Northern Aliance

CM · Post by CM » Wed Nov 21, 2001 5:06 am

Now i don't want to start another discussion thread.
My already tarnished reputation can't handle another discussion.

This link shows the crimes of the Northern Alliance.
They are pictures.
And very graphic, certainly not for the weak hearted or those who are distrubed by killings etc.
[url="http://millat.pibc.com/current/killling/1811_exc.htm"]http://millat.pibc.com/current/killling/1811_exc.htm[/url]

NCT · Post by **NCT** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 5:26 am

You know,we choose to see what suits us most of the time.But in war,atrocities happen on both sides.Especially,a sort of civil(fraction)war,mixing religion and other issues.Don't forget that The NA is comrised of Uzbeks,Tatziks,mostly Muslims,too,who,not many years ago were allies with the Taleban against the then Soviet Union.But I agree with you:No discussion.

Gruntboy · Post by **Gruntboy** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:34 am

"And very graphic, certainly not for the weak hearted or those who are distrubed by killings etc."

Ditto for anyone looking at pictures of the WTC.

Not that I'm justifying war crimes, of course.

But what about all the Taliban attrocities? At least the Northern Alliance are visiting revenge on Taliban and Taliban supporters. These people are Foreign Mercenary Insurgents with no regard for Afghan life.

Chechen, Saudi and Pakistani Mercenaries far from home have been transported, supplied and armed by someone. Now they expect quarter?

None asked for, none given.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:46 am

Why...

...why...

...why?

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:52 am

Originally posted by Maharlika:
Why...

...why...

...why?

Why, because it has been going on since the start of man. Every country and nation, has hidden secrets. Nothing shocks me anymore, but the sad thing is, it should.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:46 am

Originally posted by Darkpoet:

Why, because it has been going on since the start of man. Every country and nation, has hidden secrets. Nothing shocks me anymore, but the sad thing is, it should.

Eloquent and true.

But to drop to a more pragmatic level, Afghanistan, like the liberation of Mussolini's Italy, the Paris Resistance and Vietnam, is a war of back alleys and small, vicious victories over an enemy that would and has slashed the throats of your friends, given half a chance. It is a war about fundamentals like how we live, and you can't tell the rightness or wrongness of a cause by looking at what one side does to the other. Nor can you tell either of 'em to stop. That has never, ever worked.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:35 pm

Grunt, the list of Taliban atrocities are well documented on tv.
I see replays on CNN all the time.
But the NA stuff doesn't get any coverage.
I am just trying to show a balanced picture.

If you wish i could post some of the taliban stuff, but it is just as bad and in some cases worse.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 12:52 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
Grunt, the list of Taliban atrocities are well documented on tv.
I see replays on CNN all the time.
But the NA stuff doesn't get any coverage.
I am just trying to show a balanced picture.

If you wish i could post some of the taliban stuff, but it is just as bad and in some cases worse.

What atrocities, in this case? Atrocities are committed against those who either aren't involved directly in a war (like civilians), or against those combatants who observe a system of rules governing conduct. There is none in Afghanistan, and if there were, it would be laughed out of the country for its lack of realism.

To use your images, a Taliban soldier tries to surrender after first being captured. Now, there are no prisons. There's no judicial system to try prisioners. There are no police to watch 'em. There's no food to feed 'em, and barely enough to feed the troops. Rules of engagement in such situations are that you shoot your prisoner today, so he doesn't look down on you from behind the telescopic lens of a gun, tomorrow.

Call it horrific and disgusting if you like, it's both. But it's not an atrocity, as I understand the term by its current use.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Nov 21, 2001 1:58 pm

Again i don't want to get into a discussion, but here goes anyway.
My point is that the man was humilated first and then killed when could have joined.

I agree there is no system of government in Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean basic morality should go out the window.
Yes he was a taliban.
Just because he is part of the taliban he can't be given decent human diginty.

You hear that people are switching sides.
Why aren't they killed?
The NA readily accepts them.
Why wasn't that the case in this mans case.
He could have family and children.
What of them now?

According to islamic law in the case of war prisoners aren't allowed to be killed. They are to be given shelter and provided for.

That above is an ideal, but i think killing a person in such a horrific manner is an atrocity.
We most likely will differ in our use of the word, but that is how i see the act.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:24 pm

IMO I think that this thread should be closed. This posting is rediculas and stupid. That is the way war goes, if you don't like then ignore it.

Fable with you being a moderator. Why in the hell do you express your opinion, when you know it will make them angry??
I just don't understand your thinking. Is it a goal to piss people off, so you can edit their posts and close their threads? To me, I don't think it is fair. This board use to be fun, until certain people start posting. Then everyone goes into lurk mode. You should moderate, not instigate.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:43 pm

@DP, I *did* miss the fact that this was simply intended as a place for Fas to point out the pictures. That said, nothing I can find in the rules states you can't add opinions to a thread, and I was following along behind others--including your own, which I agreed with.

I'm perfectly willing to close this thread if Fas would prefer it that way, but I don't see what the harm is in intelligent discussion among people who respect one another. It seems to me that this forum has succeeded pretty well in that regard. Sure, we have occasional folks who see red in some areas, but by and large, SYMers are really pretty tolerant of a range of views. I'd sooner see 'em discussed, here, than see a spam-only SYM which refuses to permit serious conversation because of the fear of emotions. Fas and you both can have your separate views of war. I see nothing wrong with both being expressed in the same thread.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:55 pm

Hmmmmmmm, I see.

Have you ever been in a war? Or seen someones head blown off, close up?? Ever been shot at??

I have been in two countries, where this has happened. I'll tell you something it really sucks. That is one reason I hate the media. I'm surprised that there wasn't a picture of the guy missing his head, for all you ghouls.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:31 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
According to islamic law in the case of war prisoners aren't allowed to be killed. They are to be given shelter and provided for.

According to the Geneva convention, prisoners of war are not allowed to be killed either.

What can I say. Euronews, a channel that shows news from all European countries broadcasting companies, recently reported several several NA killings of Taliban's who had put down their arms, including a group of teenage boys who were hiding in a school. The NA are warriors in a tradition where no mercy in shown for prisoners, if blood has been let, more blood must be let. But the NA also show they have some humanitarian cares, whether this be for political reasons or not I can't say.

In an interview, an Italian doctor working for an international aid organisation, said he had been working at several locations that NA has taken over, and he said they treated most of the prisoners fairly, let them have medical aid if needed etc. Also, when the Eurpean reporters came with cameras and all to a place where they had heard some Taliban's were held prisoners, the NA officer called for medical help for the 4 injured Taliban's, and let the reporters go away with them to a hospital in Kabul. Of course I think the cameras affected this decisions, the NA are not stupid, but I still think it's a step in the right direction.

Sorry, no discussion.

It saddens me anyway, and a Taliban is also a human being just like us. He might be cruel, mad or brainwashed, but if he has surrendered, he should not be either humiliated or killed. In an ideal world, I think he should stand trial for crimes against humanity.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:55 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
Hmmmmmmm, I see.

Have you ever been in a war? Or seen someones head blown off, close up?? Ever been shot at??

I have been in two countries, where this has happened. I'll tell you something it really sucks. That is one reason I hate the media. I'm surprised that there wasn't a picture of the guy missing his head, for all you ghouls.

So by closing one eyes to the facts of the world, "simply" because it sucks would get us where?

Nobody sane would like war - but war exists because of mankind, and closing our eyes and not discussing them will not make them go away.

CM · Post by CM » Thu Nov 22, 2001 4:59 am

Please close this thread Fable.
That is what i think would be right.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 9:00 am

Okay, @Fas, but only because you started it with a completely different intention in mind: as a simple link to pictures. Now you know that everything is fair game for conversation in SYM; and that is as it should be, within the bounds of respect for all present.

Note, this isn't the start of a trend, so if anybody wants to start a topic and then subsequently changes their mind in the future, they're out of luck.