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Fable lad, Salvatore bein' a bad writer?

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Post by Armadin of Clan Geddin »

Originally posted by Witch King:
<STRONG>The word "Salvatore" and the word "author" don't even belong in the same sentence.</STRONG>
Arghh! :mad: :mad:

He be alright, methinks. As far as I've read of Tolkien, he be decent too. I've only read the Dark Elf Trilogy though, so I can't be speakin' in general. I've enjoyed them, I must be admittin'.
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Post by Witch King »

Originally posted by Armadin of Clan Geddin:
<STRONG>Arghh! :mad: :mad:

He be alright, methinks. As far as I've read of Tolkien, he be decent too. I've only read the Dark Elf Trilogy though, so I can't be speakin' in general. I've enjoyed them, I must be admittin'.</STRONG>

The words "decent" and "Tolkien" do not belong in the same sentence either. To extend the metaphor, "Armadin" and "bright" are mutually exclusive as well.
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Post by Armadin of Clan Geddin »

Originally posted by Witch King:
<STRONG>
The words "decent" and "Tolkien" do not belong in the same sentence either. To extend the metaphor, "Armadin" and "bright" are mutually exclusive as well.</STRONG>
Tsk tsk :rolleyes:

So "brilliant" an' "Tolkien" then?
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Post by Anatres »

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Anatres ]
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Post by ThorinOakensfield »

Dwarves aren't to smart except me, but then again, I'm god, and you really can't make fun of me.
To fix Armadin's sentences:
As far as I've read of Tolkien, he be amazing, the best writer ever, outstanding, brilliant too.
As far as I've read of Salvatore, he be decent too.
Thats it.
Salvatore is good, but he's a little pawn while Tolkeins the queen(king).
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Post by Witch King »

Originally posted by Armadin of Clan Geddin:
<STRONG>Tsk tsk :rolleyes:

So "brilliant" an' "Tolkien" then?</STRONG>

Sorry, my immaturity ran away with me...

How about "trash" and "tolkien"?
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Post by Kayless »

Tolkien’s books aren’t the easiest to read but his attention to detail is astounding. As a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature Tolkien actually took the time to create the languages and history of the races in his novels. He created orcs (based on Beowulf: "orc-nass", translated as "death-corpses) and hobbits (halflings) as well as many of the other modern versions of old fantasy creatures. Some may not like his writing but to totally dismiss it would be disrespectful to the man responsible for inspiring D&D and Baldur’s Gate itself (who here can reasonably refute that Tolkien’s work isn’t the basis for modern fantasy?). I’ll be the first in line when the Fellowship of the Ring comes to theaters this Christmas.
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Post by Armadin of Clan Geddin »

Originally posted by Witch King:
<STRONG>
Sorry, my immaturity ran away with me...

How about "trash" and "tolkien"?</STRONG>
(sigh) :rolleyes:

How 'bout "reasonable" an' "Foul"?
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Post by Armadin of Clan Geddin »

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>Dwarves aren't to smart except me, but then again, I'm god, and you really can't make fun of me. </STRONG>
LOL :D

Let's be seein' how we can make fun of ye....

Oakensfield! :D :D
So ye're the smart one, are ye? :D

God..... :rolleyes:
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>(who here can reasonably refute that Tolkien’s work isn’t the basis for modern fantasy?)</STRONG>
Fable? (my hero)
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by fable »

Dear Gods, here we go, all over again. (sigh) I'm going to post, here, an altered and summarized version of three posts I did in a thread under BG2, where I wrote that Tolkien isn't, in effect, the basis of modern fantasy, and that the published works of what are now considered major fantasy authors since Tolkien's day bear this out.

One point, if I may. I hope nobody thinks I'm attacking their personal hygiene, right to exist, or parents by suggesting the above. Apparently, some people in that thread thought so, because I received threatening email and promises at the time that I would be given ratings of "1" by some fantasy lovers who said I was throwing a certain substance on their god. My hands were clean. I wish I could say as much for their mouths. ;)

Here we go:

First, let's remember that Tolkien's LOTR, arguably his most influential work, didn't take hold in the US (home of many great fantasy authors, and one lame president) until 1967-68, after the American publication of a pirated edition of the trilogy. (I still have my copy!) If we agree Tolkien is the basis of modern fantasy, then we could logically conclude that little popular fantasy existed before Tolkien, or that what did exist was either poorly read or not influential.

The literature of the time, the popularity of it, and the reviews show that not to be the case. Great fantasy writers of the 1940's through 1970's like Vance, de Camp, Pratt, Fritz Leiber, Blish, Van Vogt, Zelazny, Delaney, Anderson and others were exceedingly well-read, and even occupied rather more of many bookstores that I recall than modern fantasy does. (Not that they took up necessarily more floor space, but that there were more titles out there, on the shelves. Mass marketing has led to displays of ten copies of a given novel, instead of two or three copies of three novels, IMO.)

So what did these authors, and others, create? Just about everything you'll find in modern fantasy: dwarves, elves, bard songs, shifty thieves with magical tools, barbarian fighters, decrepid, decadent cultures, cursed jewels, plotting gods, priests casting blessing and curses, mages blasting the elements and summoning demons, guilds of assassins, battles royal, brotherly betrayals, shapechanging druids, giants and trolls, and a wonderful variety of writing styltes that seem to have largely been left behind in these days of TSR clones. All this, before Tolkien's LOTR hit the college and counter-culture folks around 1968.

In the 1970's, Tolkien's influence was still not paramount. I was a reviewer at the time, and I can't recall a single book published by Avon, Ace, Ballantine, or DAW (Don Wollheim's label, and nice folks, too) that emulated Tolkien, except for the first Shanara book: a horrible piece of near-plagirism. (I don't much care for the author's later works, but they're a damn sight more original and better written than The Sword of Shanara.) But that didn't show up until 1978, and it didn't start a trend.

What did start a kind of trend was Gary Gygax's idea that second and third-rate authors could be bought up, fed his own cliched RPG ideas, and forced to write in whatever reality he gave to them. This, unfortunately, worked. Many writers who otherwise couldn't sell a novel of theirs simply took Gygax's commandments and turned out whatever he wanted, in order to get paid. Some of them were Tolkien fans, of course, and that began filtering into the genre during the 1980's and 90's.

But it would be an exaggeration, I think, to claim that Tolkien forms the basis of modern fantasy. Go into any bookstore; a lot of fantasy work on the shelves has nothing to do with the most prominent elements that Tolkien could claim for his own: hobbits, and creating original languages. What else can be claimed for Tolkien? Someone wrote in another thread that he invented Elves in modern fiction, but this isn't the case. Off the top of my pointy head, I've read the following, all quite popular and influential:

Dunsany's The Kith of the Elf Folk (better still, The King of Elfland's Daughter)

Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill

Philip K Di*k's The King of the Elves (gods, I can't believe that the system won't let me write this author's name)

Tieck's The Elves

Pratt & de Camp's Land of Unreason (elves drawn out of a brilliant realization of Oberon and Titania and their courts, from The Midsummer Night's Dream)

Most of the pre-1960's fantasy fiction of Jack Vance...or hell, the newer fantasy, as well. (The Green Pearl is an excellent example. His elves are decidedly alien in character and attitude, being air elementals.)

If any single person could actually claim to have had an enormous impact on modern fantasy, it would be Lord Dunsany. He invented the now familiar pseudo-medieval landscape, populated with elves, dwarves, and humans, traveling through darkened corners of peril, fame and extinction--and all this, during the early part of the 20th century. His influence upon Tolkien and Eddison (whose The Worm Ouroboros is a magnificent work of fantasy) was profound.

Here are some great, all too neglected fantasy authors I recommend as good reading:

Fletcher Pratt, the great American historian of the American Civil War and Scandanavia, wrote The Well of the Unicorn. I think in its single, complex novel there's arguably more context that Tolkien provided--because Tolkien was an historian of cultures, while Tolkien focused on languages.

ERR Eddison was a member of the same group as Tolkien. He's even less original, if possible, than his friend, but still more colorful and more flavorful in his use of language. He wrote three novels, but his masterpiece is The Worm Ouroboros: slow-moving and brilliant. (The chapter of the summoning by the evil king is a flat-out masterpiece of fantasy.) Where Tolkien was attracted to a host of northern European medieval sources, Eddison drew as well from the English Renaissance.

James Branch Cabell was an early 20th century Virginian with a very different view, both romantic and ironic. His writing style was colored by medieval French sources, of whose poetry and prose he was a master translator. He wrote 25 books(!) in one long series, detailing the history and descendants of two fictional fantasy characters, Dom Manuel and Jurgen. The prose is brilliant, the mind behind it, learned as all hell, the humor (when it occurs) excruciatingly funny. Talk about contextual depth: one of Cabell's books is nothing but a lineage for his two main characters! Cabell also focuses on a quality not found in Tolkien and Eddison: the sadness of evanescent pleasures taken by mortals.

Here's a brief sample of his prose:

"From what you tell us, Emperor Jurgen," said all the demons, "your wife was an acidulous shrew, and the sort of woman who believes that whatever she does is right."

"It was not a belief," says Jurgen: "it was a mania with the poor dear."

"By that fact, then, she is forever debarred from entering Hell."

"You tell me news," says Jurgen, "which if generally known would lead many husbands into vicious living."

"But it is notorious that people are saved by faith. And there is no strong faith than that of a bad-tempered woman in her own infallibility. Plainly this wife of yours is the sort of person who cannot be tolerated by anybody short of the angels. We deduce that your Empress must be in Heaven."


Cabell also had a sly way with sexual innuendo. It actually got what was probably his best book (and a favorite of Mark Twain), Jurgen, banned in New York City by the Society for the Prevention of Vice. It took a group of the most prominent writers and intellectuals of the day to take the matter to court, before the ban was lifted.

Then, there's the Gormenghast trilogy of Mervyn Peake. Personally, I've never liked it, but there's no denying it's a wonderfully oddball, completely unique fantasy world, incredibly deep and unlike any other. Think of what D!ckens might have done if he had decided to create a series of novels peopled by almost nobody but dead folk, all treated like the strange, delightful secondary characters that occur throught in his works; that's the Gormenghast trilogy.

Then, there's the Lankhmar group of fantasy novels by the great Fritz Leiber, with that pair of highly flawed, disreputable and thoroughly likeable heroes, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. They read so easily that it's simple to overlook all the depth Leiber packed in them; but if you spend time concentrating on the narrative and descriptions, you soon realize this is a fully developed universe with its own series of social mores, political relationships, overarching themes, etc. There were six, I think, all structured as a series of short interlocking stories or novellas, and all but the last can be highly recommended.

About Tolkien: I think he has great virtues and great flaws as a writer. He was a brilliant craftsman from earlier materials. He had a great sense of the use and manipulation of English, within a limited pastoral framework. He was a master of the music of English. He was a great literary architect, and knew how to build and pace a huge novel naturally. His larger than life characters have a mythic appeal. His sense of atmosphere is strong. He knows and uses the right word at all times: a rare virtue.

He also has recourse to deus ex machinas all too often (Gandalf's reappearance; the multiple rescues by eagle; etc). He had no knowledge of, or interest in, combat, even though he uses it: he just gives a vague sense of what's going on, and concentrates on a few people's activities. His notion, woven into his fiction, that "the average people must be protected from the horrors of reality" makes me personally sick to my stomach; and that same opinion still underscores much of politics in many lands, I'm afraid. His villians tend to ridiculous stereotypes, especially the lesser ones: I still can't forget the orcs sneering at Frodo in standard English public school fashion, "He can't take his medicine."

I also don't care for his universal way of depicting specific races; but that may be because I know the nasty shadow of the Edwardian background Tolkien derived from. It's the same one that fostered a whole ton of books (including some by the likes of GK Chesterton and Arthur Conan Doyle--but not his Sherlock Holmes series) in which individuals are all depicted, positively or negatively, by supposed hereditary groups: all Russians were subtle and violence prone, all Jews were envious and spiteful of their "betters," all Celtic types were noble and fearless, etc. And there is *some* of that under the skin of Tolkien's books, with his oh-so-noble-and-magical elves, or his grumpy, secluded, suspicious, money-grubbing dwarves. An isolated elf or dwarf (Gimli, for example) may be different, but only to point out the uniformity of all the others. Damn it, I want elves with adenoid problems! Beautiful, sensitive dwarven priestesses!

Enough. I'm sure there's plenty to attack me upon, up there. Have fun. ;)

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: fable ]
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>

Enough. I'm sure there's plenty to attack me upon, up there. Have fun. ;)
</STRONG>
I will throw the first stone :D God how can you type that much!! :D :D
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Post by Mr Snow »

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Enough. I'm sure there's plenty to attack me upon, up there. Have fun. ;)

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: fable ]</STRONG>

I don't think so Fable, You have given them more than they can chew :D :D

But congrats on the thoughtful post ;)
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Post by Flagg »

I'll be brave and I will throw in my 2 cents.....

On Salvatore. His best work has to be the first novel of the Dark Elf trilogy. I just loved the way he described the drow world. The dark elf trilogy is indeed a lot better than the Icewind Dale trilogy IMO.

One of the problems with Salvatore is that he is not willing to kill off any of the good guys. This is truly a shame. Take for example the main storyline in the Dragonlance world written by Weis and Hickman. They show you that they really have no problems with killing a main character or two along the way. On the other hand, Salvatore had no problem with killing of Chewie in Vector Prime.

However I still like Salvatore quite a bit. Especially his latest novel Silent Blade has revived my interest in his works. I am still planning on reading the cleric quintet.

Now on LotR. I have read the four books (including the Hobbit), and I was utterly dissappointed by the ending. I found the ending to be anti-climatic. I loved reading the book up till the point where they reached the evil fortress, and then it is finished in a short timespan....

@Fable, It is interesting to see that a good case can be argued that Tolkien wasn't as influential as popular belief likes to think. How come so many people credit Tolkien with so much?
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Post by TheHellion »

@fable:

Considering that D&D itself is basically Middle Earth, and that WotC publishes as many novels in one year as it would take one of your authors twenty, I'd say Tolkien has the greatest influence of any author of modern fantasy. The fact is, although there's a wealth of great original work out there (Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, for instance), it just pales in comparison to the mass production of half-assed RPG novels. Sad, but, at least in my opinion, true.

By the way, I can't believe you actually rehashed that whole post. :D You long-winded geezer.

While we're on the topic of Tolkien, I'll grace you all with my opinion of him as well. :D He's sort of an enigma. I definitely respect the man, but I'm not so sure I actually like his work. When I first read The Hobbit, I was enthralled; that's what got me into fantasy in the first place, and even into playing AD&D. But, having recently re-read it, I see it as more of what it is: a children's book. I never realized just how cutesy it is. The LotR is less so, but is still distinctively Tolkien.

Phew, challenging fable and pissing off Tolkien lovers everywhere. I just may live to see nineteen, but I doubt it. :rolleyes:

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: TheHellion ]
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Post by Aegis »

First off, I'm Back! :D

Now, on to buisiness. I feel, as an aspiring writer, that I should get some say in all this. I believe that there is truly no real bad writers, just undeveloped ones. Salvatore is one of these authors. He is reletivly young when compared to some of the greats (Tolkien) but already he shows enourmous potential, and will eventually take the throne if it continues to grow. I have read two out of the three Dark Elf books, and am going to pick up the third soon. What I have read though, I can easily place on a level equal to that of Tolkiens. His use of imagery and description is just fantastic. There is no extra verbage, and he only puts in what is needed, and what would be enjoyed. Before I get flamed for this, yes he does overuse some words, but what author doesn't at some times? Also, in response to the comment made about him never killing main characters off, what about in Exile? Clacker was in that book from mid-point to end, but he was killed. There others, but I don't wish to spoil the ending for others.

Even though Tolkien is by far my favorite author, even I get annoyed with his style of writing at times. For instance, how many pages does it actually take to describe a fricken' tree! Sometimes too much description takes away from the experiance, and sadly, Tolkiens books were like that. But, where he over-described, he made up for in character development. His use of character development was unique, to say the least, and I do believe it set the bsis for MODERN Fantasy (As you notice, I'm not including pre Tolkien days).

Finally, Dragonlance. Weis and Hickman were the real thrust for Modern Fantasy. Without those two, and the Seasons Trilogy, Fantasy would be in a major doldrum, and the market would most likely be bankrupt. Their ability to work together, and create a masterpiece was an incredale thing. Keep in mind though, that was two minds working together. A Much easier, or more difficult experiance, depending on how it's done.

All I can say to wrap this up is don't knock writers. As I said, there are no bad writers, just undeveloped ones. Those that don't develop, usually don't continue to write, so don't worry. Salvatore is quickly becomeing one of the greats because he keeps writing. So, give people a chance, if you don't like their current work, wait a year or two and pick up there new book. It might surprise you on how they've learned and expanded.
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Post by Gwalchmai »

Fable, you ARE my hero. I want to be you when I grow up, err... when I grow up more.
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by Vivien »

I thought I'd throw in my thoughts, but I'm not getting into any arguments with any of you :)

Fable: Clearly you've read more than I have. That's fine, but I've years to catch up to you. You just wait ;) :D

TheHellion: I wasn't sure if I should mention, but about Robert Jordan... (I love it, he has red headed women knowing how to fight! If only...) ;) I admire his work, but it's not as orginal as some think... We've seen Rand Al'Thor before :)
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Post by Anatres »

Perhaps (without getting into the wholechicken and egg fantasy authors bit) what one person finds enjoyable to read is just a matter of personal preference. And exposure. Not having read every book of every author who has ever written, whether fantasy or not, I find Tolkien's works to be quite good and Salvatore's mediocre. But that's just me.
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Post by Kayless »

Originally posted by Kayless:
<STRONG>He created orcs (based on Beowulf: "orc-nass", translated as "death-corpses)</STRONG>
@Fable, You gotta give Tolkien credit for orcs at least. Whether you want to say that Hobbits were created by Oscar Wiggerstomper of Maine in 1879 is your prerogative. :p
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