a father's rights

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:39 am

alrighty...here's something that has been bugging me.
i'll give you a few cases all where a couple gets pregnant.
first, the couple both want the baby...no problem.
second, they both don't want the baby...no problem if they are both okay with that option.
third, the mother wants it, the father doesn't. his life gets ruined for the next 18 years.
fourth, the mother doesn't want it, but the father does. he is willing to pay all of the expenses, and will take full responsibility for the entire kid's life. the mother will not have to see him/her or pay a single nickel. she can go out and abort it without any concern for the father, for whom this might be his only chance to have a child.

so...which is it...is the child half mine or all hers? or is it just whatever is convenient for the mother?

**i don't want this to turn into an abortion debate...**

CM · Post by CM » Fri Oct 19, 2001 10:50 am

Ouch this is a tough one.
But i think since the child will be born in the woman's body, she does have paramount responsibility to the decision.
However i don't believe in abortion.
The decision should be made mutually, but tough topic and a good one!

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:12 am

I am on the totally opposite side of Fas. I do believe in abortion, but in this case I am for the father.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:23 am

It takes two. That's all I have to say.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:46 am

I apologise for making this sound mercantile but each person in the couple makes up 50% of the child. Therefore 50% is the fathers and the mothers, my opinion is that both has a stake in the child and they should shoulder their responsibility.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:57 am

Originally posted by Nippy:
I apologise for making this sound mercantile but each person in the couple makes up 50% of the child. Therefore 50% is the fathers and the mothers, my opinion is that both has a stake in the child and they should shoulder their responsibility.

my question is not really about responsibility as it is about fairness. especially in the last case where the father is willign to shoulder all of the responsibility.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:31 pm

Originally posted by nael:
my question is not really about responsibility as it is about fairness. especially in the last case where the father is willign to shoulder all of the responsibility.

But while he can say that... the father can't shoulder the physical responsibility, can he? I don't think it's possible to totally separate this from the abortion debate. It's the woman who has to go through the pregnancy.

Besides, why would it be his only chance to have a child?

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:34 pm

She has to agree. Thats all there is to it.
You can adopt you know.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:40 pm

How can something so deeply personal be decided on the basis of abstract judgement, without recourse to interviews and background checks on the couple?

Happy Evil · Post by **Happy Evil** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:56 pm

Originally posted by fable:
How can something so deeply personal be decided on the basis of abstract judgement, without recourse to interviews and background checks on the couple?

Not sure what you mean by abstract judgement.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 12:59 pm

Originally posted by Happy Evil:
Not sure what you mean by abstract judgement.

To quote @Nael:

so...which is it...is the child half mine or all hers? or is it just whatever is convenient for the mother?

All I am saying is that, strictly from my perspective, I can't answer a question so black & white, or provide an evaluation based on abstractions like "the mother" and "the father." I think there's a lot more to be taken into account in every situation, and each one needs to be considered on its own merits.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:01 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
But while he can say that... the father can't shoulder the physical responsibility, can he? I don't think it's possible to totally separate this from the abortion debate. It's the woman who has to go through the pregnancy.

9 months or 18 years? which has more responsibility? admittedly, the woman would be pretty uncomfortable for those nine months, but how does that compare to how miserbale the father is for 18 years if he didn't want the baby? or how horrible he would feel if he wanted the baby, and she killed it? obviously if her life is at risk or something like that than there is no debate.

Originally posted by Georgi:
Besides, why would it be his only chance to have a child?

testicular cancer for starters, he may have a VERY low sperm count and it was by pure luck that she even got pregnant.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:07 pm

Originally posted by fable:
To quote @Nael:

so...which is it...is the child half mine or all hers? or is it just whatever is convenient for the mother?

All I am saying is that, strictly from my perspective, I can't answer a question so black & white, or provide an evaluation based on abstractions like "the mother" and "the father." I think there's a lot more to be taken into account in every situation, and each one needs to be considered on its own merits.

to simplify the question at hand...what rights do fathers have? the current system is set up to only appease the mother, no matter what she wants, she gets...the father is left with no power, no rights, and no justice.

and of course i agree that there are going to be distinct differences in each couple. but in general, there is nothng that a man can do. the woman can always screw us over. god willing, the two are in a loving relationship and have the same views for this sort of thing, and there wouldn't be a problem. but we all know that this not always the case.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:09 pm

I think in general that fathers should have anything from complete and sole parent rights over the child, to absolutely no rights at all, depending upon the parents in question.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:11 pm

Originally posted by nael:
9 months or 18 years? which has more responsibility? admittedly, the woman would be pretty uncomfortable for those nine months, but how does that compare to how miserbale the father is for 18 years if he didn't want the baby? or how horrible he would feel if he wanted the baby, and she killed it? obviously if her life is at risk or something like that than there is no debate.

testicular cancer for starters, he may have a VERY low sperm count and it was by pure luck that she even got pregnant.

18 years, but it wouldn't be physically part of his body... I have to agree with Fable, the individual circumstances are everything.

I am certainly no expert, but wouldn't some kind of fertility treatments be able to help him?

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:11 pm

Originally posted by fable:
I think in general that fathers should have anything from complete and sole parent rights over the child, to absolutely no rights at all, depending upon the parents in question.

i agree, but that's not what i am trying to get at.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:34 pm

Without stepping on toes...

To be blunt: The female will have the control. It's her body to decide and it's the males decision to have intercourse with her. Once a male has intercourse with her, his decision doesn't count. It's too late to say "I didn't want a child" or if she decides to have an abortion to say "I will not allow you kill my child". You should have known who you where slepping with first.

Is it fair? No , but what in life is fair?

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:39 pm

Originally posted by Weasel:
Without stepping on toes...

To be blunt: The female will have the control. It's her body to decide and it's the males decision to have intercourse with her. Once a male has intercourse with her, his decision doesn't count. It's too late to say "I didn't want a child" or if she decides to have an abortion to say "I will not allow you kill my child". You should have known who you where slepping with first.

Is it fair? No , but what in life is fair?

unfortunately, you are right, that is how society views it...so the moral of the story is...women are inherently evil.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:39 pm

Originally posted by nael:
testicular cancer for starters, he may have a VERY low sperm count and it was by pure luck that she even got pregnant.

In the case of testicular cancer or other disease, sperm is usually frozen for future use. Extremely low sperm count to begin with can be solved with IVF - in vitro fertilisation.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:58 pm

Originally posted by nael:

unfortunately, you are right, that is how society views it

Can you give me another way of looking at it? I'm open minded. I hope everyone here is open minded enough to discuss this in a civil manner.

I came to my view by judging all humans equal. The male has the choose. It's once past this point that his choose is gone.

(Disclaimer: I don't believe Osama is human)