Where did mythology for BG series come from?

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 5:21 am

For all those lovers of Baldurs Gate series.

Where do you think the game mythology (of baldurs gate fame) came from?

Like who thought of Elves,Halflings, mages,druids,trolls,all those monsters etc

was it from a past culture, a fiction writer, merlin himself,group of countries,someones twisted mind ,D&D,etc

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:15 am

Originally posted by at99:
For all those lovers of Baldurs Gate series.

Where do you think the game mythology (of baldurs gate fame) came from?

Like who thought of Elves,Halflings, mages,druids,trolls,all those monsters etc

was it from a past culture, a fiction writer, merlin himself,group of countries,someones twisted mind ,D&D,etc

Complex subject, this. And it's not made any easier by the fact that some creatures had familiar names at one time, but in fact meant something entirely different than they do today.

Take Elves. Shakespeare's Elves, Fairies and Sprites were interchangeable minor air spirits, mischievous and friendly. The modern conception of Elves as a separate race, linked closely to the earth, ancient of days, gifted with magic and sometimes inimcal to humankind, derives straight from Lord Dunsany, the turn-of-the-century author who can be credited with created at least a portion of the modern fantasy genre. His "The King of Elfland's Daughter" and dozens of short stories create the mood, syntax, and background of Elves as they're often portrayed in modern times.

Hobbits were created by JRR Tolkien: the single thing that's original in his books. But Tolkien's hobbits are at least partially out of Kenneth Grahame (The Wind in the Willows), and other writers of English pastoralism, who hated urbanism, sophistication, modern inventions, unclean environments--and also foreigners and the lower class. Tolkien's hobbits are the perfect middle class society. They're friendly, love gardens, feast and make merry, and always know their place around their betters.

Trolls come out of Middle Europe, and you can find them in (among other places) the Brothers Grimm. They were enormous, ugly, brutish creatures. They tended to guard bridges and live under them, exacting a toll of a riddle upon people seeking to cross: answer, or die.

The term "druid" actually refers members of tribes who lived in England when Gaius Julius Caesar invaded at the head of his Roman legions. They (the druids) were still hunter-gatherers, living among the forests (which were plentiful in Britain until the famous Climate Inversion that occurred in Northern Europe in the 13th and 14th centuries). Caesar wrote that they lived in the trees and painted themselves blue before entering battle, a comment which has since been stated with ridicule about the English ever since.

The Druids were no more mystical than any other tribe at the time, and their religious practices wre very similar to those of many other peoples; but the latterday English used druids as a nationalistic rallying point. From there, it was only a step during this ecologically conscious age to convert them into a sort of religious Green Party.

Dwarves and Kobolds occur throughout Eastern and Central Europe, where they existed as sort of local spirits who didn't like trespassing on their territories. Occasionally, they'd invade human territory, provided their wisdom would give them a foothold: a good example is the Grimm fairytale, Rumplestilskin. Like some other spirits, they could also be helpful if properly treated; in one Russian fairytale, the little old dwarf assists the industrious, meek step-daughter, and harms the lazy, loud-mouthed daughter of an abusive woman.

The term "mage" derives from a religion, the Magians. They were worshippers of Zorastrianism, one of the earliest monotheistic creeds (a forerunner of Judaism, Christianity and Islam), and believed in the Divine Fire. The Magians lived in ancient Persia (modern Iran) and were very much persecuted under the Islamic regimes--remember that evil mage in Aladdin and his Lamp? He was a Magian, a Magician, as the oral work has it. That's the way the commonfolk thought of Magians: selfish, depraved, hoarders of secret knowledge. Yet another reference: remember the portion in the bible about the Three Magi? Yep, they're Magians. The passage was a piece of propaganda intended to be spread by word of mouth, and gain the conversion of Magians: "If three kings bowed before this child, shouldn't you?"

Small groups of Magians still exist in more tolerant Islamic states and India. Freddy Mercury, of Queen, was a Magian of Magian ancestry. At his death, his body was rendered back to the Divine Fire.

Giants occur throughout the literature of all peoples, and are often associated with earth spirits. A typical example is Ilya Murometz, of whom the pre-Christian Kievan-Rus (modern Ukraine and Russia) bards composed an entire cycle of story-songs. He and his small band of do-gooders, though, ran before the might of the White One with the Sword, in the end, and were turned to stone as they fled--the forced introduction of Christianity, as interpreted by those who were not Christian.

Paladins are simply knights viewed through a romantic haze. By the 16th century, Church attempts to create a code of conduct for the major unit of noble warfare, the knight, were rewarded with success. Orders of knighthood were springing up in many countries for a variety of reasons--some to act as armored extensions of the Church (Roman Catholic, that is), others being formed in subtle opposition, or as political rewards, etc. They were self-policing bodies who could, and did, suspend members that performed in un-chivalric fashion. However, it should be noted that courtesy or generosity to the lower class was never considered a virtue. When Sal-al-Din, the great Arabic commander, allowed tens of thousands of citizens out of a besieged city on the verge of starvation, to allow his troops a convenient cover for escape, Richard the Lion-hearted simply and deliberately mowed down commoners and troops, alike, without concern.

Priests? Well, that one's sort of self-explanatory.

Clerics were simply the medieval class who were brought up to the priesthood, knowing how to read, and having access to knowledge that no one in the secular hierarchy did. Consequently, their knowledge was sometimes regarded as magical in origin. It should be remembered that superstition was one of the greatest weapons in spreading Christianity. The Merogivian kings of France believed that their success in one important battle was due to a banner given them by representatives of the Pope that supposedly had a religious relic in it; they converted on the spot, and demanded conversion of all their captured territories. (They also gave away about a quarter of their holdings to the Church.) Priests were thus seen as powerful figures not directly involved in battle, but capable of great support from the sidelines.

Hope that helps.

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:27 pm

I don't think theres much more we can say...

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:58 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Sal-al-Din, the great Arabic commander
[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Never thought I'd be doing tihs, but...

It's Saladin, not Salaldin. Check you spellings... And he was a Saracen.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:25 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Yet another reference: remember the portion in the bible about the Three Magi? Yep, they're Magians. The passage was a piece of propaganda intended to be spread by word of mouth, and gain the conversion of Magians: "If three kings bowed before this child, shouldn't you?"

I find your bullsh!t here very offensive. I ask that you remove the statements you made about the three Magi being propaganada from your post.

BTW, I just looked up "Magi" and learned something new, that "Magi" is the plural of the latin word "Magus" which means "Persian wise men, or magicians."

CM · Post by CM » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:27 pm

Hate to correct both of you but he was called Saluddin.
Muslim commander who conquer what is now Israel and Jersuluem (how do you spell that?)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:30 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I find your bullsh!t here very offensive. I ask that you remove the statements you made about the three Magi being propaganada from your post.

BTW, I just looked up "Magi" and learned something new, that "Magi" is the plural of the latin word "Magus" which means "Persian wise men, or magicians."

Umm... SS... Fable did nothign wrong here. A question was asked, and he answered. He also merely stated the facts about the bible, and it's numerous "stories" and how they were primarly designed to benefit the white christian man. Also, don't try to manipulate the filter so that you may swear. It is a breach of forum rules.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:32 pm

Originally posted by Fas:
Hate to correct both of you but he was called Saluddin.
Muslim commander who conquer what is now Israel and Jersuluem (how do you spell that?)

No Fas, I have four different sources in front of me, all with it saying "The Saracen Leader during a Crusade to Jerusalem, Saladin".

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:34 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:
Never thought I'd be doing tihs, but...

It's Saladin, not Salaldin. Check you spellings... And he was a Saracen.

Sal-al-din is one of several spellings I've seen. As to "Saracen," it was a medieval term of used to describe Muslims, hence referred to religion; he could mean Arabs, Africans, Asiatic Islamicists. So I don't see the contradiction.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:35 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Sal-al-din is one of several spellings I've seen. As to "Saracen," it was a medieval term of used to describe Muslims, hence referred to religion; he could mean Arabs, Africans, Asiatic Islamicists. So I don't see the contradiction.

Just give me this one...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:35 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I find your bullsh!t here very offensive. I ask that you remove the statements you made about the three Magi being propaganada from your post.

BTW, I just looked up "Magi" and learned something new, that "Magi" is the plural of the latin word "Magus" which means "Persian wise men, or magicians."

I, in turn, find your way of referring to my opinions as "bullsh!t" offensive and abusive. Feel free to write Buck, if you'd like.

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:37 pm

Oh boy... Please people, no hostilities... We don't need them.. SS calm done, Fable, well, you did what you should so... I don't feel like getting into another one of these...

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:40 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:
Just give me this one...

Okay--this time.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:41 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Okay--this time.

Thnx..

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:42 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:
Oh boy... Please people, no hostilities... We don't need them.. SS calm done, Fable, well, you did what you should so... I don't feel like getting into another one of these...

No problem. I offered one theory of the origin of that story in the bible, and there are others. I'm not being paid to offer 'em all--I think.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:43 pm

Originally posted by fable:
No problem. I offered one theory of the origin of that story in the bible, and there are others. I'm not being paid to offer 'em all--I think.

Thats a good attitude towards. Thank you for being your usual peace keeping self... No headache for me today!

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:03 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:
Umm... SS... Fable did nothign wrong here. A question was asked, and he answered. He also merely stated the facts about the bible, and it's numerous "stories" and how they were primarly designed to benefit the white christian man. Also, don't try to manipulate the filter so that you may swear. It is a breach of forum rules.

First, don't fuss at me for saying using "sh!t" when no one else gets fussed at for doing the same thing everywhere else on this board.

Second, saying the magi were propaganda is not at all a fact.

Third, the Bible was not written to beniffit the "white Christian man." The Bibles was written by numerous authors, all from the Middle East.

What fable did was state a lie that he knew, or should have known, would be very offensive. It also is bullsh!t, whether he believes it or no.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:03 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:
Thats a good attitude towards. Thank you for being your usual peace keeping self... No headache for me today!

Well, thanks--but I really do feel constrained to point out that the Islamic commander in question was named Salahu-d-din in Kurdish, or in Arabic, Sal-al-din; Sal (or Salahu) the son of Din. Saladin is just as good, and it's the European version.

Incidentally--few people know that the Arabs in the Crusades jumpstarted much of what we now call the roots of Amero-European music. Many of our modern instruments originated in the Islamic world, as did the notion of a "broken ensemble," or unrelated groups of instruments playing together. Fascinating stuff.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:07 pm

@SS, please don't call me a liar--I'm no such thing. And once again, I recommend you take this matter to Buck if you have any problems with my conduct. It's precisely the course I'm pursuing, and it will keep the boards free and able to operate while we get this resolved. Thanks.

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:12 pm

Err... I really don't think that racial profiling existed back in 6 B.C., Fable... there WAS no white race, except for maybe the Romans and Greeks. The only real racism mentioned in the Bible was against the Samaritans. You have no background to base that opinion on.