest
could ever push a man to bear Nalia for a moment.
(OK, maybe we can imagine a "roleplayable" situation...-
-Nalia:
"How can we help the poor, wasting time on worthless chests??"
-PC (knowing that the chest is HEAVILY trapped):
"Oh, but we actually ARE helping the poor... believe me...
But this only applies if you're sort of evil.

)

Anyway, they're just examples...
The Cheese Guild is your home!

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Wed May 15, 2002 1:21 pm

I haven't gotten sola yet in my game with that mod so I don't have moonblade but that sounds terrible. I'm a bit disappointed with that mod. A lot of the "smarter AI" just means more cheating by the AI and the new items are ridiculous. Like SoA/ToB isn't already the most Monty Haul campaign ever.

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Wed May 15, 2002 5:14 pm

A couple of lines in addition to what has been said:

Would you "pause" in the middle of a fight, in real life, in order to think which should be your next move???? Why isn't this considered to be cheesy as well, gentlemen?

Only some tactics matters do I consider to be cheesy, and nothing else --like, (as Glod pointed out) casting cloudkill from a distance and waiting for your enemy to die.

@ Littiz: Yes. I would bear Nalia for many hours, unlike cheery-giggly-Immy! Well, telling the truth, I'm very fond of the NPC's I had chosen in my first time through the game, and it's really hard to let them go. You see, it's like losing old friends, and I don't like it. I regret to tell you, sir, but Immy wasn't one of them. Bwahahaha! (Take it easy. Just kidding. Eh, ... not really!)

Cheers

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Wed May 15, 2002 5:32 pm

I think Cheese is expessialy exploiting weak AI or bugs.
Cloadkill on dragons while you're out of sight is a good example.

I don't like cheesy (most of the times) I prefere rollplaying.
But when you solo you can realy use the experience of a dragon kill, and it's alot touger to kill it without cheese................

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Wed May 15, 2002 10:40 pm

I think I side with the Role palying logic: "Would my character do blah"? As well as the continous exploitation of programming faults.
I've also noted that in my second run I've used less area affect spells than in my first. Perhaps because a CE half-orc berserker is different then a LG elven mage.

Asking thje question "would my character do blah?", results in would my character scout ahead, would my character risk his life needlessly, would my character send others to their deaths, would my character prepare.... etc. The point is that this question makes you think... and subsequently solve a problem. Incedenlty it is also the first question that a character actor asks.

While exploiting programming the first time is intellegent any continous use of such strategy is agreabley uninventive. It's like in a table top game those guys who always play the same class becuase they don't know how to play anything else and don't want to rethink the rules.

Ergo cheese is lack of innovation. (ah ergo and cheese all nicely raped toghether, I can smell the feta... Or is that Plato's foot) Alternatley it may be percieved as a lack of desire to think about what you are doing.

- Jaheria keeps on asking me where I intend to go, this section of the romance ahs replayed three times, and I am a Half-Orc... shouldn't she not try and hit on me.

Glod · Post by **Glod** » Thu May 16, 2002 12:21 am

The role-playing logic makes sense as an extra category for my list, however it doesn't cover all the others. Lots of abuses make perfect sense for roleplaying (assuming your character doesnt have a death wish). Who wouldn't use the shield of balduran to help against beholders if their life was actually on the line?

@Littiz
Most of the stuff you listed I would never do, but I disagree a bit about the stoneskin one. In a world as dangerous as BGs I think mages would go around with stoneskin up much of the time. I mean ... not on dates =P, but for wandering around the tough parts of town then heck yeah. I don't actually keep stoneskin up a lot of the time just cause I don't rest much so I only cast it when the need arises, but in principle it makes perfect sense to keep it up.

@Aubrey
Part of the reason for pausing is that you can't be 6 people in real time. However I think I may start a game where I only allow myself a party of NPCs on scripts and no pauses for my PC. That sounds fun ... and probably pretty challenging given how stupid the scripts are. Do NPC caster scripts work at all?

I checked out the Sola moonblade its hard to say if its cheesier than the acid katana. Both are certainly far beyond anything in the normal game.

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Thu May 16, 2002 12:34 am

@Aubrey: of course, pausing is the grandaddy of cheese!!!!
But I fear we really have to SURRENDER to this one...
Let's assume we have "intuitive" characters!

Have you tried Ascension? The final battle lasted about
45 MINUTES every time I tried. If you try, just for the fun,
to let it go UNPAUSED, it lasts no more the 7 SECONDS....
And you won't be the winner, I assure you!!!

About Nalia: ok, I was kidding, I had her too in my
first time. I'm good, you know!

Her larger portrait is tolerable (though of course she's no Immie)
but, I mean, what kind of lines did they give to her?!?!?!

@Glod: ok, but maybe you wouldn't walk through the city
all sorrounded in a shimmering globe all the time?

Aubrey · Post by **Aubrey** » Thu May 16, 2002 3:04 am

@ Littiz -- Having given a second thought to "in real life" issue and all, I changed my mind. Given the fact that we do live in our pc character's world (while playing), BG IS the real world, if we want to be fair. And knowing how this world is, it makes perfect sense to walk around the city in stoneskin. And now with Sola mod on, it appears to be a choice of a wise, a measure of precaution, rather a necessity than some caprice or silliness.

About Nalia, Immy & others: one of the facts that makes BG the best game ever (IMO) concerns convincing NPC's. Each one has his/her own unique character, his/her weaknesses and strenghts, prons and cons, and thus their lines. They all are melting down to their background and their decisions about their lives. Just think of Jan: it is said he's amusing, even hilarious. Still, there are moments you can hardly bear his talking. This does not necessarily mean that Jan stops being amusing.

Yes, a few months ago I tried to play Ascension, on AD&D difficulty level, but never did it to the end. Despite my frequent pauses, it had been a painful experience, and I wasn't the winner either. But this time I'll persevere!

@ Glod -- I understand the NPC's management issue. However, you have the opportunity to give a Al script and let them go by their own.

To reply your question, yes, caster scripts do work, but not completely satisfactory. If you give Nalia or Aerie, for example, the wizard disabler script, they will cast a couple of very certain spells (maze, etc.) and then they will go for melee (!?) If, again, you give them the wizard agressive script, they will cast all the death spells they know. But so far as that. Next you have to take control of them, or they will ruin the whole party. Only with fighter classes and sub-classes do the scripts work pretty good.

I don't recommend leaving your NPC's alone with their scripts and no pauses. You'll be losing most of the time, and it won't be fun, I assure you.

Cheers

Xan deVir · Post by **Xan deVir** » Thu May 16, 2002 4:09 am

Originally posted by Glod
I checked out the Sola moonblade its hard to say if its cheesier than the acid katana. Both are certainly far beyond anything in the normal game.

Plz post the stats of these two items here.

mynamewasstolen · Post by **mynamewasstolen** » Thu May 16, 2002 11:09 am

@Glod: I don't think making any visible use of spells in Athkatla would fit into the in character category. Magic is out lawed. Even if you have a liscence it's still frowned upon. It would be like walking around New York with a .22 in your belt even if you have a liscence. Everywhere else sure... perhaps using a different formation in the rougher areas or, for the dual classed mages, wearing some armor. So perhaps "in context" or "in this environment/ setting" should be made in addition to the statement "Would my character do blah".

Taking advatage of programming is cheesey, according to what most people said, but at what point are you taking advantage of programming? What makes a game weakness a game weakness? Does thinking about if a real DM would let you get away with it sum it up?

Pausing makes sense becuase it is practical ,you're right you can't be six people and the scripts are pretty dumb.

Why does every one like the Sheild of Balduran so much?

Cats have four paws.
Socrates has four paws.
Socrates is a cat.

Monkeys have tails.
Cats have tails.
Socrates is a monkey.

Monkeys smell bad.
Cheese smells bad.
Socrates is cheese.