Mysterious crashes plague computer.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:25 am

As continued from Neverwinter Nights 2 - GameBanshee Forums

So since rougly tuesday/wednesday I've noticed a lot of bluescreens in various DirectX intense games. By comparison, Baldur's Gate isn't affected. I have no real clue yet as to what it going on. It seems to be a slight overtaxing of the computer that triggers it. Things like showing one too many advanced shader effect. The blue screen shows me some sort of memory access error and tries to make a memory dump (but I never let it finish doing that). Since last week I've only installed a printer to print a flight ticket, Oblivion to check out a mod and Neverwinter Nights 2 - all expansions included. I didn't notice things started to go wrong until I installed Neverwinter Nights 2.

System Specs (full DXDiag report will come later):
Processor Manufacturer: AMD
Processor Type: Athlon XP
Processor Speed: 2.0 Ghz
Operating System / Service Pack: WindowsXP with SP3 (dual to Ubuntu on the same disc)
System RAM: 1 gigabyte
Video Card Manufacturer: MSI
Video Card Model: MSI/Nvidia Geforce 7600 GT
Video Card RAM: 256 megs
Video Card Driver Version: Nvidia Geforce ION 190.38 (WHQL)
Sound Card Manufacturer: Nvidia
Sound Card Model: nForce SoundStorm
Sound Card Driver Version: 6.14.0348 (3.48)
Motherboard:Nvidia Nforce 2

Things I have tried:

The games I've tested have so far all been on my slave drive, E:. Thinking maybe something bad was writting from that drive to the memory, I performed a disc surface scan. No corrupted sectors were found
Running games at minimal settings. This appears to improve stability a little bit, but bluescreens are inevitable.
Updating my Geforce Drivers. I am running the very latest, 190.38 and I have run a slightly older one. Didn't write down that version number.
Cleaning out my computer of dust buildups (since my graphics card is passively cooled, this is kind of important). Although the weather is a bit hot right now, I'm running the computer with the case opened. Overheating and power consumption related crashes seem unlikely.
I replaced a badly working fan on my power supply while I was at it. (in my case it's easily replaced by a case fan and some epoxy glue.)
I performing a virus scans with AVG and McCaffee. Considering how young this installation is, that I generally handle my computer with care and the fact that these two programs couldn't find a thing, I'd say my computer is virus free.
I played Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate and Vampire: Redemption on my C: without crashing the computer. Also Portal and Half Life 2 on E:. However, these aren't very graphic intensive games. No or few shaders, etc.
I have performed a surface scan of my master drive, which didn't reveal anything. Even though the game isn't installed there, windows keeps its swap file on that drive.
I cleaned up both drives so they now unfragmented and have around 25% free space.

Things I am currently doing:

Playing games.

Things I haven't tried yet:

See if there is a way to scan my computer memory for bad sectors, like I did with my drives.

**************************************************************************

Note: Scroll down for DXDiag, it didn't fit in this post.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:38 am

Have you got another video card you can try out for test purposes?

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:04 am

AVG found nothing. I was only able to get a trial scans for McAffee (and only of the master drive), and I couldn't get to Norton without submitting credit card info. So I didn't. While McAffee only scanned C: (trial restrictions), it found nothing either. Taking into account how careful I handle my computer as well, I'm sure enough there are no virusses on my computer at all.

galraen wrote:Have you got another video card you can try out for test purposes?

One worn out Radeon 9800xt without a fan (I constructed my own fan for it in the past, but I switched and disassembled it). It can run windows for short amounts of time without overheating, but not if I play games. Note that my new Geforce is only 10 months old. While it's an old model, it's still pretty new.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:10 am

I played some Vampire Redemption and Jade Empire from my C: drive without crashing. As chance would have it what little games I have on C: are all low graphics intensive games. Vampire Redemption and Baldur's Gate are all old games. There nothing there to tax my system much. Jade Empire is pretty much the same, even though it isn't as old of a game. It uses the aged Aurora engine, with perhaps only a few simplistic shaders (light effect around the edge of characters) that it's predecessors lacked entirely.

I have about 3 Gb left on that partition. Does anyone know of a small demo game that makes heavy use of advanced shaders?

Edit: I played a bit of Portal and Half Life on my slave drive without crashing. While Half Life a pretty fast running game on any system, it does make light use of shader 2.0. Neverwinter Night 2's spell effects are much more intense than that. Oblivion the heaviest game, making plentiful use of shader 3.0. Crashes on that game are not situational and unpredictable.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:35 am

Oblivion the heaviest game, making plentiful use of shader 3.0. Crashes on that game are not situational and unpredictable.

Does that mean it doesn't crash, or that you can predict when it crashes?

As you sort of hinted, age of the game doesn't necessarily indicate how hard it drives the PC, or how well it utilizes the resources. For instance I can run Oblivion quite happily on my PC, and not just on minimum settings, and even Fallout 3, but I can't run KOTOR, let alone KOTOR 2.

Even though your graphic card is 'only' ten months old it would still be my prime suspect, especially if it doesn't have a dedicated cooling fan. Heating problems with it may not look likely now, but that could be because the damage has already been done.

Try installing one of the games that you're having problems with on the slave onto the C: drive, pain in the but, but that will answer the question, 'is it just the slave drive?'.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:02 am

I completed a complete disc check of C:. That was actually mostly my unaffected Ubuntu partition, but still. It had to be done. No errors found. I also did a DXDiag scan, which I'm adding to the first post after I'm done with this one.

galraen wrote:Does that mean it doesn't crash, or that you can predict when it crashes?

I can see the confusion there, especially since I didn't exactly include the NWN2 thread I made earlier into this discussion. In Neverwinter Nights 2 the game only crashes when I'm both in the cutscene/dialogue mode AND viewing a character that has some kind of magic (shader) effect on it. Seperately viewed, they don't make the game crash. I can very much anticipate and cause crashes.
Oblivion, being a heavy-weighter, has shaders, specular lightening and whatnot all over the place. It crashes whenever it wants to. On my longest run I was able to play it for about five minutes before it crashed. Interesting side note: I only installed it last monday, and it ran fine then. It didn't start crashing like NWN2 does now.

Even though your graphic card is 'only' ten months old it would still be my prime suspect, especially if it doesn't have a dedicated cooling fan. Heating problems with it may not look likely now, but that could be because the damage has already been done.

Very good, very scary point! The damage may already be done. I'll have to hide behind the fact that because there is no fan on the GPU, it didn't collect dust. While the computer itself may still have been slightly warmer than usual, I have the back side of the PCI slots (where you find those metal strips you take out to insert new stuff) completely opened up to allow for better air flow.

Try installing one of the games that you're having problems with on the slave onto the C: drive, pain in the but, but that will answer the question, 'is it just the slave drive?'.

I'll try to make a second installation of Fallout 3 on C:. That means some other software will have to go though. I guess I have no choice but to be thorough. (edit: I just discovered I can make 11 Gb of free space by compressing unused files. I've never done that before, so it might be fun to try.

)

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:26 am

The DXDiag feedback is pretty big, it didn't fit in my initial post. I'm posting it here instead, somewhat stripped down. There is some Dutch here and there, so feel free to ask questions if it doesn't make any sense.

Code: Select all

------------------
System Information
------------------
Time of this report: 8/9/2009, 16:55:20
Machine name: -------
Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp.080413-2111)
Language: Dutch (Regional Setting: Dutch)
System Manufacturer: ASUSTeK Computer INC.
System Model: A7N8X2.0
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Processor: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2400+, MMX, 3DNow, ~2.0GHz
Memory: 1024MB RAM
Page File: 153MB used, 2308MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 5.03.2600.5512 32bit Unicode

------------
DxDiag Notes
------------
 DirectX Files Tab: No problems found.
 Display Tab 1: No problems found.
 Sound Tab 1: No problems found.
 Music Tab: No problems found.
 Input Tab: No problems found.
 Network Tab: No problems found.

--------------------
DirectX Debug Levels
--------------------
Direct3D: 0/4 (n/a)
DirectDraw: 0/4 (retail)
DirectInput: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectMusic: 0/5 (n/a)
DirectPlay: 0/9 (retail)
DirectSound: 0/5 (retail)
DirectShow: 0/6 (retail)

---------------
Display Devices
---------------
 Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT
 Manufacturer: NVIDIA
 Chip type: GeForce 7600 GT
 DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
 Device Key: Enum\PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_02E0&SUBSYS_06401462&REV_A2
 Display Memory: 256.0 MB
 Current Mode: 1024 x 768 (32 bit) (85Hz)
 Monitor: Plug en Play-monitor
 Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
 Driver Name: nv4_disp.dll
 Driver Version: 6.14.0011.9038 (English)
 DDI Version: 9 (or higher)
Driver Attributes: Final Retail
 Driver Date/Size: 7/14/2009 20:54:00, 5842816 bytes
 WHQL Logo'd: n/a
 WHQL Date Stamp: n/a
 VDD: n.v.t.
 Mini VDD: nv4_mini.sys
 Mini VDD Date: 7/14/2009 20:54:00, 7741664 bytes
Device Identifier: {D7B71E3E-41A0-11CF-9C54-4B2603C2CB35}
 Vendor ID: 0x10DE
 Device ID: 0x02E0
 SubSys ID: 0x06401462
 Revision ID: 0x00A2
 Revision ID: 0x00A2
 Video Accel: ModeMPEG2_C ModeMPEG2_D ModeWMV9_B ModeWMV9_A 
 Deinterlace Caps: {6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(YUY2,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive 
 {335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(YUY2,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch 
 {6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(UYVY,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive 
 {335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(UYVY,YUY2) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch 
 {6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(YV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive 
 {335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(YV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch 
 {6CB69578-7617-4637-91E5-1C02DB810285}: Format(In/Out)=(NV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_PixelAdaptive 
 {335AA36E-7884-43A4-9C91-7F87FAF3E37E}: Format(In/Out)=(NV12,0x3231564e) Frames(Prev/Fwd/Back)=(0,0,0) 

Caps=VideoProcess_YUV2RGB VideoProcess_StretchX VideoProcess_StretchY DeinterlaceTech_BOBVerticalStretch 
 Registry: OK
 DDraw Status: Enabled
 D3D Status: Enabled
 AGP Status: Enabled
DDraw Test Result: Passed
 D3D7 Test Result: Passed
 D3D8 Test Result: Passed
 D3D9 Test Result: Passed

-------------
Sound Devices
-------------
 Description: NVIDIA(R) nForce(TM) Audio
 Default Sound Playback: Yes
 Default Voice Playback: Yes
 Hardware ID: NFORCE_VAD
 Manufacturer ID: 1
 Product ID: 100
 Type: WDM
 Driver Name: nvapu.sys
 Driver Version: 6.14.0348.0000 (English)
 Driver Attributes: Final Retail
 WHQL Logo'd: n/a
 Date and Size: 6/17/2003 16:24:00, 286976 bytes
 Other Files: 
 Driver Provider: NVIDIA Corporation
 HW Accel Level: Full
 Cap Flags: 0x0
 Min/Max Sample Rate: 0, 0
Static/Strm HW Mix Bufs: 0, 0
 Static/Strm HW 3D Bufs: 0, 0
 HW Memory: 0
 Voice Management: No
 EAX(tm) 2.0 Listen/Src: Yes, Yes
 I3DL2(tm) Listen/Src: Yes, Yes
Sensaura(tm) ZoomFX(tm): No
 Registry: OK
 Sound Test Result: Passed

---------------------
Sound Capture Devices
---------------------
 Description: NVIDIA(R) nForce(TM) Audio
 Default Sound Capture: Yes
 Default Voice Capture: Yes
 Driver Name: nvapu.sys
 Driver Version: 6.14.0348.0000 (English)
 Driver Attributes: Final Retail
 Date and Size: 6/17/2003 16:24:00, 286976 bytes
 Cap Flags: 0x0
 Format Flags: 0x0

-----------
DirectMusic
-----------
 DLS Path: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\GM.DLS
 DLS Version: 1.00.0016.0002
 Acceleration: Enabled
 Ports: NVIDIA(R) Kernel Synthesizer, Hardware (Kernel Mode), Output, DLS, Internal, Default Port
 MPU-401, Hardware (Kernel Mode), Input, No DLS, External
 MPU-401, Hardware (Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, External
 NVIDIA(R) nForce(TM) Audio, Software (Kernel Mode), Output, DLS, Internal
 Microsoft MIDI-mapper (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
 USB-audioapparaat (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, External
 USB-audioapparaat [2] (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, External
 MPU-401 (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, External
 NVIDIA(R) DLS Synthesizer (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
 Microsoft GS Wavetable-software (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Output, No DLS, Internal
 MPU-401 (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Input, No DLS, External
 USB-audioapparaat (emulatie), Hardware (Not Kernel Mode), Input, No DLS, External
 Microsoft Synthesizer, Software (Not Kernel Mode), Output, DLS, Internal
 Registry: OK
 Test Result: Not run

-------------------
DirectInput Devices
-------------------
 Device Name: Mouse
 Attached: 1
 Controller ID: n/a
Vendor/Product ID: n/a
 FF Driver: n/a

 Device Name: Keyboard
 Attached: 1
 Controller ID: n/a
Vendor/Product ID: n/a
 FF Driver: n/a

Poll w/ Interrupt: No
 Registry: OK

-----------
USB Devices
-----------
+ USB-mainhub
| Vendor/Product ID: 0x10DE, 0x0067
| Matching Device ID: usb\root_hub
| Service: usbhub
| Driver: usbhub.sys, 4/14/2008 00:15:38, 59520 bytes
| Driver: usbd.sys, 8/4/2004 14:00:00, 4736 bytes

----------------
Gameport Devices
----------------
+ PCI-bus
| Matching Device ID: *pnp0a03
| Service: pci
| Driver: pci.sys, 4/14/2008 22:13:24, 68224 bytes
| 
+-+ Standard gameport
| | Matching Device ID: *pnpb02f
| | Service: gameenum
| | Driver: gameenum.sys, 4/14/2008 00:15:30, 10624 bytes

------------
PS/2 Devices
------------
+ Default Keyboard (101/102 keys) of Microsoft Natural PS/2-toetsenbord
| Matching Device ID: *pnp0303
| Service: i8042prt
| Driver: i8042prt.sys, 4/14/2008 22:05:52, 53504 bytes
| Driver: kbdclass.sys, 4/14/2008 22:09:04, 25088 bytes
| 
+ keyboard program for Terminal Server
| Matching Device ID: root\rdp_kbd
| Upper Filters: kbdclass
| Service: TermDD
| Driver: termdd.sys, 4/14/2008 22:33:46, 40840 bytes
| Driver: kbdclass.sys, 4/14/2008 22:09:04, 25088 bytes
| 
+ HID-compliant mouse
| Vendor/Product ID: 0x046D, 0xC045
| Matching Device ID: hid_device_system_mouse
| Service: mouhid
| Driver: mouclass.sys, 4/14/2008 22:00:54, 23552 bytes
| Driver: mouhid.sys, 8/4/2004 14:00:00, 12288 bytes
| 
+ Driver for Terminal Server mouse
| Matching Device ID: root\rdp_mou
| Upper Filters: mouclass
| Service: TermDD
| Driver: termdd.sys, 4/14/2008 22:33:46, 40840 bytes
| Driver: mouclass.sys, 4/14/2008 22:00:54, 23552 bytes


------------------------
Disk & DVD/CD-ROM Drives
------------------------
Drive: C:
Free Space: 3.4 GB
Total Space: 15.3 GB
File System: NTFS
Model: SAMSUNG SV4012H

Drive: E:
Free Space: 13.5 GB
Total Space: 38.2 GB
File System: NTFS
Model: WDC WD400BB-00GFA0

Loki[D.d.G] · Post by **Loki[D.d.G]** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:19 am

Okay, another culprit here might be your PSU. Perhaps it could be malfunctioning and causing those BSODs whilst your system is being taxed by performance hungry games.

Or, it could be as baron667 suggests here;

baron667 wrote:would you please note that a main OS partition (your "C:") with no space left, and this means less than 10-12% of free space available, will not let your system work properly.
let alone a resource-hungry game like this one, even a simple word processor page might suffer slowdowns or freakouts, since system files and driver-related libraries, temporary or not, will keep getting written and rewritten on that partition regardless of most possible advanced system settings that would let programs write data on other partitions instead.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:44 am

The missus wants to see a movie tonight, so I think my geeking has to stop for the moment. I will continue as soon as romance permits.

Loki[D.d.G] wrote:Okay, another culprit here might be your PSU. Perhaps it could be malfunctioning and causing those BSODs whilst your system is being taxed by performance hungry games.

I happen to be very familiar with those crashes. From my experience they look different, but I don't know for sure. More artifacts and stuff. I'll try decoupling some devices later

Or, it could be as baron667 suggests here;

I can see his point, but I'm not sure if it would result in this effect. Nevertheless once I am done with testing Oblivion on C: I might as well give it a go.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:04 pm

When I read

Page File: 153MB used, 2308MB available

the same point as occured to Loki (the Baron quote) did occur to me, but then I saw that you have 20% (3.4GB of of available out of 15.4GB) available on you C: drive. Rather small in current terms, but I suspect you have a partition on that drive for Linux. Anyway, 20% should be enough, simplest way to check is to try and defrag it. If there is insufficient available that will soon tell you, an error message should pop up if there's not enough free space for the task. Simply put, if there's enough room for a defrag there's enough room for pretty much anything.

It'll be interesting to read the results of installing Fallout 3, if you can free up enough space for it on the C: drive. I don't know which would be worse, the problem still existing on the C; or not; if it only occurs on your E: driv, can you replace it?

Just to check, are both drives IDE or SATA? If the PC is over three years old it's almost certainly be IDE, if less than two, almost equally certain to be SATA. In between could be either, or a combination of both, like my rig.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:51 pm

I noticed the defrag finished while we took a quick break from watching the Watchmen, so I jumped back to test things.

I freed up more space (said my goodbyes to Jade Empire on C:\) and completed 3 defrags on each drive, plus one on the pagefile. I after all your comments I had a good feeling about it, so I put back all my graphics options on NWN2. I cast mage armor on all my party members, lined them up in view and open dialogue with Khelgar. No crash! Seriously, WOW! After three days of dealing with this issue and others as the result of my failed attemps to fix things, that really makes me happy. I know making free space and defragging makes a difference every now and then, but I have never seen it make such a big one. I wonder how much this has affected my computer issues in the past.

I still have to some serious playtesting ahead of me and it's too late for that this evening. I have a good feeling about it though. So thanks all, I am indebted to each of you. In particular baron667, I kinda missed out on your final post on the NWN2 forum until Loki pointed it out to me. I'd PM you if I could buddy.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:51 am

FALSE ALARM.. the crashes still happen. For whatever reason, it ran better last night than it does now. I'm still getting crashes, but at least I now know it has nothing to do with disc space or fragmented page files.

This is getting tiresome. I have to work today, so I won't be fixing things. Still open to suggestions.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:10 am

I've been in contact with MSI today, and I made the best progress so far. First they came with the idea of pointing a case fan at the passive heatsink, to cool it extra during crashes. This was interesting as it made no difference at all. It was good to know the heatsink hadn't damaged the GPU after all.

MSI doesn't make their own firmware drivers, they pretty much fall in line with whatever drivers Nvidia writes. In my case, a 2 year old driver for my 4 year old model video card solved my issues (for the time being). The 'latest' driver, 190.38 is nothing more than a generic, unspecific driver. The 162.18 driver is more stable. I could perhaps upgrade them a little further, but so far everything runs just fine. Installing drivers I don't strictly need might just as well introduce more trouble again.