to vote or not to vote

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sat May 04, 2002 9:55 pm

Some of the comments in C.E's recent thread on Le Pen brought up an issue I have often considered. The question of voting......

In many countries the right to vote has only been gained after considerable struggle, especially in the case of those groups who were long excluded from the political process by virtue of their gender, race or class........ Indeed, countless governments still deny so fundamental a right to all or most of their citizens.

Do those of us fortunate enough to be living in a democratic society therefore have an obligation to vote?

Is not voting mere apathy? Is it cynical disillusionment? Is it a legitimate expression of dissatisfaction with a particular slate of candidates? Or is it a form of rebellion against the system as a whole?

Thoughts?

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Sat May 04, 2002 10:10 pm

I think it's a combination of apathy; some people are "too busy" or don't want to wait in line. There are plenty of solutions to that (at least here)including absentee ballots, early voting and numerous voting places.
Cynicism is another reason, people feel the candidates are basically the same or all unsuitable, my reply is theres often times a write in available for most positions.
People may dislike all the candidates, I know that's been the case for me, but I still vote, either for a write in, or for the lesser of 2 evils.

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Sat May 04, 2002 10:18 pm

Ditto what T' said.

I have to say, for the last 7 or 8 years or so, I have never had a problem voting. Early ballots are easilly available, and when I've gone to the polling place on election day, I've never had to wait in line longer than about 15 minutes. (Once the line looked to be about 30 minutes long, but I had my early voting ballot that I had not mailed in, and I was able to go to the head of the line and drop it in!) My company gives 2 hours paid time on election day for those who need to vote during the day. I can't fathom why anyone would not vote.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun May 05, 2002 12:08 am

This is what I wrote in the Le Pen thread, which more or less gives my reasons for not wanting to vote.
Australia uses the 2-party preferred system with compulsory voting and we're still consistently faced with having to choose the "lesser of two evils". In spite of the fact that it's compulsory to vote, as much as 15% of the population doesn't bother voting, they just submit blank voting slips, or in most cases write messages on their slips such as "All politicians are liars". Not voting can be a statement in itself, as MnM said earlier. I believe the problem, in Australia, lies not with whether or not it's compulsory to vote, but with the adversarial nature of the 2-party system. Theres very little point voting for any minor parties, as they have little or no chance of gaining any real power, so no matter which party you vote for your vote ends up supporting one of the major parties anyway. Both major parties are so similar in their policies that voters are left with no real alternative for government.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sun May 05, 2002 1:17 am

I for one refuse to believe that not voting is a protest against the system. By voting you actually have a chance to make a difference. The politicians don't care if you don't vote. They are more afraid with knowing who you may vote for against them.

In reference to what Ode posted, if you don't want to vote for a major party then choose a minor one or an independent. They may not hold a majority but they do have power when it comes to passing a bill in parliament.

Mysteria · Post by **Mysteria** » Sun May 05, 2002 1:38 am

I say: go vote!
There have been enough people who have struggled to get the right to vote, we should be happy to be able to vote, not put it away as a nuisance.
I think that if voting is compulsory, even if people just vote blank, it's always better than if they idn't vote at all. This way, one can at last be sure that they didn't care one way or another and didn't actually have an opinion but were just too lazy to express it.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun May 05, 2002 1:42 am

Originally posted by Tamerlane
In reference to what Ode posted, if you don't want to vote for a major party then choose a minor one or an independent. They may not hold a majority but they do have power when it comes to passing a bill in parliament.

I don't feel that not voting is a protest against the system, but the problem is that the minor parties don't have enough power to make a big difference. The govt. majority in the lower house of Parliament, coupled with the requirement of voting along party lines, means that any govt. legislation will automatically get passed when it comes to a vote.

@Tamerlane-Have you studied politics as a subject? I did it for two years in high school, so I'm unusually cynical for our age about the political system. I just wondered because you're the only other Aussie I've seen who's willing to discuss politics. Of course, you're also the only other Aussie at SYM to my knowledge, so that might be it as well

.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Sun May 05, 2002 1:52 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
@Tamerlane-Have you studied politics as a subject? I did it for two years in high school, so I'm unusually cynical for our age about the political system. I just wondered because you're the only other Aussie I've seen who's willing to discuss politics. Of course, you're also the only other Aussie at SYM to my knowledge, so that might be it as well .

I studied History at school and had to do the dreaded Australian section. I do agree with the two party system holding way too much power, but is that not different from the US system. Mind you I have no idea about the US political scene at the moment, Micheal Moore used to keep me in touch but he's not on anymore.

As for being the only Aussies, theres Curdis on vacation at the moment if my memory serves correctly. Jace, Vehemence when he was here and a few others who I forget.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sun May 05, 2002 2:04 am

I only caught the last fortnight or so of Veh's presence, IIRC. Forgot about Curdis and Jace, whoops

.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Sun May 05, 2002 4:14 am

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I don't feel that not voting is a protest against the system, but the problem is that the minor parties don't have enough power to make a big difference. The govt. majority in the lower house of Parliament, coupled with the requirement of voting along party lines, means that any govt. legislation will automatically get passed when it comes to a vote.
<snip>

Well in Denmark a "protest party" (very rightwing) established as a break-out party some 8 years (I belive, can't remember) ago took about 15% of the votes at last election. The party they broke from only once got such an amount of votes back in the 70's (if I remember right).

You will never shift the powerbase by not voting - as said by somebody earlier - Politicians don't care about non-voters cause they only count against them incase they loose.
The powerbase will only shift if another party gets the vote instead.
If 50% of people didn't vote, albeit a powerfull message, if these percent was a broad cut of society the powerbase would still be the same and nobody would care much.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sun May 05, 2002 7:43 am

We had local elections here on Thursday, and in some places the voter turnout was as low as 15%. In some cases, I think it's because people didn't actually know about it - at least, I know some of my friends didn't vote because they realise the elections were taking place. I don't think not voting is a protest - people are just too damn lazy and apathetic. In any case, I have to agree with Xan - voting is how you can make a difference. I have heard talk of adding an abstention box to the voting forms so that people can register the fact that they don't think any of the candidates deserve their vote.

Re. minority parties - I think it's worth voting for them if you think they deserve to be elected. Ok, so they probably won't get in, that doesn't mean your vote is wasted, because their total will increase. The more votes they get, the more of a threat they will become to the other parties, and it might encourage other people who don't think it's worth voting for them that it is worth doing.

@Ode and Tammy don't forget Josh, lurker extraordinaire

BTW, Curdis isn't on vacation, he's moved to the jungle or something

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Sun May 05, 2002 8:41 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a parliamentary system, elected people from minor parties are usually courted by the major parties for consensus building and to establish a dominant voting block. This means that at least some of the concerns of the minor party are addressed or considered.

You can bet that when minor parties garner noticeable percentages of the votes (e.g. 5 or 10%), even if they don't win, the major parties sit up and take notice. This signals that people are becoming disenfranchised with the major parties and that there are issues that need to be dealt with. The Green Party took a small percentage of the vote in the last US presidential election, but it was enough that Gore would have won if those votes had been transferred to him. There's no doubt that next time around, the Democrats will try to siphon Nader's supporters by trying to address Green issues more.

Sometimes, even, minor party candidates can even win when voters become extremely disgruntled with the lessor of two evils they are normally presented with. Just ask Jesse Vetura.

So, I guess I’m saying that even voting for candidates who probably can’t win or writing-in an alternative candidate is still a worthwhile thing to do. Exercising the freedom to vote can be a valid social commentary if done this way, but not voting at all just makes people look apathetic.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Sun May 05, 2002 8:50 am

Mine is purely simple...

...if you don't vote (and pay your taxes

), you don't have a right to complain...

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sun May 05, 2002 9:16 am

Re: Mine is purely simple...

Originally posted by Maharlika
...if you don't vote (and pay your taxes), you don't have a right to complain...

Or you can be a student and get the best of both worlds - vote but not pay taxes

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Sun May 05, 2002 9:53 am

The funny thing about the "small parties can't do anything" is that it is so VERY untrue. Look at England, where the parliamentary system was developed by the people against the monarchy. If public support for small parties increases, they will win. It may take some time, but steadily as the masses become dissatisfied with the ruling party, something new will replace it.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Sun May 05, 2002 10:16 am

Originally posted by Obsidian
The funny thing about the "small parties can't do anything" is that it is so VERY untrue. Look at England, where the parliamentary system was developed by the people against the monarchy. If public support for small parties increases, they will win. It may take some time, but steadily as the masses become dissatisfied with the ruling party, something new will replace it.

While I'm not sure that description of parliament is strictly accurate... In the 19th century the two main parties were Conservative and Liberal (or Tories and Whigs, if you prefer)... the Labour party didn't even exist until 1905 (IIRC), and now Labour and Conservative are the two main parties, and the Liberals are the third party. If a party has the policies that people want, they'll get support.

Dottie · Post by **Dottie** » Sun May 05, 2002 10:26 am

I must admitt I voted blank in the latest election, and I am not sure how I will vote in the next one. (in september I think) The reason for this is part distrust for the available alternatives, and part distrust for the current representative democratic system as whole. For myself I think I could better motivate a blank vote if I were politicly active in other ways, wich sadly Im not. Ofcourse I could vote for the lesser evil, (And in presens of a Le Pen alike I would) But I dont feel comfortable with lending my vote to a party with views that differ very much from mine. It also gives the signal that im happy with their current policies, Wich obviously im not.

@Mahr: Would voting for a "lesser evil" in any way increase my right to complain?

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun May 05, 2002 12:24 pm

I am not old enouh to vote, but here's what I think anyway:

Not voting is a protest against he system, but a stupid one: It is protesting against Democracy, which (almost) everyone agrees is about as good a system for politics as you could ask for, while it is not protesting against specific politicians. One of the worries in the last local Oxford (which is a secure Labour constituency) election was that Apathy (and the Socialist Workers party) would displace Labour because: Half the people who had serious views, and normally voted Labour would now vote socialist, half the people with serious views would vote Liberal Democrats, and the people without serious views wouldn't vote at all; dividing the Labour vote up letting the Tories get the seat. So that is the way in which non-voting can get your views mis-represented.

think about it: Who do you think are going to be the big non-voting bloc? Not the hardline right wingers that's for sure.

K0r/\/f1@k€$ · Post by **K0r/\/f1@k€$** » Sun May 05, 2002 1:23 pm

Originally posted by Georgi
We had local elections here on Thursday, and in some places the voter turnout was as low as 15%. In some cases, I think it's because people didn't actually know about it - at least, I know some of my friends didn't vote because they realise the elections were taking place. I don't think not voting is a protest - people are just too damn lazy and apathetic.

I would definitely agree with the lazy/apathetic part if you were talking about the general elections, but at this level, it is hard to see any difference being made at all. All the councillors seem to do is think of elaborate ways to waste money, such as ridiculous sculptures that get labelled as eyesores after a couple of years.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:48 pm

I agree with what many others have posted. Although not voting is a statement, it's a lame objection since as Xandax describes, your non-vote can never change the powerbase. Also, like Mysteria says, the right to vote is something people have fought for and still are, so it's IMO a right to cheerish.

@Dottie: Whereas I certainly think everybody should vote - you too - I must add in your favour that I think the political parties in Sweden differ very little compared to other countries I know anything about. The parties with any chance whatsoever to get into the parliament (there is a 4% threshold here) are IMO so similar so it hardly makes any difference. However, in this situation there is IMO two ways to go: either the "lesser evil" strategy, ie you vote against what you dislike the most, or, better, you vote for a small party you believe in even if you know they won't make it into the parliament. The number of votes a party gets is important for the party's future and survival even if they don't get a single parlament seat.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a parliamentary system, elected people from minor parties are usually courted by the major parties for consensus building and to establish a dominant voting block. This means that at least some of the concerns of the minor party are addressed or considered.

You are correct, and this is one of the reasons I am personally in favour of the parlamentary system rather than the 2-party system used for instance in the US, UK and France. It seldom happens that a major party gets sole majority (ie more than 50% of the parlamentary seats), so the big parties have to negotiate with the small ones, thus forcing the big parties to consider some of the small parties agenda. If the parlament consists of equally large bodies of opposing major parties, a small party will make the difference between getting majority or not for an idea, and is this situation also a very small party can be quite powerful.