Originally posted by fable Seymour Hirsch of the New Yorker, who's been publishing documents and pictures of the Iraqi prison torture, says he's seen a twelve minute video which shows dogs being led to attack a chained prison, and then guards kneeing him in the back, as he lay, covered with bites. What Hirsch (who was interviewed on the BBC) found interesting was that none of the guards in this video, whose faces are clearly visible, match up with the group already known--scotching the idea that Bush has been pushing of "a few bad apples."
He went on to point out that it's probably pretty widespread, because General Sanchez had given an order last year turning over authority for the prisons to Military Intelligence. Now, he points out, we know that the pictures were made available in February, when Sanchez quickly ordered an investigation, and sent the matter immediately to Rumsfeld's desk. Why, as he put it, didn't Rumsfeld order a cease-and-desist of all intelligence-related treatment of prisoners at that time?
Stay tuned for the next episode in As the Stomach Turns...
Considering that the military is also conducting investigations of alleged prisoner abuse in Afghanistan (which include murder), yea, I'd say this is pretty widespread.
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
Of those surveyed, 73 percent said they believed the abuse documented in an Army report was unjustified, and only 23 percent said it could be justified under some circumstances.
IMHO there are 23% morons running lose in the US...No circumstance can justify this abuse!
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
I wonder how many of those 23% work for the CIA / MI.
The more you think about the story the more it seems to me that the orders to carry out torture must have had the nod from up high (very high). 1 star generals don't take it upon themselves to break army code and the Geneva convention systematically. And even if that was the case it wouldn't continue long without approval from higher civilian authority.
One thing that I fund funny about the media coverage over here (UK) was the willingness to condemn the US soldiers and the disbelief that the good innocent British boys could ever do something similar. Nooo not our boys - those pictures are fakes.
And dear Tony - he didn't read the Red Cross report. Isn't that inconvenient? In the same way that they forgot to take the notes in the meeting he chaired to expose dr kelly's name. The way he didn't know that the intelligence report meant strategic chemical wepons and not tactical.
Ahhh well that's ok Tony. You don't have to know that kind of thing - you are just the PM.
(@fable, you should try to live with in a country run by stinkin Tony Bliar. I doubt you would say he has done a lot of good things for the UK if you had.) rant rant
sorry must be my hangover talking.
I am of on holiday - enjoy - as I shall be back
And a little quote in the light of the US legalising toture.
"if you encourage totalitarian methods, the time may come when they will be used against you instead of for you."
George Orwell
The Pentagon sources said officials also are investigating an allegation that three soldiers took a female detainee to an isolated area, and while one stood guard, the other two attempted to fondle and kiss her until another soldier caught them.
There's much worse. Let's just say there were some MI civilians determined to make their own porn show with some of the detainees. Grab your Rolaids, Fable, you'll need them, if you can keep them down.
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
IMHO there are 23% morons running lose in the US...No circumstance can justify this abuse!
Funny what people can justify, you know. When the Defence Secretary of the most powerful nation on earth said his soldiers didn't answer to the Geneve Convention, nobody gave a flying rodent's behind. Every single day the Israelis commit acts that got Slobodan Milosevic sent to the war crimes trial in Haag, but to most people in the US that's perfectly okay. They're "friends" y'know. Isn't it funny that when the Russians fight the rebels in Chechnya it's called "oppression," while on the West Bank it's called "self defence?" If you sit on the outside like we do over here, it's actually rather scary to see the US public turn a blind eye to the fact that their leaders have lied to them without even trying to hide it, since before 9.11. If the lie is big enough...
Back on topic, it now looks like this is the one thing that's gonna send the Shrub out of office. Pentagon has recieved hundreds of new pictures of prisoners being sexually violated in the most grotesque manner, and it's not just from one prison. If Shrub doesn't fire Rumsfeld and we see some top ranking faces on trial for this pronto, he's never gonna be re-ellected. Putting a few grunts on trial just ain't gonna do it. The only way this can be swept under the carpet is if there was another terrorist attack on US mainland. Looks like the CIA spooks have their work cut out for them....
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Yes, I know it's long. It's definitely worth the read, though. Especially when you get to the kicker, the paragraph I highlighted, after reading the rest.
ASSOCIATED PRESS, GENEVA (May 11) - Up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested ''by mistake,'' according to coalition intelligence officers cited in a Red Cross report disclosed Monday. It also says U.S. officers mistreated inmates at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison by keeping them naked in dark, empty cells. Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was widespread and routine, the report finds - contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment ''was the wrongdoing of a few.''
While many detainees were quickly released, high-ranking officials in Saddam Hussein's government, including those listed on the U.S. military's deck of cards, were held for months in solitary confinement. Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.
The 24-page document cites abuses - some ''tantamount to torture'' - including brutality, hooding, humiliation and threats of ''imminent execution.'' ''These methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information and other forms of cooperation from persons who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an 'intelligence value.'''
High-ranking officials were singled out for special treatment, according to the report, which the International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed as authentic after it was published by The Wall Street Journal on Monday. ''Since June 2003 over a hundred 'high value detainees' have been held for nearly 23 hours a day in strict solitary confinement in small concrete cells devoid of daylight,'' says the report. ''Their continued internment several months after their arrest in strict solitary confinement constituted a serious violation of the third and fourth Geneva Conventions.''
It did not say who the detainees were, but an official who discussed the report with the Red Cross told The Associated Press they include some of the 55 top officials in Saddam's regime named in the deck of cards given to troops. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said detainees held at Baghdad International Airport include many of the 44 ''deck of cards'' suspects already captured. It was not clear if Saddam was at the airport, but the Red Cross has said it visited him in coalition detention somewhere in Iraq last month. The high-value detainees were deprived of any contact with other inmates, ''guards, family members (except through Red Cross messages) and the rest of the outside world,'' the report says.
Those whose investigations were near an end were said to be allowed to exercise together outside the cells for 20 minutes twice a day. The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ''between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ''had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.''
The agency said arrests tended to follow a pattern. ''Authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property,'' the report says. ''Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people,'' it says. ''Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles.''
It was unclear what the Red Cross meant by ''mistake.'' However, many Iraqis have claimed U.S. forces arrested them because of misunderstandings, bogus claims by personal enemies, mistaken identity or simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. One former detainee who claims he was abused, Haider Sabbar Abed, said he was arrested in July when the driver of the car he was in was unable to produce proper papers at a U.S. checkpoint. He was not released until April 15. In one operation, U.S. special operations troops detained nearly the entire male population of the village of Habbariyah, ranging in age from 81 to 13, apparently to prevent terrorists from slipping across the border from Saudi Arabia. The 79 men were held for weeks.
Language problems sometimes led to detainees' ''being slapped, roughed up, pushed around or pushed to the ground,'' according to the Red Cross report. ''A failure to understand or a misunderstanding of orders given in English was construed by guards as resistance or disobedience.'' The report says that in coalition prisons ''ICRC delegates directly witnessed and documented a variety of methods used to secure the cooperation'' of the inmates ''with their interrogators.'' The delegates saw detainees kept ''completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness.'' ''Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities,'' the report says. ''The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.'''
This apparently meant detainees were progressively given clothing, bedding, lighting and other items in exchange for cooperation, it says. The report says the Red Cross found evidence supporting prisoners' allegations of other forms of abuse during arrest, initial detention and interrogation - including burns, bruises and other injuries. Once detainees were moved to regular prison facilities, the abuses typically stopped, it says. The report also cites widespread abuse of power and ill-treatment by Iraqi law enforcement officers under the coalition, including extorting money from people in their custody by threatening to hand them over to coalition authorities. Under the Geneva Conventions, the coalition is responsible for the Iraqi officers' behavior, the report says.
The Red Cross has emphasized that the report was only a summary of its repeated attempts in person and in writing from March to November 2003 to get U.S. officials to stop abuses. Those earlier interventions by the Red Cross far preceded the Pentagon's decision to investigate after a low-ranking U.S. soldier stepped forward in January.
The Geneva-based organization gave its report to coalition forces in February. The prisoner abuse erupted into an international scandal in recent days after the publication of disturbing photographs from Abu Ghraib. The Red Cross said it wanted to keep the report confidential because it saw U.S. officials making progress in responding to their complaints. Still, the American reaction was far slower than that of British officials, according to the report.
It says the Red Cross informed the commander of British forces in April 2003 of ''ill-treatment'' by military intelligence personnel in interrogating Iraqis at Umm Qasr in southern Iraq. ''This intervention had the immediate effect to stop the systematic use of hoods and flexi-cuffs in the interrogation section of Umm Qasr.''
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Originally posted by Moonbiter Uh-Oh. Turns out the pics of Brit abuses might be fake. Anyone wanna bet the Shrub will jump on that opportunity?
I'll take the "no, he won't" for any amount. The legitimacy of the US pictures and the crisis they've caused, as well as Rumsfeld's acknowledgement of their truth, and forthcoming ones that are even worse, mean Dubya can't push that button. No one over here really cares about the UK pictures, frankly. And for once, the general insularity that affects the US seems to be a good thing.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Maybe. I'll have to say there's about half a billion people out there who claims the hollochaust never happened, despite having the evidence thrust in their face. There is a large percentage of lackwits in the US who will grasp at any straw to be able to say "OUR BOYS WOULD NEVER DO THAAAAT! It's a liberal commie plot to turn the world against us, just as the hippy fa***** did in 'Nam!"
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
I read a little report in which a soldier told his view. He was asked by his superior to keep a group of soldiers awake. All the time. He responded "No" then was asked if he had a problem with the order. He responded "How? You guys are trained how to not me" the soldier was something I believe of a paper pusher. Left alone to his own without any help he said "People got creative".
Its a bunch of children trying to run a prison... a bunch who've come back talk about some of the prison's are much like jails for the soldiers too... so many prisoners so little soldiers so little help. Its just a horrible run place by a badly decided war... I feel horrible for those who have unjustified attacks... those who were... god sodomized with glow sticks.. the women and the dogs its all so damn horrible. But the stick needs to come down on the neck of those in charge, I say in November.
Jackie Treehorn: People forget the brain is the biggest sex organ.
The Dude: On you maybe.
Originally posted by Tom2 I wonder how many of those 23% work for the CIA / MI.
If I gave a serious answer as to who I think the majority of the 23% were, I would be run off this board and branded for life.
Originally posted by Sojourner There's much worse. Let's just say there were some MI civilians determined to make their own porn show with some of the detainees.
I'm beginning to seriouly believe this was their goal.
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
Well, it looks like a few officers are getting a reprimand, and that's about it. No criminal charges is being brought up against the people in charge...
I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde
Support bacteria, they're the only culture some people have!
Well, it looks like the beginning of reprisals in Iraq (see favorite website on beheading).
There's nothing a little poison couldn't cure...
What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, ... to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.
Originally posted by Sojourner Well, it looks like the beginning of reprisals in Iraq (see favorite website on beheading).
Yep I saw it. (no I didn't watch the video) No much I can say. I will not go down the path of blaming ever Iraqi though.....we in the US have had people (at least one I know of) who have eaten other human beings... sick sick world sometimes.
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.
Originally posted by Moonbiter Well, it looks like a few officers are getting a reprimand, and that's about it. No criminal charges is being brought up against the people in charge...
You expected anything different? The story being circulated now through official channels is a load of excrement, be assured of that. Those soldiers were acting under orders. If it were a simple matter of some soldiers taking it upon themselves to act like animals, it wouldn't be so widespread - as in, more than a few involved in it. It's clear that a chain of command was involved, because a senior NCO, a Staff Sergeant (grade E-6), is involved in this. Specialists (grade E-4) and below followed suit. Smells like orders to me. All that's "missing" here is the rest of that chain, beginning above the Staff Sergeant. Immediately above him (depending upon how the company is organized) would be either a Sergeant First Class (E-7), or an officer, like a Lt. or Captain.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. -[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
Sheesh. A few days go by, and because there have been no further names named, we're ready to say it's a cover up. Come on! Give it a while. This whole event is driven by public anger; provided that doesn't flag or get distracted (which is very real possibility), higher heads may yet roll. The fun isn't over. Such as it is.
Interesting piece in middle-of-the-road Newsweek. You can read it here.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
I agree - its not over by a long shot. I have the feeling that the lawyers representing the soldiers will kick up a nice fuss. And lets not forget the freedom of information act - a superior piece of legislation that Europe really should to adopt.
And its not over in the UK either. A soldier, who has named names, said that he will testify in a court marshal against the English soldiers who abused Iraqis.
On the other hand, maybe we should back of and not worry so much about what Rumsfeld gets up to. Maybe "People ought to let him do his job" as **** Cheney says. But why ****, why should we? Because "Donald Rumsfeld is the best secretary of defence the United States has ever had". Oh ok President **** Cheney if YOU say so, it must be so.
I am of on holiday - enjoy - as I shall be back
And a little quote in the light of the US legalising toture.
"if you encourage totalitarian methods, the time may come when they will be used against you instead of for you."
George Orwell
