Nationalism, patriotism and the concept of the national state

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:08 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
After reading through these posts I feel both pride and sorrow and perhaps its wrong to say but I feel sorry for CE. I feel sorry for CE not having the same feelings that I share with Chanak. Pride, Love, Home.

LOL Random, you certainly don't need to feel sorry for me

What a person feels proud about and not, is ultimately a question of how a person identify him/herself, just like CM says above. To me, it would feel futile and superficial to identify myself as belonging to a certain nation or having a certain citizenship, since none of this has anything to do with my personality, my choices, my will or my acts. It's just a lucky coincidence, just as it is a lucky coincidence that I was born with my DNA proteins sequenced in a way that made me look pretty, or made me talented, or smart. As I stated above, I think it is absurd to proud for things you have done nothing to deserve. Like I said, it would be like winning the lottery and then be proud of being rich.

Besides, it's also a question of what you value in life. "Pride" and "Home" are not concepts that mean a lot to me. I am very happy and satisfied with myself as a person, with my life and with my achievements. Pride is not of importance. The idea of "home" is not so important to me and also, it is not tied to one particular geographical spot on this planet. When you travel a lot, I think you come to realise that human nature is the same regardless of nationality.

Perhaps it is because I am untravled I will admit... It just makes me feel sorry for CE to not be proud of bieng where she is from, it is ok to be Proud for those who hold the same title. My Last name makes me proud, for those before me who held it show me great courage and great wisdom. The title American also flows in my eyes and those before me shared the same title and for that alone I am proud.

If I understand you correctly, part of what you are proud of is related to what other people have done, ie your ancestors and other people who share your citizenship? I am not sure I understand how one can be proud of things that not oneself, but other's have done? If I were proud of what other people did, I would feel like taking the honour for other people's acts, which is my eyes would be undeserved. But again, I suppose you have made your ancestors and your fellow citizens part of your identity, and it is important to you to identify yourself as having a certain nationality, whereas for me, there are other types variables that are of importance for my identity.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:18 pm

@CE

It's about being a part of something. I am an American Citizen, I am a Basen. Those two things are facts.

I pay my taxes and do my best to keep my community alive and well, I vote for the right things and try my best to open the minds of those who see close mindedly?(is that a word at all?). That is my contribution to America (I tried to enlist but asthma got me rejected). That makes me american. That makes me a part of something greater than just me it makes me a part of one of the greatest things ever, The United States of America. A country founded on the idea of freedom (Sure we can debate current status of such government) but the basic ideal of our country... welcome all outsiders, provide help and sustenance for those who need it. Provide protection for those who cannot defend, provide a better way of life. There is areason why so many people come to America, why the run here. Its because being American means something.

In the times of Today we live in being American is a questioned thing because people are forgetting the basic Idea of being american and assigning being American with being patriotic and having nationalist ideal's.

My Grandfather was in the Navy and fought the Japanese, My uncles and my father are all succesful entrapenuers(sp?) who made it on thier own without college. I've lived a very comfortable life. My Brother currently fights for our nation in the UNited states Airforce and my Mother is just an Amazing woman with the strength to handle any problem. I am proud of them and proud to share the name, I am proud to do my best to do the name justice.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of something you didnt Start. You see those who say "Im proud of America cause we are strong or can kick ass or got more money" are not the same as those who say "I am proud of those who stood before me as i will be proud of my children"

America is an Amazing place that I love and when I say that I feel sorry for you CE it is because of my love for my country. Perhaps like a love to a dog some people can not understand it...

I love America and am DAMN proud to be an American.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:43 pm

Originally posted by Voo
This is a season of patriotism, but also of
something that is easily mistaken for patriotism;
namely, nationalism. The difference is vital.

G.K. Chesterton once observed that Rudyard
Kipling, the great poet of British imperialism,
suffered from a "lack of patriotism." He explained:
"He admires England, but he does not love her; for
we admire things with reasons, but love them
without reasons. He admires England because she is
strong, not because she is English."

In the same way, many Americans admire America
for being strong, not for being American. For them
America has to be "the greatest country on earth"
in order to be worthy of their devotion. If it were
only the 2nd-greatest, or the 19th-greatest, or,
heaven forbid, "a 3rd-rate power," it would be
virtually worthless...

Wow. I could write a paper on this! I’ll try to order my thoughts here, but there is a lot to be said …

First, I disagree with G.K. Chesterton when he says: “…we admire things with reasons, but love them without reasons.” I think we need reasons to either admire something or love it, and I can’t even comprehend of someone loving something for no reason.

I would even say that love requires the deeper understanding (reason).

I furthermore disagree with the twist that the author then puts on Chesterton’s idea: “In the same way, many Americans admire America for being strong, not for being American. For them America has to be ‘the greatest country on earth’ in order to be worthy of their devotion. If it were only the 2nd-greatest, or the 19th-greatest, or, heaven forbid, ‘a 3rd-rate power,’ it would be virtually worthless. This is nationalism, not patriotism.”

So, he indicates that because Americans admire America for being “strong,” they are nationalistic; and the flip side is simply admiring America for being America, which the author regards as a benign sort of patriotism. I am just the opposite. My view is that if one simply admires/loves a nation because it is theirs, it is they who are the nationalists. They are the ones who have no reason for the feelings that move them – and emotion detached from reason is the most dangerous form of nationalism I can think of. Just as CE said (and I agree): there is no reason whatsoever to love your place of birth simply because you were born there. A person who feels some causeless love for his place of birth can be manipulated by any ideologue who comes along and says: “follow me, I stand for [nation x].”

So then flipping back to what the author regards as “nationalism:” nationalism is loving a nation because it is “strong.” No. Loving a nation because it is “strong” is stupid – it is not necessarily nationalistic. At least someone who says they love America for her strength has a reason for the admiration they feel. It isn’t a good reason; Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and barbarian Germany were all “strong” in their way, but I can’t regard any of them as “admirable,” and I would hope no one else would either.

But I will say that I very much admire the US. I admire her for the freedom she affords her citizens, her (somewhat) capitalistic economy, her (mostly) tolerant and open society. Those are what make her strong, and so I admire her strength, also, as a consequence (mainly) of her freedom. This is not mindless nationalism. It is recognition of virtue. Millions of people have recognized that virtue, and come to this nation to be a part of her strength. And that, too, is admirable.

(I’m looking over the rest of the above article to see if any other points are worth addressing, but it appears not. The author foolishly sets up a “nationalistic” straw man who is ignorant and warlike and suspicious of those who don’t toe the line, and then sets him against a “patriot” - that’s just silly hyperbole, IMO.)

So, on to CE’s original statement/question:

Originally posted by CE
In the Constitutional monarchy thread, I stated I am against the very concept of the national state. I view the national state as an outdated idea, unsuitable for modern society. IMO national borders only hamper growth, development and equality seen in a global perspective. They provide excellent shelter for us living within a rich national state, but the also effecivly keep out less rich people with less opportunities, and they maintain unequal distribution of resources. Trade tariffs, borders closed to refugees as well as work immigration are all factors that IMO maintain unequality.

And, connected to those opinions of mine, are also the issue of nationalism or patriotism. I stated in the other thread that I find the idea of national pride absurd. Why? Because it is not an achivement we have made, it is a mere coincidence. I cannot understand how anyone could be pride of where they were born? It is not a choice and we have done nothing do deserve it, so why be proud? I'm never proud of things I haven't done anything to deserve, or haven't worked hard to achieve. To me, it's like being proud of winning at a lottery.

Thoughts, opinons?

I think my above reply answers your main question: I agree that a blind love for the place you were born is foolish.

I disagree mightily with the idea that borders (nation states) are an “outdated” idea. I understand your point, and to some extent I agree. I believe in 100% free trade and open borders. And if I and a bunch of like-minded persons were to blast off in a spaceship and settle on Alpha Centuari, I don’t think we would need borders or nation states. But that is not the world we live in. We live in a world where people are still fighting one another simply because they are from different tribes or of different religions. In such a world, I am very much aware that I need and want an America (or any reasonably free and rational place) where I can be secure from such reckless and self-destructive ideologies. I do not view this as nationalism (for the reasons stated above).

Curdis’ turn (off-topic though it may be).

Originally posted by Curdis
We have a global community here on GB. What can we do? 2012 isn't far off. Oil reserves are widely stated as gone by 2050. We need to do something effective, but what? And to the topic, can we afford to do it peicemeal or by nation? Kyoto anyone?

Bah (to use a fableism). They’ve been predicting oil depletion ever since I was a little shaver. Shoulda run out years ago. It’ll run out eventually, of course. No doubt – probably about the time me and like-minded persons are blasting off to Alpha Centuari!

. But unless you rein in the technology and innovation of a nation (Ralph Nader, anyone?), there will always be new technologies. If not, then we go back to the horse and buggy. So what? Should we just let the oil sit in the ground and be of no use whatsoever? Nonsense.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:15 am

one question concerning this topic- what about schools, trade, currency, infrastructure, etc. so, there are no country borders, who will take care of these things? do we go back to a city-state concept?

@Scytze - the only change that will really effect the world, has to start with people. with the internet and thousands of forums and such, everyone who cares should take the time to find those companies that do that little extra step. when you buy products, are you conscious of how much recycled content it has? do you buy meats and dairy from small farms who are more conscious about waste than the super commercial farms? do you ride a bike to work every day? i love my sister to death, but it's hard to take serious someone who screams that there should be more regulations against companies and no new drilling for oil, but yet she owns two cars, one of which is a full-size SUV, uses disposable diapers, etc.

if everyone who claims to care so much about the environment put their money where their mouth is and paid for the products that are a little more environmentally friendly, there will be a change.

nael · Post by **nael** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:16 am

and one more thing- i don't see anythign wrong with pride. everyone knows that i would fight to the death for my Texas.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:23 am

Originally posted by Lazarus
Curdis’ turn (off-topic though it may be).

Bah (to use a fableism). They’ve been predicting oil depletion ever since I was a little shaver. Shoulda run out years ago. It’ll run out eventually, of course. No doubt – probably about the time me and like-minded persons are blasting off to Alpha Centuari! . But unless you rein in the technology and innovation of a nation (Ralph Nader, anyone?), there will always be new technologies. If not, then we go back to the horse and buggy. So what? Should we just let the oil sit in the ground and be of no use whatsoever? Nonsense.

My post may seem off topic but how can we solve a global problem, be it polution, terrorism, AIDS, whatever, if there are nations which can opt out? The loss of fisheries internationally, the removal of irreplaced trees, oil is only one limited resource which we need to manage. How can we manage any of it globally if their are 'rogue states'?

I'm not a ludite, nor a puritan

. I am probably using diesel much more irresponsibly than you because of my lifestyle choices. Mea culpa too. It is hard to accept that my choices may be restricted by another nation/ubernation but maybe that is where we need to go. Is this on topic enough?

I heartily disagree with you regarding sitting back and thinking of something else. If we can't manage this planet we really shouldn't be thinking of going to despoil another. It would be nice to think that should we go to another planet we would have learnt a lesson or two. I personally have no faith in this happening what-so-ever. - Curdis !

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:03 pm

Bah, patriotism is over-rated and easily misused.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:04 pm

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.
George Bernard Shaw

And that quite sums it up IMO

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:27 am

@ nael, it is true that the changing of the world has to begin with a person itself. The problem only, is that the common thought is: “if he doesn’t do it, why should I?”

Now, I’m not saying I think the same way. I separate garbage, buy rechargeable batteries, go to college with public transport instead of a car, etc. But to go as far as to check which company produces the lesser amount of waste, no, not really.

It has to start somewhere, but if someone takes a leading role or brings the problems in the open, so it gets more attention, people will follow. Companies produce more waste then a person itself, and that’s why they go after the big ones, instead of the individuals.

For change, there has to happen something first, and bringing the problems to the people themselves, confronting them with it, is a step.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:11 am

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.
George Bernard Shaw

I think thats crap IMO. Patriotism is believing in something greater than your own self worth. Its loving your neighboors and accepting them as brothers because of your shared nationality. If there was no Patriotism there would be no great nations because no one would care. I mean the Space race? America in General? I just got to work so Im short on stuff to follow this with but my point is without Patriotism nations would be giant apathetic laborers. IMO.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:19 pm

Well, you can put it that way, but ure just giving a different meaning to the word then I would. Loving your neighbours and accepting them as brothers can also be called friendship, loyalty or companionship.

And without patriotism there would be no great countries? Does that mean people dont fight for the country itself (that little place for there own), for there life's, believes, perhaps even bloodthurst or because of friends and family, but only because of patriotism? Patriotism isn’t only needed to form a great country. Believe in each other and what you stand for is. Or perhaps a lifethreatning situation.

For example: If I would be send to a country to defend it from another invading country, I wouldn’t feel patriotic. I would fight for my life, friends and the people I would strat to know there. Or fight for the freedom they should have.
On the other hand, if my own country would be attacked, I would probably feel patriotic. Simply because I was born and raised there, and thus have a certain connection with it. Defend it because it is my country.... so to say.

But like I said: it depends on the meaning you give to the word "patriotism".

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:08 pm

pa·tri·ot·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr--tzm)
n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

Patriotism

\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.

Patriotism

n : love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it

I am confused by your statement. If your country sent you to war for another country, most likely because you either share views or your country pity's them or has an alliance whatever the reason, you would not feel patriotic because your fighting for your country?

I mean sure if you join the french foriegn legion you might not have the same patriotic sense but I tell you this Patriotism includes friendship, Loyalty and companionship. I have to run cause work calls but your statement confuses me a bit. You claim that to be patrotic means only when you fight on your own soil because your born there?

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:07 am

This is kind of hard to explain. You see, patriotism means, according to our Dutch dictionary: vaderlandsliefde.

I don’t have an exact other word for it then patriotism, so I will literally translate it:

vader / lands / liefde= fatherland love, love and loyalty to one's country where he or she was born in.

As you say, its love, devotion, etc. for a country. But I don’t see it as a country (like your example of joining the French foreign legion), I see it as the country you were born in.

I will give a different example:
Let’s say Spain invades France and occupies the southern of France. I wouldn’t feel patriotic because they "stole" land. I would go because, as you say, you either share views or your country pity's them or has an alliance whatever the reason.

On the other hand, if Spain invaded the Netherlands (where I live), and they would occupy certain provinces, I would desperately try to get it back. It belongs to our country; my ancestors lived here, build it up and made it into a flourishing place. I wouldn’t have the same feeling with France, for the sole reason that I was not born there and thus don’t have a certain connection with the country.

Now, George Bernard Shaw said:
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

I might not agree with the statement that it is superior to all other countries. But I believe patriotism is the love for a country because you were born in it.

I’m sorry if I haven’t explained myself correct here.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:45 am

No needs for apology friend it just appeared as if you believed mr shaw's statement to the letter since you posted it by itself. I figured that was your stance, you appear to have patriotic senses which I believe are sincere and I do not discredit. I guess our only disagreement is on the level of what is patriotism for instance my friend Alikhan (god i probably spelled that wrong) was born in (I think Pakistan or Iran not sure) but is a Huge American patriot... big time. What about all these foriegners that flee to my country and fight to have the same title as me, American. Their is pride in that for them, there is Patriotism.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:31 am

Originally posted by RandomThug
I guess our only disagreement is on the level of what is patriotism for instance my friend Alikhan (god i probably spelled that wrong) was born in (I think Pakistan or Iran not sure) but is a Huge American patriot... big time.

That pretty much sums it up.

I guess it depends on the meaning you give to the word patriotism, the experiences one had with it in life, etc.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:34 am

What about all these foriegners that flee to my country and fight to have the same title as me, American. Their is pride in that for them, there is Patriotism.

By this logic, if the US went into a terrible job slump and the only way you could support yourself was to go work in the UK, you would be going there because of patriotism. Similarly, all those Hispanic immigrants who are sneaking north of the border are doing so--not for jobs, not for money, but for patriotism.

It doesn't make sense. People emigrate for specific, down-to-earth reasons, not high-flown rhetoric. UN studies have shown that when people emigrate, it's almost always for one of two reasons: 1) political persecution, or 2) economic advantage. While they may feel gratitude to whatever nation takes them in, they don't typically "fight to become X," where X equals their new nation. If anything, they cling tenaciously to the hope of return, as well as their languages, customs, culture, and communities.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:24 pm

@Fable it is not the reason why the flee, if that is the point it appears I am making that is not my intention.

You are right I have been in an enviroment surronded by people who struggle daily to save enough money to return home and live a nicer lifestyle in a place they are patriotic to a place they call home, Mexico. I have worked with illegal immigrants when working in construction and when they worked at a factory I worked at. Now both cases you are right, they came for money and or politcal freedom or whatnot and hopefully awaited return home.

What about those other immigrants though? What about the German people moving to america, the russians, the English, the irish, the iranian, the cubans the etc. etc. You can not make the clear and cut statement that these people do not just yearn for America because of the dollar but because of the idea of what America can do for them. And when they arrive here and if they are succesful and raise a nice family are they not patriotic then?

You speak of immigrants that do not come with the intentions of being American but with the intentions of benifiting from the lifestyle we live in (this is opinion btw). I speak of Immigrants who have left home for whatever reasons but have come here for the simple reason that they believe in America and that America is a great place for them and thier children.

I see patriots when I see those men slaving over ditches trying to become American citizens, because they wish to pay taxes to provide for thier children to do the best they can. Just like me. Those who wish to only make money here while thier country is in upheavel.. wait till its safe to go home. Those who only come here to make more cash and save up then run back home to live lucious lifestyles, no not Patriotic.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:44 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
What about those other immigrants though? What about the German people moving to america, the russians, the English, the irish, the iranian, the cubans the etc. etc. You can not make the clear and cut statement that these people do not just yearn for America because of the dollar but because of the idea of what America can do for them. And when they arrive here and if they are succesful and raise a nice family are they not patriotic then?

I don't see the two as necessarily linked, at all. It seems to me that patriotism has to be taught at an early age, squeezed into the heads of people who otherwise wouldn't take seriously the artificial construct of nationality. After the fall of Rome and before the rise of national governments in the 13th-14th centuries ACE, for example, there was *no* nationalism. People lived in the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne, but they didn't have any nationalist loyalties--nobody tried to push it into them. It was only during the rise of commoner-used weaponry in Europe, with the longbow and the pike, that the central governments realized it was to their advantage to convince people they weren't from small communities, but part of a mythic country with individual attributes. Fight for England, and kill the French. Fight for the French, and kill the English. But on their own...? No, people weren't patriotic without careful teaching.

You speak of immigrants that do not come with the intentions of being American but with the intentions of benifiting from the lifestyle we live in (this is opinion btw). I speak of Immigrants who have left home for whatever reasons but have come here for the simple reason that they believe in America and that America is a great place for them and thier children.

And as I said, there's hardly anybody who fits in that category--no one I know, and nobody in the various UN studies done about emigration. People go to the US, the UK, Argentina, Australia, France, whatever, because of 1) economic deprivation, or 2) political persecution. They don't have the luxury of wealth to choose to go to whatever they my believe is the most free nation around. They choose the country that combines attributes of being 1) the nearest, 2) the one where they have a community at hand with their old country values, and/or 3) one which is going to provide the greatest likelihood of financial reward. Again, this doesn't make people wave flags. Most of those migrants in fact want to go back when the home situation changes: more than 80%, according to one poll.

I see patriots when I see those men slaving over ditches trying to become American citizens, because they wish to pay taxes to provide for thier children to do the best they can.

No offense meant, but where are you getting this hyper-romantic rhetoric from? Was it taught to you in school, or at home, or from a specific book? No one "slaves in ditches" to "become an American citizen." In fact, most migrants (more than 60%) who come to the US to hear a wage do so illegally. The ones that intend to settle down may eventually take up citizenship, but they aren't slaving in any ditch--they're usually white-collar workers, and they're simply working to make more money or avoid political tensions back home. When the home situation changes, many of them will move back--as witness the fall of Communism, which saw a great exodus of what were called "Brezhnev exiles" from the US.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:01 pm

No offense meant, but where are you getting this hyper-romantic rhetoric from? Was it taught to you in school, or at home, or from a specific book? No one "slaves in ditches" to "become an American citizen." In fact, most migrants (more than 60%) who come to the US to hear a wage do so illegally. The ones that intend to settle down may eventually take up citizenship, but they aren't slaving in any ditch--they're usually white-collar workers, and they're simply working to make more money or avoid political tensions back home. When the home situation changes, many of them will move back--as witness the fall of Communism, which saw a great exodus of what were called "Brezhnev exiles" from the US.

Non taken and I was referring to specific events in my life, the people I've worked with. The men who worked for my father whom I watched as a little kid work for my dad digging ditches (trench's, holes whatever) for pouring foundations. I watched this one immigrant Oh god i forget his name right now and thats bad... hispanic fellow real nice guy actually works for the city of torrance right now. My dad helped him get his legitamcy because of how damn great a worker he was, the kid was amazing did so much work and was so humble. And is now a proud member of my society (I live in redondo/torrance)

Now fable you have a tendancy to go back and point out all these facts about rome and such and past experiances and why nationalism and patriotism exist etc. I am not talking about Nationalism I am talking about being proud of where your from (not born or where you lived most of your life) i am talking about Patriotism being proud of the flag that flys over your head because it represents the things you want best and the things you do your best to preserve.

Lets look at my Grandmother to be exact, Sicilian. Born raised and immigrated, DAMN proud patriotic American. My Irish friends all were either born or fathers born in Ireland and sure they fled for better reasons but the reason they came here was because of the prosperity it provided them and they became Patrotic.

I have personal experiances with foriegn born people who are now American citizens ( can not tell you how patrotic Illegals are because I do not consider them able to be so ) who are immensly patrotic. It is because of what my country offered them and that it did provide for them bearing they gave it thier all. I do not think that the #1 reason why people migrate is patrotism I do not believe it is even a main reason my argument (like I explained, I wish not to make that thepoint) was that people do look at Canada nad American and Europe and god "Hmm Maybe the US" not just because of location or cash but because of the fact they believe it will do better for them. And then when they become American citizens they will be proud of the place that helped them... perhaps your stats tell you different but my personal experiances show me that people like me those who are born here and raised here and spoiled here tend to be less patrotic than those who immigrated here because they know the true benifits of being American in comparison.

In 2002 11.5 Percent of the American Population was of Foriegn Born people. Blah I wanted a fact.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:48 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
Now fable you have a tendancy to go back and point out all these facts about rome and such and past experiances and why nationalism and patriotism exist etc. I am not talking about Nationalism I am talking about being proud of where your from (not born or where you lived most of your life) i am talking about Patriotism being proud of the flag that flys over your head because it represents the things you want best and the things you do your best to preserve.

Which is precisely the nationalist mystique promulgated by the Roman Empire, and later in the 13th century ACE by England and France. But between times, it wasn't there. In other words, the natural tendency for people is to think in smaller terms; they have to be educated by a strongly centralized government to believe in a specific nationalist myth, and to go out, fight, and die against another, negative nationalist myth that they've been taught.

I have personal experiances with foriegn born people who are now American citizens ( can not tell you how patrotic Illegals are because I do not consider them able to be so ) who are immensly patrotic. It is because of what my country offered them and that it did provide for them bearing they gave it thier all.

First generation European immigrants were once the standard in the US but are now atypical, and have been for some time--they represent less than 5% of the annual immigrant population to the US. South American, Asian and African immigrants present an entirely different profile.