"Any spare change?" (minimal spam please)

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:58 pm

[QUOTE=frogus23]If they spend their money on drugs, who gives a ****, so do I.[/QUOTE]
LOL

I like to cut out the middleman, so I just give drugs and booze to the homeless instead of cash.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:10 pm

jopperm2 wrote:
Luis]I also have two families that my family help. One of them is very poor wrote: I commend you.. I wish everyone was like this, then I wouldn't have to pay 6% sales tax.. *grumble*
I dearly hope the irony in the above post is intended.

giles337 · Post by **giles337** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:20 pm

I find an easy way is to donate to charities whose work helps the homeless. That was I know my money is being used in genuine ways. I do however give food whenever i can, although in the uk substance abuse isn't such a huge problem.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:22 pm

I am serious about commending him.. But obviously very little of my state sales tax goes to relief in South America..

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:32 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]I am serious about commending him.. But obviously very little of my state sales tax goes to relief in South America..

[/QUOTE]
You said that if more people were like him, you wouldn't have to pay 6% in sales tax. This reeks of hypocrisy; you condone his selflessness and yet hold on to your measly 6% sales tax. Or am I reading your reply the wrong way? Because what I read said: 'I commend you giving money to the poor so I don't have to'

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:36 pm

Did you read the rest of the thread?

I do give money to the poor.. Not often, I'm not too well off myself..
But I don't support any form of government enforced compulsory charity.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:47 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]I do give money to the poor.. Not often, I'm not too well off myself..
But I don't support any form of government enforced compulsory charity.[/QUOTE]

Ah, okay. That makes more sense then.

I'd gotten the wrong impression when I first skimmed through the thread. Should I take it then thay revenue generated through the sales tax goes to the poor, or were you just using a figure of speech?

And what exactly do you mean by 'government enforced compulsory charity' ? Are programs helping people to find jobs, often including retraining a part of it?

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:54 pm

Actually, I don't think much of my sales tax goes to the poor, I just hate taxes and was being sarcastic..

And by 'government enforced compulsory charity' I mean the US's overly abused welfare system..

I have no problem with limited unemployment benefits and retraining etc. as long as it is cost effective and fiscally responsible..

I just hate the fact that hard-working people have to pay because a large amount of people can't keep their legs closed.

I do feel bad for the kids though, but I hate the parents.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:51 pm

I made up my mind quite a while ago that if I give some money to a person who asks me for some, from the moment that money leaves my hand into theirs, it never existed in my wallet. It's a rare thing for me to do these days. I can criticize what they might do with that cash...but then someone can in turn criticize what I do with my own money. I know need exists out there, and it's a bit more complicated than what meets the eye in most cases.

Over the years, it's become more difficult to qualify for government assistance. Since I work for a state agency that regulates some public programs, I've gotten an insider view of the process, and the sheer volume my co-workers deal with on a daily basis. I thought some of the training I underwent in the military was stressful...but the job they do every day is much more stressful psychologically. Makes me miss the gas chamber and the live-grenade training course.

Corporations here might be reporting higher profits, but this is no indicator of the state of the economy in the US. While outsourcing has increased the coffers of manufacturers here stateside, the result has been layoffs and closures in-country...all in the name of "streamlining." Outsourcing is not limited to manufacturing work any more, either...administrative and technical work is being farmed out overseas as well. Obviously, there are benefits for the companies who do it. This part is not theoretical. What's theoretical, and not proven to actually be fact, is the benefit it is supposed to have for all of America. So far, I see IT professionals and manufacturing workers desperate for work, in increasing numbers in virtually every major city. That isn't theoretical, it's a fact.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:13 pm

It is a little harder to get benefits these days but trust me the system is crap, one of my best friends was a social workin in Chicago and he quit because he was tired of giving money to scumbags.. I'll have to get some stories from him for this thread..
My mother in law is considered 100% disabled.. According to her doctor she is supposed to wear a back-brace all day and walk with a cane, she's not allowed to stand for more than 30 minutes,drive, or lift more than 10 lbs.. In reality?
I have never seen her wear the brace, no cane, she drives, rides motorcycles, lifts motorcycle wheels at her boyfriend's motorcycle shop and my 21lb daughter at my house..
I have had people point at my daughter and say "what you need is a few more of those and you can live off the government for a few years."
I hate that. I wanna run people like that over in the street.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:53 pm

I'd like to make a comment, just because while I'm not homeless, and I don't beg for things, I DO happen to be on disability. For the most part, I seem healthy, coherant and capable of doing just about anything I want, but just in everything else, appearances can and are decieving. I've made many friends who happen to have mental illness, and frankly, the situation with the care of such people is horrible. It causes more problems than it creates. I was admitted for the fact I hadn't slept in two months, outside of roughly 20 hours of sleep scattered through about 55 days or so. For anyone the least bit knowledgable of the effects that has on someone, sleep deprivation is a leading cause of many of the more serious mental health problems.

Myself, my memory was destroyed, whether from misuse of numerous prescription drugs I was forced, by the state to take while in the hospital. I was deemed all sorts of things while dealing with the sleep deprivation. What happened to me isn't really at all important to the issue, but the results, loss of memory, and destroying it so I can't recall things, old or form new ones for a large amount of the time; completely altering my process of thinking, my metabolism being completely altered, etc. I have been tested years ago, and was once one of the smartest kids in my school, now I barely REMEMBER school. Granted, memories fade, you forget some of what you learned but I had to go through and relearn the process of how to simply process what I read and all. I'm on disability from being drugged when it was unneccessary, whether the effects I'm facing are from not sleeping for so long, the drugs themselves, or a combination its all very real. I can still speak, walk, work and such, but I must go through all over again how to relearn what was lost before I can proceed to my goals for college. On top of this, as my memory is downright horrible now, simple tasks are sometimes beyond me. I may learn one thing one week at a job, and completely forget the next. Jobs are sometimes too much to deal with. I've held down a few for periods of time, but when it comes down to it, it ends up simply being a matter of time before the memory goes away, and because it stops working, I cannot just be trained again, as no matter how many times you show me something, it won't stick. I don't seem disabled, I can be brilliant and coherent and if shown to a doctor now, he'd say I'm fine. It's happened before, but the fact is, thats only part of the time, another part, everything slips away.

I have friends who attempt to work, who are schitzophrenic. They can do just fine, but in a sitaution where they end up hallucinating, working is beyond them. Reality for them is simply and utterly different from everyone else. This cannot be helped. Drugging certain people fails in situations like that. Granted it helps some, but some isn't all. These people don't receive adequite attention or the help they need and suffer for it. Luckily, I got onto disability, my family cannot afford to support me, and while for short periods of time, I could myself. I do my best to do so when I can, I don't like being a drain on society. But when I can't, I'd be fired, starve and die.

I end up just trying to do my best, especially to help others in situations like mine. Most don't understand how things work, and I've been through the system and I can help them keep themselves from falling apart, and dealing with how to seek help for themselves. Proper help, not some pill-pushing doctor who doesn't truly undertake to understand a problem.

I've seen those who sit on the side of the road with nowhere to go, and nothing to support themselves with. I always have to wonder, why is it these people are like this. There ARE systems out there for those like me who have a reason they cannot function and support themselves. Why are they there? A man or women who is physically incapable of walking is given aid to see they're taken care for right? Why do so many people simply have no way to support themselves. Laziness? The economy? Addictions? Serious Problems? Probably some of all of these. I was on my own for a while, working and paying my own bills, and a lady kept going through the trash at the appartment complex looking for bottles. I asked her why, she said she hated working. Not unable to, not couldn't find a job, just didn't want to. I simply felt no pity for her, she chose that life she leads. Then again, others I've seen offered to do a full days work simply for lunch to my aunt. These people were in need of a job. Capable of working one, but unable to find one, and downright willing to work at whatever they could find.

There are many problems leading to the cause of the homeless out there who are forced to rely on others in need. I pay cheap rent with a friend, help out there and go about my life, trying to put it together. In my situation, sometimes thats easy, sometimes it seems impossible. I'm sure there has to be many others in the same boat I am, whether or not they recieve aid as I do.

I don't know, I just felt compelled to share my own story since so many people had their own opinions on it but chances are, no one they were discussing would be in a position to speak here.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:08 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]For anyone the least bit knowledgable of the effects that has on someone, sleep deprivation is a leading cause of many of the more serious mental health problems.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Alas, good sleeping was one of the things I used to need more when I left my depression causes behind and started improving. I remember barely sleeping and having nighmares, one after the other, and those nightmares were related to my job, my childhood, my fiancée... I remember what is like to get up from bed in the morning and, along with dispair, fear to face another day cause you have no strenght left on your body.

Thats why I help, too. But I keep my opinion of no-finnancial aid, only food and clothing aid.

@Chanak, you helping homeless people remembers me of what I did on second grade, when a friend of mine has been thrown out home by his mother. He lived at my house for six months. Then, one year later, he entered the house and threatened my mother for money. Guess he was not my friend aye? And thats why I dont help strangers at my house. Keep at the gate, keep outside.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:57 pm

@ Magrus
I do agree that some people need disability and I don't deny then that, but I have seen way more frauds than legitimate ones.. I hope I didn't offend you, I really am onldy mad at abusers.. I think you understand that though. I'm sure legitimate people don't care for the abusers either..

@Luis
You gotta be careful with that stuff.. Never trust someone farther than you can throw them.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:04 pm

It takes a lot to offend me, so none taken.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:41 pm

@Magrus: I know all about having a debilitating mental illness, since I have one myself. Sometimes my mental disorder can make me a tireless workaholic, and other times I can't cope with my boss. Fortunately, I benefit greatly from medication (I take just one, an anti-depressant). It takes the edge off those times I can't cope with anything, and makes them much easier to handle.

Technically speaking, I could go through the paperwork maze and get on 100% disability with no problems, save for the enormous length of time that process takes.

However, with my medication I'm stable enough to deal with the work environment, so I have no desire to do it.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:57 am

I've got friends who after being treated for whatever it is they have are fine, and can go on with their life which I find to be great to hear that people have found something that works for them. After going through what I've gone through, it's bothered me that there ARE systems in place, but often times half of them seem to cause more problems for a good number of people they are meant to help. I've intended on attempting to do something about it, but then I'm not even capable of supporting myself at all times which makes that effort highly difficult.

I do remember, I went down to dallas to see family and there was someone begging for change. No one helped the guy, my step-brother asked him what he needed and what for and ended up handing him a good deal of money (at least $35). I've no clue what he did with it, neither does my brother. I've never been in a situation in the past few years that I've been an adult where I've come across anyone truly in need of assistance simply on the street aside from that lady at my appartment. There are those who have come through where I've worked who obvious needed help, which I've helped. One lady needed cash to put gas in her car one day to get to work, which considering gas prices here lately, I cannot say I blame her for that. If your on a budget and the gas prices go up suddenly your downright screwed if you don't get paid weekly to adjust to that. I handed her two dollars, just enough to get TO work to get her paycheck and saw her put it in her car. Something like that, that sort of made my day being able to help a person out like that. A co-worker at the time however had ended up paying for some ladies food a few times, and she never paid him back for it after promising to do so upon finding work. He tried helping someone, and she used him. I helped someone and I saw it go to good use. It's sort of hit or miss who it is your going to run into I guess.

frogus23 · Post by **frogus23** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:58 am

I absolutely agree with Magrus - benefit fraud is a dodgy thing to make blanket allegations about. It is not at all easy to fake a mental illness, and it seems much more likely that the people you have seen who receive benefits are not faking it, they are probably drugged to normality (like Chanak). Besides, even full recovery from a mental illness does not mean benefits are unneeded.

Have you ever tried getting a skilled job with 'a history of schyzophrenic outbursts' on your CV?

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:46 am

Disability in the US is crazy, my dad got denied disability when he had cancer, couldn't walk, could barely see, and was hallucinating about 75% of the time from Morphine.. Then again, I work with a lady with one leg amputated and wh has seizures at work every few months.. My ex-boss has the same back problem that my mother-in-law has and gets no benefits at all..

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:51 am

Just like I said, the system is flawed. A variety of them are flawed in the country here. Not only that, but right around where I live, dozens of big plants and factories that basically support a few towns each for jobs are shutting down, unemployment will skyrocket and that fuels the situation with the homeless and people looking for handouts within the next year or so. There are people stuck with degrees that do them no good because they're stuck bagging groceries to support their kids as thats the only job available short of moving out of the area. I'd be pissed dumping all that time and effort into getting a masters and losing a great job just because the economy is falling apart and having nowhere to find another job anymore within 100 miles of me.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:34 pm

[QUOTE=dragon wench] Hey man, work is a bourgeois concept, oh by the way, you got any spare change?

I strongly support a state-sponsored social safety net, I feel that both the state and corporations should be responible for helping people to get off the ground so that they can become self-sufficient, I think that any and all post-secondary education and/or job/career training should be free, I believe that every nation in the world should have a state-run, socialised medicare system...
But I get really annoyed by people who feel the need to insult you because you actually want to earn a living, and then they have the gall to ask for handouts....[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with DW's political views here, but I am really puzzled about the type of beggar who is described here: I give change to almost anybody who asks for it, except in countries where children may be used as "workers" to collect money for adults as a business, in those cases I buy food and give the kids instead, but I have never encountered this kind of attitude ever.

[quote="Jopperm2]
You hardly ever see "]

Where do you live? In the industrial world, nature householding does not work as it may do in agricultural or native cultures, the economy and society is money based, you must have money to rent a flat, to buy clothes, to buy hygiene articles, medicine, and other essentials. You cannot go to the landlord or to the hospital and pay in potatoes and sheep.

EDIT: Just checked your profile and saw you are living in Florida...now, I have only spent a few weeks or so in Florida, but I didn't see any signs of nature householding there, so how do you mean people are lazy if they don't want to work for food? Or was your comment directed to other parts of the world?

[quote="Jopperm2] But what you have to realize is that drugs are illegal and for good reason.. Ever notice that most of the trash on this planet does them? And for those that favor legalization I say this"]

What you have to do appears to be to learn more about the sociopsychological as well as neurophysical factors that determine drug abuse. You seem totally ignorant of the fact that a very large part, perhaps the majority, or drug abusers, abuse drugs as self-medication of underlying illness. This was discussed at lenght at the lastest World Conference of Psychiatry as well as the latest International Collegium of Neuropharmacology. If you need some scientific studies of this topic, I can post abstracts and links.

People do not abuse drugs because they are "bums", the become increasingly bum-like because they abuse drugs.

[quote="Jopperm2]Mental illness is a difficult one.. Some of them are really sick"]

How is mental illness a "difficult one"? It may appear difficult if you are not a psychiatrist, but cancer is also difficult if you are not an oncologist. What do you mean by "really sick" and "got it from too much drugs"?

Just like I am grateful medical science has moved forward and re-defined "witch" and "blessed" as "Tourette's syndrome" or "Mesotemporal epilepsia", I am grateful that labels like "stupid" and "crazy" today may be replaced with "ADHD", "Autism", "Down's syndrome" or "Schizophrenia". You seem to think that you are quite knowledgeble in this are since you state with lot of certaintly that some mental illness is "real" whereas other you get from drugs, and "stupid" and "crazy" differ from "real problems". I would very much like you to elaborate on this. According to you, what criteria are valid for diagnosis of "real" mental (what I call neuropsychiatric) illness? What are examples of non-real mental illness, and why is it not real?

Please explain.