What if you happened to be publicly known as Lawful Good (or something close) and all you did were good deeds, but inside, what you really crave for is to slaughter everybody, but the fear of retribution makes you cringe and only do good deeds.
What would be your alignment then?
Remember, good deeds, evil thoughts.
alignment question
alignment question
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
Probably CE (Cowardly Evil 
).
Well, evil anyway. Your actions in the short term doesn't necessarily say anything about your alignment. You may do good deeds because you benefit from them and not because you like to help. Or in your case because you don't dare to do otherwise.
On the other hand it may be that you only think you wan't to slaughter everyone. Maybe if you tried you would find out that you hadn't stomach for it, perhaps you're neutral...
).Well, evil anyway. Your actions in the short term doesn't necessarily say anything about your alignment. You may do good deeds because you benefit from them and not because you like to help. Or in your case because you don't dare to do otherwise.
On the other hand it may be that you only think you wan't to slaughter everyone. Maybe if you tried you would find out that you hadn't stomach for it, perhaps you're neutral...
/Zorac
Allow me to elaborate
What if you weren't just afraid of retrobution in this life but also in the afterlife that you actually went out of your way to do good? Remember, all the time you're thinking 'slaughter, carnage, destruction...!'
What if you weren't just afraid of retrobution in this life but also in the afterlife that you actually went out of your way to do good? Remember, all the time you're thinking 'slaughter, carnage, destruction...!'
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
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HighLordDave
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Alignment is a matter of beliefs and thoughts, not deeds. It is your core ideals and basic value system.
Think about this: Why don't you just walk over to your next door neighbour's house, beat the hell out of him and take his car? If it's because you fear legal or vigilante retribution but would if you knew you wouldn't be caught or punished, then you are evil. If it's because you know that is the wrong thing to do, you are good. If you don't because it would be too much trouble, but might steal it if you needed the car, then you're neutral.
Some people belive in God because it's a win-win situation. If you worship God and He does exist, then you're going to get into heaven. If you worship God and it turns out that He doesn't exist, you've lost nothing in death. That's a very selfish reason to believe in God (and if you believe in an omniscient God, then it will catch up to you on Judgement Day).
When you talk about "slaughter, carnage, destruction" and other evil thoughts, I assume that you're referring to more than the usual, "I hope you rot in Hell!" that you shout out the window to the guy who just cut you off in traffic, or when you dump your leaves in the neighbour's yard because his dog keeps crapping in your flower beds.
Not committing crimes because you fear enternal retribution is neither a good nor evil trait. In fact, I believe it to be normal to have some nasty thoughts at one time or another (ie-you want your ex-girlfriend to gain a lot of weight after she dumps you, or you hope that your little brother is plagued by acne for the rest of his life, etc.). Having a secret hunger to cause death or maiming can be interpreted as either evil or insane. If you revel in the suffering of others and enjoy being the cause of it all, you're evil. If it's the Voices telling you to spill the blood of 5,000 in order to appease the Gods, then you're probably not evil, just schizophrenic (which is outside the standard alignment parameters). Of course, some people believe that insanity and evil are the same thing.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: HighLordDave ]
Think about this: Why don't you just walk over to your next door neighbour's house, beat the hell out of him and take his car? If it's because you fear legal or vigilante retribution but would if you knew you wouldn't be caught or punished, then you are evil. If it's because you know that is the wrong thing to do, you are good. If you don't because it would be too much trouble, but might steal it if you needed the car, then you're neutral.
Some people belive in God because it's a win-win situation. If you worship God and He does exist, then you're going to get into heaven. If you worship God and it turns out that He doesn't exist, you've lost nothing in death. That's a very selfish reason to believe in God (and if you believe in an omniscient God, then it will catch up to you on Judgement Day).
When you talk about "slaughter, carnage, destruction" and other evil thoughts, I assume that you're referring to more than the usual, "I hope you rot in Hell!" that you shout out the window to the guy who just cut you off in traffic, or when you dump your leaves in the neighbour's yard because his dog keeps crapping in your flower beds.
Not committing crimes because you fear enternal retribution is neither a good nor evil trait. In fact, I believe it to be normal to have some nasty thoughts at one time or another (ie-you want your ex-girlfriend to gain a lot of weight after she dumps you, or you hope that your little brother is plagued by acne for the rest of his life, etc.). Having a secret hunger to cause death or maiming can be interpreted as either evil or insane. If you revel in the suffering of others and enjoy being the cause of it all, you're evil. If it's the Voices telling you to spill the blood of 5,000 in order to appease the Gods, then you're probably not evil, just schizophrenic (which is outside the standard alignment parameters). Of course, some people believe that insanity and evil are the same thing.
[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: HighLordDave ]
Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
Not necessarily
Chaotic Evil is insane. Chaos is insane. Neutral Evil may be described as simply being a greedy, egotistical bastard that preys on weaknesses. Lawful Evil means dictator or some formed of organised mayhem (can be quite contradictory but the Baatezu seem to manage).
Chaotic Evil is insane. Chaos is insane. Neutral Evil may be described as simply being a greedy, egotistical bastard that preys on weaknesses. Lawful Evil means dictator or some formed of organised mayhem (can be quite contradictory but the Baatezu seem to manage).
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
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HighLordDave
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Chaos is not by definition insanity. Chaos means that someone has no respect for laws.
Take a mob criminal. He knows what the law are regarding organised criminal activity (ie-racketeering, etc.), but chooses to ignore the laws and pursue a life of crime. Is he insane? No. He has made a conscious choice to break the laws.
Insanity, in the sense of alignment is much like criminal insanity under the laws in the United States. In order to be criminally insane, a defendant must prove that they didn't know what they were doing was wrong. People who suffer from schizophrenia or have the mental capacity of a six year-old are criminally insane.
To good people, evil is insanity. However for the purposes of alignment, good and evil are choices, as are law and chaos. Certainly people suffer from insanity which causes them to change alignments, but evil and chaos are not by definition insanity.
Take a mob criminal. He knows what the law are regarding organised criminal activity (ie-racketeering, etc.), but chooses to ignore the laws and pursue a life of crime. Is he insane? No. He has made a conscious choice to break the laws.
Insanity, in the sense of alignment is much like criminal insanity under the laws in the United States. In order to be criminally insane, a defendant must prove that they didn't know what they were doing was wrong. People who suffer from schizophrenia or have the mental capacity of a six year-old are criminally insane.
To good people, evil is insanity. However for the purposes of alignment, good and evil are choices, as are law and chaos. Certainly people suffer from insanity which causes them to change alignments, but evil and chaos are not by definition insanity.
Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
This is true. Chaos can either be something that you are (insane or simply extremely indivisualistic) or you actually being a templar of it as a cause as in destruction of organization (like the Revolutionary league or the Slaad which can be both).
Anyway, here's something I was wondering about: Which of the outer planes do you think represents the way you view the world or rather would like the world to be as?
I think the world is a little too much Gray Waste lately. I would like it to be like the plane which I think happens to be the best plane: Bytopia.
Anyway, here's something I was wondering about: Which of the outer planes do you think represents the way you view the world or rather would like the world to be as?
I think the world is a little too much Gray Waste lately. I would like it to be like the plane which I think happens to be the best plane: Bytopia.
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
Quick rundown on the Outer Planes:
Elysium - True Good (neutral good) - a plane of true unselifsh love to others and altruism. Home of the Guardinals.
Bytopia - Good with lawful tendencies - a 2 layered plane of honest trade and work. The locals believe in working for the common good. Home of the adamantite dragon.
Mt. Celestia - Lawful Good - a 7 layered plane of purest compassion. This place combines the epitome of Law tempered by goodness. Bahamut - the platinum dragon (and Paladine of the Dragonlance novels) live on the first layer. Home of the Archons.
Arcadia - Lawful with good tendencies. A place of perfect order where everything organizes itself for the common good. Most people find it a bit too strict. Home plane of the Formians.
Mechanus (Nirvana) - True Lawful (Lawful Neutral) - Plane of perfect order. The plane itself is a huge machine with cogs and gears spinning endlessly. Word of advice: DO NOT break any rules here. Home of the Modrons and their god-like supreme entity Primus.
Acheron - Lawful with evil tendencies - Not a nice place. The layers have giant metal cubes floating in mid air and somtimes crashing into one another. A plane for warrirors who forgot what they were fighting for and now live only for the war. Home of the Rakshasa.
Baator - Lawful Evil - The Nine Hells, The Ninefold Crucible. This plane has many names. It is a plane where law and evil hold sway. The plane is harshly controlled by the meticulously ordered devils therein. Ruled by the Lords of the Nine. Home of the Baatezu.
Gehenna - Evil with lawful tendencies - It's name is taken from the Hebrew for Hell. A place of giant floating volcanoes and utter horror. NOT a nice place to visit. Home of the Yugoloths (who some say are the worst of the fiends).
The Gray Waste - True Evil (neutral evil) - the plane of ultimate evil. The senseless evil is pictured as the epitome of greed, hate and depravity. The plane is completely gray because the evil drains all color, which hurts the eyes of the natives. Home of the Night Hags.
Carceri (Tarterus) - Evil with chaotic tendencies - The prison plane. The layers are all one inside one another as you decend deeper into the prison. The ancient Greek titans are caged here. This plane may cage a god. Home of the Ghereleths.
The Abyss - Chaotic Evil - The bottomless pit of despair. This plane has an infinite amount of layers (though some say it only has 666). One of the most dangerous planes there is (if not the most dangerous). There is no order here, instead, anyone with enough power (Demon Lords such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, Yeengohu and the list goes on...) to bully underlings does so. Home of the Tanar'ri.
Pandemonium - Chaos with evil tendencies - This cavernous plane is the spiritual home of the insane. Winds shriek through the caverns driving everyone and everything completely insane. Not somewhere you want to while you afternoons in. Home of the Howlers.
Limbo - True Chaotic (chaotic neutral) - The plane of complete chaos and randomness. This plane is made out of a goo of all elements and may be shaped by thought. In fact, the Githzerai shape entire cities in this way. Home of the Slaad and their masters Ygorl and Ssendam (spell the latter's name backwards).
Ysgard - Chaos with good tendencies - A place for good natured free spirits. A truly beautiful place but can be quite dangerous. The Norse pantheon make their home here. Home of the Lillendi.
Arborea - Chaotic Good - A beautiful natural setting. This place is the place for freedom and the happy go lucky. People do good deeds here on a whim. Home of the Eladrin.
Beastlands - Good with chaotic tendencies - The Happy Hunting Grounds. A place with intelligent talking animals. This plane has nature at its wildest and most splendid. Home of the Bariur.
Hope this helps.
Edit: Oops! Forgot a plane.
The Plane of Concordant Opposition - Neutral - The 'center' of the Outer Planes, the Outlands. This plane is basically divided into 4 sections: the Hinterlands which are too wierd to explain, the gate towns, each with a portal to the plane they represent, the rings, beyond the gate towns and towrds the spire (an infinite column in the center of the plane) there are 'rings' which have a suppresing ability on magic and psionic abilities. The 4th place is Sigil, which floats on top of the infinite spire and has portals to literally everywhere, home of the Lady of Pain and her Dabus servants. The Plane of Concordant Opposition is home to the Rilmani.
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Rodo ]
Elysium - True Good (neutral good) - a plane of true unselifsh love to others and altruism. Home of the Guardinals.
Bytopia - Good with lawful tendencies - a 2 layered plane of honest trade and work. The locals believe in working for the common good. Home of the adamantite dragon.
Mt. Celestia - Lawful Good - a 7 layered plane of purest compassion. This place combines the epitome of Law tempered by goodness. Bahamut - the platinum dragon (and Paladine of the Dragonlance novels) live on the first layer. Home of the Archons.
Arcadia - Lawful with good tendencies. A place of perfect order where everything organizes itself for the common good. Most people find it a bit too strict. Home plane of the Formians.
Mechanus (Nirvana) - True Lawful (Lawful Neutral) - Plane of perfect order. The plane itself is a huge machine with cogs and gears spinning endlessly. Word of advice: DO NOT break any rules here. Home of the Modrons and their god-like supreme entity Primus.
Acheron - Lawful with evil tendencies - Not a nice place. The layers have giant metal cubes floating in mid air and somtimes crashing into one another. A plane for warrirors who forgot what they were fighting for and now live only for the war. Home of the Rakshasa.
Baator - Lawful Evil - The Nine Hells, The Ninefold Crucible. This plane has many names. It is a plane where law and evil hold sway. The plane is harshly controlled by the meticulously ordered devils therein. Ruled by the Lords of the Nine. Home of the Baatezu.
Gehenna - Evil with lawful tendencies - It's name is taken from the Hebrew for Hell. A place of giant floating volcanoes and utter horror. NOT a nice place to visit. Home of the Yugoloths (who some say are the worst of the fiends).
The Gray Waste - True Evil (neutral evil) - the plane of ultimate evil. The senseless evil is pictured as the epitome of greed, hate and depravity. The plane is completely gray because the evil drains all color, which hurts the eyes of the natives. Home of the Night Hags.
Carceri (Tarterus) - Evil with chaotic tendencies - The prison plane. The layers are all one inside one another as you decend deeper into the prison. The ancient Greek titans are caged here. This plane may cage a god. Home of the Ghereleths.
The Abyss - Chaotic Evil - The bottomless pit of despair. This plane has an infinite amount of layers (though some say it only has 666). One of the most dangerous planes there is (if not the most dangerous). There is no order here, instead, anyone with enough power (Demon Lords such as Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, Yeengohu and the list goes on...) to bully underlings does so. Home of the Tanar'ri.
Pandemonium - Chaos with evil tendencies - This cavernous plane is the spiritual home of the insane. Winds shriek through the caverns driving everyone and everything completely insane. Not somewhere you want to while you afternoons in. Home of the Howlers.
Limbo - True Chaotic (chaotic neutral) - The plane of complete chaos and randomness. This plane is made out of a goo of all elements and may be shaped by thought. In fact, the Githzerai shape entire cities in this way. Home of the Slaad and their masters Ygorl and Ssendam (spell the latter's name backwards).
Ysgard - Chaos with good tendencies - A place for good natured free spirits. A truly beautiful place but can be quite dangerous. The Norse pantheon make their home here. Home of the Lillendi.
Arborea - Chaotic Good - A beautiful natural setting. This place is the place for freedom and the happy go lucky. People do good deeds here on a whim. Home of the Eladrin.
Beastlands - Good with chaotic tendencies - The Happy Hunting Grounds. A place with intelligent talking animals. This plane has nature at its wildest and most splendid. Home of the Bariur.
Hope this helps.
Edit: Oops! Forgot a plane.
The Plane of Concordant Opposition - Neutral - The 'center' of the Outer Planes, the Outlands. This plane is basically divided into 4 sections: the Hinterlands which are too wierd to explain, the gate towns, each with a portal to the plane they represent, the rings, beyond the gate towns and towrds the spire (an infinite column in the center of the plane) there are 'rings' which have a suppresing ability on magic and psionic abilities. The 4th place is Sigil, which floats on top of the infinite spire and has portals to literally everywhere, home of the Lady of Pain and her Dabus servants. The Plane of Concordant Opposition is home to the Rilmani.
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Rodo ]
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
In regard to your actual question, at the beginning of this thread, obeying the law/doing good because you are afraid of punishment is lawful evil. You obey the law, sure, but only because you don't want to be incarcerated. If, however, you can get away with something evil by bending but not breaking a law, then you'd likely do it.
@craig
You interpert the planes according to how you view the world, this is where layers of a plane come in. Each layer is a different view of the entire plane's general alignment (for example, the Abyss has infinite layers, since Chaotic Evil is so completely unpredictable and random).
You interpert the planes according to how you view the world, this is where layers of a plane come in. Each layer is a different view of the entire plane's general alignment (for example, the Abyss has infinite layers, since Chaotic Evil is so completely unpredictable and random).
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
The planes are heaven/hell. You go there when you die, that is your soul goes through the Astral Plane, losing its memories and going to the plane that matches your alignment where a new body is formed for you. You are now a petitioner. However you may be reformed into one of the planar races, like Archons or Tanar'ri and the very faithful are turned by their respective deities into Aasimon, the most powerful of celestials (Devas - all 3 kinds, Planetars and Solars). If the petitioner dies while on the outer planes, 2 things may happen. If you die on your home plane, your essence merges with that of the plane. If you die on a different plane, you simply cease to exist in any way - absolute oblivian.
You can never hope to grasp the source of our power. We are forever.
Godd*** telecommunication companies have a lot to answer for...Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>Mechanus (Nirvana) - True Lawful (Lawful Neutral) - Plane of perfect order. ~their god-like supreme entity Primus.[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Rodo ]</STRONG>
The Present is an Illusion, The Future is a Dream and The Past is A Lie!