Evil Party, Advice Requested.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:52 pm

He's Multi, so you will grow in both Thief and Mage. Let me warn you, he is a lousy Mage, he doesn't even get to level 9 spells. He is the best thief though.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:25 pm

That's quite allright, I need him more as a thief then as a mage. I have two characters casting high level mage spells, and a third casting high level priest spells (not to mention a bard). If Jan can cast a few low level buffs and the odd chromatic orb, that's all I ask of him. Plus he gets that wacky crossbow of his, no idea how good it is, but meh.

Edit: Just thought of something. Do I need to get lockpicking for Jan or not? With three mages, I plan to have plenty of knock spells, but are there any locks in the game that are un-knockable? If so, are there lots of them and are they important?

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:44 pm

Jan's crossbow sucks, unless you like firing stunning skulls that are easy to save against. I say get him the Firetooth crossbow from the people outside of Watchers Keep.

Also, Jan can still cast spells like Ruby Ray of Reversal, Modrekanians Sword etc. and all lvl 8 spells and below that aren't Necromantic.

When you get skill points with Jan, just put them on Set Traps. His other thieving abilities(excluding Move silently and Hide in shadows) are fairly good and capable of opening almost any lock. Maybe keep a Knock spell or two just in case there is the odd lock that Jan can't open. Though with his homemade equipment on he can open ANY lock.

Words of Advice: If Jan is being attacked, you MUST either cast Stoneskin quick or get someone to slay his attacker because he is a sissy when it comes to staying alive.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:15 pm

Oh Joy. Well, this means I have three characters who absolutely have to be protected, One who can beat stuff up easily, and two who are kinda-melee capable, but not very.

Since I seem to be on a roll with the responses, two further questions;

One: Just how good is Viconia at tanking? Is she capable of it easily, needs some equipment, or is a gauranteed back-rows dweller.

Two: Is there any limit on the number of summons you can have out at one time? Or any limit on the number of summons a single mage can have?

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:26 pm

1. Viconia is capable indeed. Give her a girdle of strength and then some good Armor. Replace the Girdle with Crom Faeyr later and have her use it with a shield. She will be decent. Then give her another good Hammer/Mace(Runehammer, Stormstar etc.) in the Main Hand and Crom in the offhand and she is an excellent tank with slightly above average stamina. I have had personal experience because I beat the game with my Wizard Slayer earlier today and she was always tearing it up while requiring a few extra healing potions here and there.

2. You can have 5 summons out at one time. You can only have 1 Deva/Planetar, 1 Elemental Prince out at a time though. The reasons are obvious as both are absurdly powerful. If you are going to cast Elemental Prince, quicksave before so that if you get Chan, Prince of Air, you can load as he has Globe of Blades and it will hurt your party and your summons. Try to get someone like Zaaman Rul, Prince of Fire. Try to cast Planetars instead of Devas, because they are considerably more powerful. Modrekanians swords make nice partners, and you can have 5

.

Don't worry about the weakness, just cast Stoneskin and then summon some minions to distract while you move to a safer area away from battle. Also, the lvl 10 spell Dragons Breath and Comet are excellent crowd clearers and Dragons breath casts really quick. It also does a whopping 20d10 damage and knocks the enemies unconcious OMGWTF lol.

Deadalready · Post by **Deadalready** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:15 pm

Why not make some teammates? It'd be a good way to flesh out and balance one's own party without having to screw around so much.

~

If not Jaheira is quite a good charcter to use (true neutral).

Jordoo · Post by **Jordoo** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:03 am

Your group sounds like it will be fun. I might slip Jahiera or Cernd in instead of Haerdilas just to have a secound divine caster. I always prefer at least two arkane and two divine casters in a group of six. Jahiera also makes a good second tank when buffed and using sword and shield style there are some really good shields out there.

SP101 · Post by **SP101** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:12 am

You're missing 1 thing : Druid Spells.
The nicest ones : Insect Plague, Ironskin, Creeping Doom, Summon Fire Elemental... etc.

Since you already have Jan/Edwin/Haer'Dalis using Mage spells, you may want to make your PC a Druid of some sort (Avenger is a Druid who has access to a few Mage spells and "wierd" shapechange forms. A Shapeshifter would make an excellent 2nd-tank, in greater werewolf form!)

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:43 am

Mages don't need to be protected, they can protect themselves with their spells.
You don't need the girdle for Viconia, the strength spell helps enough, especially when cast twice in a row.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:52 am

[QUOTE=kmonster]Mages don't need to be protected, they can protect themselves with their spells.
You don't need the girdle for Viconia, the strength spell helps enough, especially when cast twice in a row.[/QUOTE]

For your first point: That's true, if they have Contingencies. But what about when their contingencies run out? They will try to cast a spell and might be disrupted. That's when you need either:
a)Summons
b)Party to help
c)Stoneskin
d)Crowd Clearer spell

For your second point:You need some kind of PERMANENT strength modifier if you want her to even be able to use Plate Mail or Shields etc. Strength's duration is fairly short so when it runs out, unless you cast it again immdiatley, she is extremely vulnerable. That's why she works good with Crom Faeyr.

kmonster · Post by **kmonster** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:32 am

1. with blur and armor spells mages can get about the same AC as warriors, and with mirror image and stoneskin they can absorb more than 15 hits unharmed.
The spell casting time is so low that mirror image or stoneskin can be recast without getting interupted.
This should allow a level 8 mage to survive longer than a pure fighter.
And you get other even far more powerful mage spells like PfMW, mislead and contingencies later ...

2. High strength is only needed to put on the armor, you can keep it when the spell expires. 10 str is enough to wear plate without getting overloaded.
The strength spell lasts quite long, especially at higher levels.
I mainly wanted to point out that Viconia can be a tank even before you get a strength raising item.

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:06 am

[QUOTE=kmonster]1. with blur and armor spells mages can get about the same AC as warriors, and with mirror image and stoneskin they can absorb more than 15 hits unharmed.
The spell casting time is so low that mirror image or stoneskin can be recast without getting interupted.
This should allow a level 8 mage to survive longer than a pure fighter.
And you get other even far more powerful mage spells like PfMW, mislead and contingencies later ...

2. High strength is only needed to put on the armor, you can keep it when the spell expires. 10 str is enough to wear plate without getting overloaded.
The strength spell lasts quite long, especially at higher levels.
I mainly wanted to point out that Viconia can be a tank even before you get a strength raising item.[/QUOTE]

1. That's what I said, you need Stoneskin. Mainly because it comes out quick and is hard to interupt. But the other options can also help.

2. Yes, when you cast Strength, you can equip Plate. However, IIRC, once the spell wears off, if you don't cast Strength again, she loses the armor's effects even though it is still equipped. Getting a Perma-Strength item is the best way to go without too much hassle. Oh, and BTW, when you pick up Viconia, she has only between 9-11 Strength and can't use lots of Items.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:23 pm

First off, thanks for all the feedback (I just love feedback).

Secondly, about Viconia. I'll probably have her get Crom Faeyr. Fact is, I don't have all that many characters that actually use melee items. Korgan will use plenty, but he's only one person and with excellent strength anyway. Haer'Dalis needs combat items, but as a bard he's decidedly limited in armor and weapons. Jan, Edwin and my Main Character don't need weapons or armor, (maybe a light leather for Jan, if I can find one that doesn't hinder his spellcasting). Thus I can give stuff to Viconia, so it's a case of "why not?".

Third: Haer'Dalis gets mage spells? (Like I said, I'm used to 3rd Ed., where Bards get their own spell list). Is it the full set just at a slower pace or does he miss out on certain spells?

Fourth: About druids. While I suppose it's an option, I generally have a poor perception of druids. They can't heal as well as clerics or bombard as well as mages. Insect Plague and so on sounds interesting, having a second high level mage has it's perks, (Jan and HD only get stunted spell lists). I still like the image of two gate spells opening up on the enemy at the same time. Whats the perception out here: Is having a druid preferable to having a high-spell level mage? (I don't feel so, but then again, I'm the one who hasn't played this game in years.)

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:05 pm

[QUOTE=NeoTiamat]First off, thanks for all the feedback (I just love feedback).

Secondly, about Viconia. I'll probably have her get Crom Faeyr. Fact is, I don't have all that many characters that actually use melee items. Korgan will use plenty, but he's only one person and with excellent strength anyway. Haer'Dalis needs combat items, but as a bard he's decidedly limited in armor and weapons. Jan, Edwin and my Main Character don't need weapons or armor, (maybe a light leather for Jan, if I can find one that doesn't hinder his spellcasting). Thus I can give stuff to Viconia, so it's a case of "why not?".

Third: Haer'Dalis gets mage spells? (Like I said, I'm used to 3rd Ed., where Bards get their own spell list). Is it the full set just at a slower pace or does he miss out on certain spells?

Fourth: About druids. While I suppose it's an option, I generally have a poor perception of druids. They can't heal as well as clerics or bombard as well as mages. Insect Plague and so on sounds interesting, having a second high level mage has it's perks, (Jan and HD only get stunted spell lists). I still like the image of two gate spells opening up on the enemy at the same time. Whats the perception out here: Is having a druid preferable to having a high-spell level mage? (I don't feel so, but then again, I'm the one who hasn't played this game in years.)[/QUOTE]

Definatley make Viconia a Tank, she has amazing potential as a front-liner.

Yeah, Haer' Dalis gets mage spells, but only up to lvl 6 spells. I'm not sure exactly how many he gets, consult the charts portion of the manual.

Your party has lots of spell power, but little Tanks. So I say pick up either Jaheira or (more preferably) Cernd. Jaheira can be made into a Tank if you give her Scimitars/Clubs with a good Shield. She also has Insect Plague, the ultimate mage disruptor if they fail the save. With Cernd, he starts out fairly weak, but at level 13 he gets Shapeshift Greater Werewolf which is insanely powerful. He also has a large selection of spells including Insect plague, though you have to be in Human form to cast them. I say, replace Haer' Dalis with Cernd, and later Cernd with Sarevok.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:16 pm

I'll think on it. (Werewolves are inherently cool,). Meh, why not. I get even more high level casters. (High level druid, High Level Cleric, and two High Level mages.) Plus I probably do need the second dedicated tank.

The only catch is, why in the world does nearly everyone on this board seem to loathe Cernd?

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:22 pm

Probably because he has to Shapeshift into Normal Form to cast his spells. And most people that pick him up in Trademeet find him weak because, well, he is until lvl 13. Then he really starts to kick some a**.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:48 pm

Thats it?

I was expecting something along the lines of him murdering Imoen or something. Well, so be it. I like the idea of a werewolf, and I need the tank, so he's hired. I expect that I should get to level 13 before too long.

Well, it looks like I'm set. Last Role Call:

PC: Male Elf Sorceror
Korgan
Edwin
Cernd
Viconia
Jan Jansen

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:25 pm

Glad to see that you've finally decided, it looks like a good party. I don't know where you got the idea of Cernd killing Imoen. They only ever have 1 conversation and Immy asks Cernd if one morning he just woke up and wanted to hug a tree

.

NeoTiamat · Post by **NeoTiamat** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:08 pm

I was being sarcastic, but anyway.

Just exited the Dungeon of Irenicus. I forgot how funny Minsc is... it'll be a shame to have to send him and Jaheira on their way. I even like Yoshimo. Still, it is for the greater good.

I'm going head over the Coronet to grab Korgan, then off to the Gov't District to get V and Jan. Then I'll need to start quests to get the Druid and Thayvian, but I'll probably grab Wolfman first, since his is a combat free start. Forward, March!

Berethor · Post by **Berethor** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:15 pm

[QUOTE=NeoTiamat]I was being sarcastic, but anyway.

Just exited the Dungeon of Irenicus. I forgot how funny Minsc is... it'll be a shame to have to send him and Jaheira on their way. I even like Yoshimo. Still, it is for the greater good.[/QUOTE]

Don't you mean Greater Evil

?. If you have TOB installed, save up at least 14,000 and but Jan the Darkfire Crossbow from the Vigil knights and he won't suck at fighting(as bad anyways). Get the Flail of Ages eary for Viconia. Get some sort of staff for Edwin, maybe Martial Staff, while you get the staff from your stronghold.