Old Folks - No Spam

[C Elegans]

@Nippy: Your familily situation certainly improves the likeliness that you can take care of your grandparents when the one day might need it You also point out another problem in modern society - the span between generation. Previously, it was normal with less than 20 years or so between the generations, now, it's normal with close to 30 years. The average age for the first children has increased dramatically since the 1960's.

My grandparents are all dead expect for my paternal grandmother who is 90 and the least sympatic person in all of my family She lives in her own flat, and is still healthy, whereas the other three all died of different forms of cancer.

[Gwalchmai]

@Sleep:
I worked in an old folks home for 2½ years (as a cook) and I saw plenty of problems with it. Not the big problems that you hear about, like people being tied to their beds for days on end, but small, heart-rending problems. Nurses in a hurry wheeling wheelchairs way too fast down halls with their occupants’ faces a mask of fear, people being left alone in the dining room, unable to move themselves and having to pitifully call “help” over and over again. These are things I would never want anyone in my family subjected too. If possible, I would always opt for the best assisted-living facility, or if necessary I would shell out for the best nursing homes I could afford. The non-senile people in the home where I worked certainly did enjoy each other’s company, but all of them were bored and just wanted to talk with anyone who would listen. I would sit and talk with all of them about the history of the places they grew up. They always had the best stories to tell. Look for a place with lots of one-on-one care and planned social activities. And above all, encourage your family to visit often.

[Nippy]

Originally posted by C Elegans
@Nippy: Your familily situation certainly improves the likeliness that you can take care of your grandparents when the one day might need it You also point out another problem in modern society - the span between generation. Previously, it was normal with less than 20 years or so between the generations, now, it's normal with close to 30 years. The average age for the first children has increased dramatically since the 1960's.

My grandparents are all dead expect for my paternal grandmother who is 90 and the least sympatic person in all of my family She lives in her own flat, and is still healthy, whereas the other three all died of different forms of cancer.

I agree, completely. My sister and I have a 9 year age gap, and to me, that is worse than my father and I. She just seems young and it's difficult for me to understand sometimes. She acts juvenile, because she is juvenile and that makes life difficult for me, but I love her to bits and something as silly as that would'n't effect me.

I think sometimes some elderly people are just strong-willed. They have lived through wars and so on, and know hardship. They have a hidden strength and some people, if they live for a long time, are quite capable of living on their own.

[Demis]

My grandmother (from my father side) died because none of her children (including my dad) wanted to send her to a home. After some point my Gmother has suffered a disease that she couldn’t remember almost anything, I don’t know what the name of the disease, but it really bad IMO much nastier that a physical disease, it very sad that your own Gmother does not remember you anymore . To the point , not been able to remember a thing, logic is also no more so one day when she was left alone to her home, my Grandfather was out too, she burn her self with one of the heater in the house just because she no longer was able to see danger.

If she was taken to a home she might have lived until now but this is another story. My point is, expect that always you have to consider the situation for each individual, a home sometimes is the better option especially if the elders need daily, if not medical, attention. And most off us have to strip away ours ideas about elder homes and that they are always a bad place for the elders to live. I changed my mind about elder homes after this and now I know when time come if I can not give the attention or support that is needed to my mom and dad, I will provide them either with a nurse/ or send them to an elder home.

[C Elegans]

I'm really sorry to hear about your Granny, Demis The disease she suffered from was most likely Alzheimers Disease (AD), which is a kind of dementia that is fairly common in old people. The brain cells die off progressively, and the result is confusion, severe memory loss and personality changes. Often the disease begins with bad memory for recent events and episodes of confusion, but after a while the disease will get worse and worse, so the affected person does not, like you describe, recognise even the closest family members and can' remember something that happened a couple of minutes ago.

About 10% of all people above age 65 get affected by AD. Among people older than 85, about half get AD. This demonstrates the problem I discussed above, that many elderly people need professional care. At a certain point, all people with AD (if they don't die for other reasons first) will need round the clock care attention since they often risk hurting or even killing themselves or others. I once had a patient with AD who had forgotten her stove on, and the entire house was in flames. Nobody got injured, but several families living in the same house got their flats destroyed. Here in Sweden, it also happens sometimes that AD patients go out and freeze to death in the winter cold, since they can't find their way home.

[fable]

I suppose one of the problems is the extent to which an aging individual must sacrifice their own lifestyle--hence, their self-dignity--to "fit in" with the plans and expectations of an assisted living center; more so, with a home for the aged. It's easiest to accomodate people in these facilities who have never had major needs beyond visiting a local mall occasionally or watching television six hours a day. People who were used to the fast pace and availability of major metropolitan areas or involved in crafts and skills at greater depth don't fit easily into the basket-weaving and square-dancing crowds that form a standard at most homes.

I once interviewed a local head of a state-sponsored institution for the aged up in Minnesota (that's down in Minnesota, for all you Canucks), who said that the last years of one's life should be spent in conditions that aid in the reflective summing up of one's life, as preparation for death. That sounded nice, but when I asked her about those who didn't want to sum up but wished to continue with activities that made them part of an interactive artistic world--perhaps as fulltime potters, or writers, or drama coaches, or whatever--she turned quite militant on me. That was the *purpose* for the elderly at that time, and nobody should be allowed to deviate from that course. This left me with a feeling that it is better to be an average consumer in the consumer society as you age, than a creative talent possessed of a brain all your own.

[Demis]

@CE , i appreciate your concern and the info given. i'm thankful.

My main concern about elders is whoever gets to decide what to do especially if the elder can take this kind of dissusions. What happens if the family of the elder thinks that is best for him to be placed into a home, when the elder thinks otherwise?

[C Elegans]

The Minnesota center Fable describes, illustrates a problem that at least in Europe has become more and more common in elderly care, centra for disabled or psychiatricially ill, as well as child care - the ideological conformism.

Sometimes a certain ideology is choosen because a center wants to profile themselves at a competative market, sometimes they are choosen because the people running the center really believe in a certain ideology, but the result is however the same - lack of flexibility to individual needs and wishes.

IMO the best care centra are based on availibility of facilites and professional staff, without forcing people to participe in this or that. It can't be assumed that all elderly women wants to weave rugs

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by Demis
My main consern about elders is whoever gets to decide what to do especially if the elder can take this kind of dissusions. What happens if the family of the elder thinks that is best for him to be placed into a home, when the elder thinks otherwise?

I'm just been invloved in a large international study of Alzheimer's disease, so the info was sort of very easily accessible in my mind

Your concern here is one of the most fundamental ethical problems, a problem that in Sweden is solved in the same manner as when psychiatrically ill or disabled people do not want health care or treatment. When the person can be proved to be a risk for his/her own or others physical health, that person can be taken in by force. One of my friends Grandma had AD, and not only did she leave home and walked around for hours without being able to find her way back (a danger to her self), she also forgotten to turn of the stove, to put out candles etc, and once a small fire started in her flat because of this (a danger both to herself and her neighbours). She didn't at all want to leave her home, but she had to be placed at a home for elderly against her will.

Now, my friends Grandma is a pretty obvious case, but what about all the people like HLD:s Granny, who is not a danger but obviously (according to relatives) would have a much better life at some kind of elderly home? In HLD:s case, it turned out the Granny was happy that her family had insisted she moved, but this is not always the case. And we also have the problem with people who simply wants to "get rid" of old family members because they think it's a nuisance to have to care for others. Currently, the family cannot force an elderly person to move unless the elderly fulfills the critera above for being a danger. IMO, all societies should have an extensive information and service center that could assist people in taking these decisions, today the family often only gets a few short meetings and one or two visits to the elderly home before a decision has to be taken. I also think trial periods at elderly centra should be allowed for the elderly.

[ThorinOakensfield]

Sorry to hear that Demis.

My grandparents live in their own massive house. They love it there, and neither really have an problems or diseases except my grandfather's bad hearing. They're in their late 70's or in their 80's. I don't know the exact age.

[Demis]

The trial periods sounds very good especially when the family and elder debates lead nowhere.

[CM]

Interestingly, I know and knew from a very young age that I will be taking care of my parents. In Pakistan it is a given. Though if the topic comes up my parents say they will live on their own in Pakistan, but I know in some way I will be doing my utmost to be there.

As CE said it is a cultural\societal thing. My grandfather from my dads side, lived my dads youngest brother. My grandfather passed away 2 years ago, while my step-grandmother (don't like her at all made my dads life miserable, typical wicked step-mother thing) lives with my dads step sisters. We visit them when ever we can, but when we were in Pakistan we would go to see my grandfather and family every friday. Us kids would be around all the time to see if he needed anything. Heck if he moved one of us would be around to move for him! It was all very natural for us. I remember 4 around 5 years ago when I was last in Pakistan, my grandfather need a drink of water (he was very sick in his old age, died close to 100, 90 plus for sure) in 2 seconds he had 6 glasses of water. It was funny, then, now it sounds stupid.

My point i guess is that from a very young age in Pakistan, kids are taught that taking care of your parents is a natural thing. It is not something from what i have seen is forced on them, it is just shown through actions, with their grandparents living with them all the time, and seeing their father or mother take care of them. It is a natural part of life in Pakistan.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Originally posted by C Elegans
My grandparents are all dead expect for my paternal grandmother

Same here.

The stupid part is that my grandparents died in order of my favorite grandparent (my maternal grandmother, who died over ten years ago), to the grandparent I get along least well with (my paternal grandmother), who's still alive.