Sort of a cross between a Fighter and a Rogue - with most of the Rogue's benefits:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?147275
HiPS-like utility at level 5 with 2 Ghost Steps (..3 at level 6).
HiPS at level 11.
At level 6 and up (with 3d6 of sneak attack damage), Ghost Step makes this character a better sneak attacker than a pure rogue at those lower-to-mid levels. Ghost Step is particularly useful at the start of a fight to flank the attackers and have them focus on Khelgar.
All of that while still being able to make Cleaves with enhanced damage against NON-critically-immune opponents (at level 4 it's +6 damage per attack with a Rapier: +3 from Strength, and +3 from Intelligence).
Not-Rogue - Kaedrins.
AKA the.. 'Rogue-like'? 
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
Tricky wrote:AKA the.. 'Rogue-like'?
..or, Near-Enough Rogue.
Basically done to provide a little more "oomph" to what a Rogue provides in the campaigns. (..in the OC in particular it's virtually required due to all the Undead.)
It's actually tough to get all 3 components of a Rogue in a build - even with Kaedrins, in something close to a high BAB structure (both attack numbers and number of attacks).
The components are (in addition to a higher BAB):
1. Trapfinding, Disable Device, Open Lock (at every level)
2. Stealth and full Sneak Attack Dice (at every level)
3. Access to Crippling Strike for access to Epic Precision.
#3 alone requires either:
A. 10 levels of Rogue (not Ninja), OR
B. 8 levels of Dark Lantern, OR
C. 1 level of Dark Lantern + 4d6 of sneak attack from other sources (and Death Attack doesn't count).
A & B screw with BAB (particularly number of attacks).
C's the only viable option, so you work the build from that point.
#1 requires :
Rogue level 1, or Ninja level 1, or Scout level 1. (Divine Seeker also has it, but would substantially delay access to those skills for use in the OC.)
#2 was where I compromised somewhat - the sneak attack dice progression isn't continuous when compared to a Rogue.
The most obvious "Not-Rogue" or "Rogue-like" would be based on a Thug. With that you could radically enhance the number of Ghost Steps via Martial Stalker. You could even ditch HiPS, Dodge, and Mobility and a full class (Shadow Dancer) as a result (..improving the BAB structure and Sneak Attack dice as well). (..Scout + Ranger + Swift Ambusher doesn't provide enough sneak attack dice.)
Still, in testing I liked what this build had to offer vs others.
Why does swashbuckler get sneak attack? I thought Kaedrins was just bringing material from other sourcebooks? What book gave swash sneak dice?
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:Why does swashbuckler get sneak attack? I thought Kaedrins was just bringing material from other sourcebooks? What book gave swash sneak dice?
Feat Daring Outlaw:
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Grace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6.
Benefit: Your rogue, ninja, and swashbuckler levels also stack for the purpose of determining your sneak attack bonus damage. For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level swashbuckler would deal an extra 6d6 points of damage with her sneak attacks, as if she were an 11th-level rogue.
You combine grace and stealth to deadly effect.
I don't like the implementation however..
The feat specifies only Rogue and Ninja for leveraging Sneak Attack dice. In actuality, you can use other sneak attack dice classes. (..which to me is a total exploit.)
There are also other related feats for other classes: Swift Ambusher (for Ranger), and Martial Stalker (for Fighter and Thug).
Though not a pen and paper feat, I'd personally like to see something like this:
Hunter’s Prey – levels in Barbarian, Hexblade, & Paladin (and only those classes) - count for purposes of Favored Enemy continuation from the Ranger class. 2 Favored Enemies are required before this feat can be selected.
The feat specifies only Rogue and Ninja for leveraging Sneak Attack dice. In actuality, you can use other sneak attack dice classes. (..which to me is a total exploit.)
There are also other related feats for other classes: Swift Ambusher (for Ranger), and Martial Stalker (for Fighter and Thug).
Though not a pen and paper feat, I'd personally like to see something like this:
Hunter’s Prey – levels in Barbarian, Hexblade, & Paladin (and only those classes) - count for purposes of Favored Enemy continuation from the Ranger class. 2 Favored Enemies are required before this feat can be selected.
That's an insane feat Swashbuckler does need a boost of course.
Swashbuckler does need a boost of course.Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:That's an insane feat
Yeah, other-wise the "Swash" is only used for 3 levels..
Of course Kaedrins also altered the sneak attack dice progression of stacked classes as well - and it's not as powerful. (..it doesn't just "stack" anymore.) So this feat is sort of a gem among rocks.
I think it had to be done though when you consider the Thug class.
Is this from pen and paper sources? I'm familiar with a variant of rogue, thug. This is in 3.5. Instead of rogues sneak dice it gets fighter feats.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:Is this from pen and paper sources? I'm familiar with a variant of rogue, thug. This is in 3.5. Instead of rogues sneak dice it gets fighter feats.
(Wrong): I'm pretty sure that it is (..though I don't know - I don't play D&D anymore - stopped after 2nd edition about 2 decades ago). Kaedrin seems to strive for that (I'm not sure it's 3.5), and only offers very few truly custom additions.
To me (assuming Kaderins is pen and paper), these rules/classes are a bit "wonky". The most obvious example is the Swiftblade class - it's just way over-powered.
I used to think that the Ninja was basically a Rogue/Monk rip.. but I never really considered it in relation to Crippling Strike to obtain Epic Precision, or Monk Wisdom AC where it's dependent on the level of Ninja as well. Still - it's pretty much a Rogue/Monk rip.
Diddo for the Thug's Rogue/Fighter rip.There are any number of ways they could have improved the situation without adding an extra class that at least looks like a carbon-copy and devalues the original classes.
EDIT: couldn't find any resource with the Thug having sneak attack dice, so perhaps it's totally custom.
Also, having looked at it now (PnP version) - it's pretty bland, there doesn't seem to be much motivation for the Thug as a class.
..just to many similar classes.
Ninja looks pretty similar to PnP.
But Swiftblade is completely different..
So it's just Kaedrins, not PnP.
Some of the awesome classes, I am thinkng of fuechland (sic) lyracist eventually get really strong but leveling them up they are gimped until they get the prestige class. I'm not sure if swiftblade is like this.
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:Some of the awesome classes, I am thinkng of fuechland (sic) lyracist eventually get really strong but leveling them up they are gimped until they get the prestige class. I'm not sure if swiftblade is like this.
Ooops, I was looking at the wrong Swiftblade.
This:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Swiftblade_(3.5e_Class)
as opposed to this:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327
..and Kaedrins is pretty close to the Prestige class IMO.