The nature of cheese

[Aubrey]

My dear my-name-was-stolen,

This is sophism: it lacks logic. And the logic says that Cowled Wizards have prohibited magic in order to control any magic user, securing thus their post in the city's council and knowing the whereabouts of any *possible* threat. Any time I've paid Corneil for a license, I was able to use magic wherever and whenever I liked. Why? They just needed my hard earned money! They are simply monkeys.


Cheers

[Littiz]

Pausing makes sense becuase it is practical ,you're right you can't be six people and the scripts are pretty dumb.

hmm, but you act as one, usually avoiding redundant (or opposing) commands... there's really some cheese here.

Right, I do so all the time, too.....

[mynamewasstolen]

You are right it is somewhat of a sophism. Let me be more explicit. If you don't have liscence then you are breaking the law, if your PC is lawful then you cannot be playing you're charcter... a lawful charcter should get a liscence and not use magic in the city until then. Chaotic- who cares. Neutral alignments should only use such spells when utility exist, and therefore when the need arises not when the need MAY arise. Even then surely the run of the mill citizen of Athkatla has been some what affected by the rareness of magic and would look harshly at any flagrant use of it... read Edwin's background.

Using magic overtly would be, for a heroic or good party, outside of what a DM would allow since it should effect their reps... rember the run of the mill citizen has no means to be aware of who does and does not have licenses. You may not agree, but I would suggest that you read the section in the DMG where it talks about "low magic" worlds.
Essentially the notion is that abnormality breeds contempt, or at least discomfort. A mage with stonskin up would look, to most, like a dangerous deviant. A good, and especially an heroic or lawful, PC doesn't want to cause distress, most neutral PC's don't want to draw attention and most chaotic or evil PC's don't mind killing the cowled wizards and unsettled locals anyway.


Sorry about the sophism, it was a good example though even if it was not inductive.

Oh yeah, thanks to every one who has participated this has been a really interesting discussion so far... even though discussing games "philosophically" is kind of funny.

DON"T AWNSER THESE:

What is the moral consequence of Liliacor?
Are the cowled wizards a causal effect of the society of Amn?
If you dismantle a golem and then rebuild him with different peices is it the same golem if he still gaurds the same Planar Sphere?

[Glod]

I'd hardly call Amn a "low-magic" place. You can't turn around without tripping over a lich or an archmage. Vendors all over town sell mage scrolls and other magic. The commoners may be suspicious of magic but it sure isn't rare. The most likely reaction to not knowing if some mage nearby is licensed would be to just get out of the way and let someone else (e.g. the cowled wizards) worry about it. Not that it really matters, but in the game, the very act of casting a mage spell outdoors in Athkatla and not being accosted by the CWs means you've been licensed.

I think you're going a bit overboard on alignment determining action. Unless you want very stilted and artificial characters, the proper way to think about alignment is to devise a character you want to play and then figure out what his alignment would be, not take an alignment and generate all his actions from it. "Lawful characters must do x while neutrals do y and chaotics do z" is not my idea of what roleplaying is about.

[lompo]

Originally posted by mynamewasstolen

Essentially the notion is that abnormality breeds contempt, or at least discomfort. A mage with stonskin up would look, to most, like a dangerous deviant. A good, and especially an heroic or lawful, PC doesn't want to cause distress, most neutral PC's don't want to draw attention and most chaotic or evil PC's don't mind killing the cowled wizards and unsettled locals anyway.

Anybody forget there are "contingency" spells!!
that is what they are up for!!
I have my mages set contingency with stoneskin at enemy sight, and I will set chain-cont. with some other protective spell (mirror image, blur, prot. from magical weapon/energy and so on) at enemy sight.
Cheese is setting those spells at enemy sight!!!!

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Originally posted by mynamewasstolen
You are right it is somewhat of a sophism. Let me be more explicit. If you don't have liscence then you are breaking the law, if your PC is lawful then you cannot be playing you're charcter... a lawful charcter should get a liscence and not use magic in the city until then. Chaotic- who cares. Neutral alignments should only use such spells when utility exist, and therefore when the need arises not when the need MAY arise. Even then surely the run of the mill citizen of Athkatla has been some what affected by the rareness of magic and would look harshly at any flagrant use of it... read Edwin's background.

Using magic overtly would be, for a heroic or good party, outside of what a DM would allow since it should effect their reps... rember the run of the mill citizen has no means to be aware of who does and does not have licenses. You may not agree, but I would suggest that you read the section in the DMG where it talks about "low magic" worlds.
Essentially the notion is that abnormality breeds contempt, or at least discomfort. A mage with stonskin up would look, to most, like a dangerous deviant. A good, and especially an heroic or lawful, PC doesn't want to cause distress, most neutral PC's don't want to draw attention and most chaotic or evil PC's don't mind killing the cowled wizards and unsettled locals anyway.


Sorry about the sophism, it was a good example though even if it was not inductive.

Oh yeah, thanks to every one who has participated this has been a really interesting discussion so far... even though discussing games "philosophically" is kind of funny.

Presumably the average citizen has enough common sense to stay out of the affairs of the cowled wizards, and will figure anyone who is casting spells without being told off is allowed to, perhaps even working for the cowled monkeys themselves. Another point to consider is that Amn is very much a feudal system; the rich have the power and the poor stay out of their way. As I doubt many paupers couild afford the 6000 gp "test" to get a liscence, much less be able to afford the scrolls and robes etc. they would presumably know to avoid making trouble with the ruling class of the city. Lastly, who's going to mess with a mage who can, should they so desire, turn them into a squirrel? I wouldn't take on a mage, especially a mage with a retinue of warriors, priests and thieves helping protect them if I was a citizen of Athkatla.

[Aubrey]

I have to say that harming citizens and harming cowled wizards are two different things.

Has anyone noticed that third party characters to whom you can talk (from the man in Windspear Hills and the Order of the Most Radiant Heart to Aran Linvail at Shadow Thieves Guild) do not highly esteem cowled wizards? And I don't think that it has to do with social classes or the establishment.

And yet it's at least ridiculous to have wizards ruling a city where spellcasting is illegal.

Cheers

[mynamewasstolen]

You are going to have to forgive me if I can't cover all of these counters, and my responses my be blunt... but at least they won't be long winded.

@Ode to Grasshoper. You made to seperate points:

1) That citizens would not become violent.
2) That a party of adventurers are not going to get attacked.

I agree that the citizens wouldn't become violent, but they would be any where form edgey to scared for all the reasons mentioned... A fight breaks out a magic missle goes off and boom the cowled wizards show up and there goes half the promenade.
I've been attacked several times in the city, not just by large groups either. Go to the fountain on the west side of the Promade. There is a guy there that will attack your party if you have Viconia in it. So just because you look like a party of armed thugs doesn't mean people won't attack you.
A fight with the cowled wizards as you all likely know can be fun but early on it is deadly. Think about having lived in Athkatla for your entire life and knowing from day to day the power that the coweled wizards yeild. Then think about how you would react to a mage, when he could or could not be licensed and the wrath he could bring to bear upon you.

@Aubery. It is two different things. It's law versus morals. Note that you don't lose rep for killing a cowled wizard or an amnish legonar... why? Because people fear them not like them.
Just because they dislike them however doesn't mean that they don't fear them and will intervene when they get involved. Infact go to the temple disrtict and cast spells with out liscence and watch how many Paladins come to help when you kill the first cowled wizard.

@Iompo. Actually I would consider that acceptable if your PC planned on going to a rough are of town. For stone skin. Chain is a bit of overkill.

@Glod. Again read Edwin's background. Notice also where you meet Edwin. He obviously is not there on any real buisness since he doesn't care that you plan to expose Mae'var. He is there for safety, and if I recall he says just as much. The cowled wizards may not be able to deal with the liches... and the liches don't come out and stalk the streets at night so no one has any real reason to know that they are there. It is not a "low magic" world in that it lacks magic but in that it restricts legaly. The attitudes would be similiar. Notice that few mages walk around, the only ambivilant solitary mage that just randomly lives in Athkatla is the guy in the Adventurers Mart, he's onlylike fifth to tenth level as well. Compare Athkatla, which is the capital of an Empire, with Baldur's Gate, a small port of call. How many wizards were there in BG. Recall Ramazith... his home was not only next to but over shadowed the palace. Athkatla is relativley toned down, especially given size. As for scroll sellers... the few wizards taht do exist have to be able to pay that six thousand gp and likely sever taxes for living in Athkatla. Since it is a port they likely get enough visitors to make some money. Other than that I think it really is willing suspension of disbelief. As for alignment... I hate them. I think AL is useless... it's to cut and dry and moralistic. Certainly they do exist in the game for a reason. And you dan't have to play them cut and dry in this game... Korgan commends you for killing the slavers even if you are evil. Cernd will ally with the shadow druids to kill you if you poison the well. Jaheria gets angry if your rep goes to high where as Yoshimo likes it. But a person who generally abides by the law is not going to break the law because they have an excuse. A criminal may even turn themselves in instead of being killed on the spot.

FOR EVERYONE: My point is that you should think about wether your character would or would not use magic in the city streets with ot with out a liscence. Think about the reactions which were likely to program in and then think that in circumstance blah are you taking advantage of the programming. Some characters would, others would not. Now that's it I have a history book to read and was supposed to start an hour ago.Thanks guys.

[The Z]

First off, Cheese to me is staying out of the LOS and killing a dragon (exploiting the wierd AI...as it has been stated, it's hard to believe a dragon wouldn't figure out he/she was being bombarded by cloudkills, least of all, just stand there as if it wasn't). Cheese is also custom items that are better than the ones in ToB....weapons or armor or whatever like that should have at least a few disadvantages to make up for all the other things added.

Second, I prefer contingencies to walking around the streets either as a grey humanoid, or in a giant blue bubble. It's not cheese, but it seems more sensible to just have the nifty contingencies on, rather than having every commoner within fifty miles staring at you.

Third, about the roleplaying. Instead of worrying about alignment, they should've implemented a PS:T type alignment system to sort out "whether my character would do this or that", because when you actually do something drastic, your alignment would change, and that would solve this issue. But anyways....we're talking BG2, and I wholeheartedly agree that since it's a set alignment, you should question whether your character would actually use cheesy things.

Fourth, my opinion in this post has been pretty weak, and I'll shut up now

[island007]

Hi,

I agree the mages should not walk around the city streets with stoneskin. However, once you realize you are in a dangerous situation, it would be prudent to cast the spell. For example, I walk the streets unbuffed, but once I enter the sewers all my mages cast stoneskin. The information you get from the Helm priest is sufficient enough to realize the sewers are a dangerous place.

Also, I don't buff when I walk to destinations like Trademeet or the Keep. Once I'm ready to enter the Keep or the Druid's Grove the stoneskins go up.

What I'm saying is the casting of stoneskin before you see an enemy is not by itself cheese. If a rational person would expect danger to be imminent.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks

[mynamewasstolen]

Actually Z you had a pretty interesting point about the AL system. I tend to demand a background from my players and a description of their characters. I find that viewing a character as an average joe who fought in the most recent war in the region only to return and find that the very war he fought resulted in the lose of his wife and farm but still he serves his lord more informative then "I'm a lawful neutral fighter". It also helps to avoid table top cheese. The point that BG2 does use the AL system is also interesting, but I do admit that it is not hard and fast. One of the things that the question "what would my character do" should take into account is context. Environment is as equal in this as AL, but certainly AL is not the driving force of any character. It indicates a general trend. That being said: it helps me to think of it as more black and white then grey, since there is no one there to moderate my PC's actions other than me. The game seems to operate on a more black and white then grey level as well... Keldorn quest. Not to say there are not grey areas, there are.