a father's rights

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 6:02 pm

Originally posted by nael:

my main point was on whether or not the child is half mine or all hers?

IMHO It's all her's till it can "live outside" of the mother. Then it's half yours.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:04 am

Originally posted by nael:
my main point was on whether or not the child is half mine or all hers?

I do apologize for straying from the original intention...

Half yours is my answer. Your sperm, her egg. The embryo/fetus may develop within the mother once her egg is fertilized; but without a sperm cell to meet the egg cell there is no embryo to begin with. See what I mean? Both partners share an EQUAL ROLE in the creation of the embryo. Without the sperm, the egg cannot fertilize. It cannot create an embryo on its own. Same with the sperm, it cannot create anything on its own. (Didn't we all learn this in biology class?...) Thus, since the male and the female each had an equal part in creating the embryo to begin with, that embryo is theirs equally from the moment of fertilization, and not only starting at the child's birth (to quote Weasel, again as a general reference). This is what I meant when I said, on the day when a woman can create an embryo in her womb completely on her own, I may consider the resulting embryo "all hers." Until then, while Nature still dictates that "it takes two," it's yours and hers, together.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Shadow Sandrock · Post by **Shadow Sandrock** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:10 am

@loner72--that is like really dead on the nail

However today with artificial insemination (sp?) or whatever, women don't really need the man to have sex with her anymore, because there are male donors instead. And because the male will most likely never meet the female, the baby will probably never have a father. Or in my mom's doctor's case, have "two mommies"

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:52 am

Originally posted by Shadow Sandrock:
However today with artificial insemination (sp?) or whatever, women don't really need the man to have sex with her anymore, because there are male donors instead.

There is still a sperm cell involved in the fertilization in this case, though. That is the point I'm getting at. It's not necessarily the sex act that I'm talking about. In artificial insemination, the female still does not create the embryo on her own. The sperm cell could come from a donor who lives in the next continent but because his cell was instrumental in the creation of the embryo, that embryo still does not biologically belong solely to the mother. It is still "half his." Judging from the fact that the sperm was dontated, there is an implicit renunciation of responsibility for the resulting child on the part of the male involved. I'm just speaking from a strictly biological point of view.

[ 10-22-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:20 am

Loner: I see your point, and I respect your views

*hug*

Nael: I dont' know if this is done intentionally, but it sometimes seems in your posts in this thread that your attitude towards women is...well..negative? I'd be more willing to actually discuss this, but sometimes you state things in a very cut and dry manner, on a subject that is not cut and dry. You talk of fairness, and I think of the MANY women I know who have dead beat's for husbands, men working the system to get out of all responsiblity.

But, does this in any way reflect on men as a whole? No. There are many wonderful men out there. It just is nice that there are some laws that protect women from the not so nice ones...becuse like it or not women do not only have to go through the 'mere' nine months of pregnancy, many women never emotionally get over this (giving their baby up for adoption or abortion). And keeping a child alone can be a scary thing.

I know you're joking when you say 'women are evil' etc...but this is such a sensitive subject for many...

This is not in any way an attack on you. *hug*

Viv

nael · Post by **nael** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:31 am

Hi Viv - believe me, i know that there are dead beats, on one of these pages i talked about that part of it. that is the reason why the baby will never be confirmed to be 100% the mother's legally, and have everyoen just hope the fathers will step up.
i do believe that the current views do conclude to being the best for the majority of children, but there is still somethign very wrong with and unfair about the laws today.

Vivien · Post by **Vivien** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:49 am

Originally posted by nael:
Hi Viv - believe me, i know that there are dead beats, on one of these pages i talked about that part of it. that is the reason why the baby will never be confirmed to be 100% the mother's legally, and have everyoen just hope the fathers will step up.
i do believe that the current views do conclude to being the best for the majority of children, but there is still somethign very wrong with and unfair about the laws today.

You see, in general I see your point here. The man should in many ways have some say. I'm very much for equality, and I actually tend to be prolife. So,you see I understand...

But...

If I continue this debate, about an issue that means a lot to me, I'm probably going to take things personally. Therefore, I'll end with one comment:

Yes, it may in some cases be unfair. But nature isn't always fair, and I think there are a many more cases in which woman, just by being woman, is given the raw end of the deal...

nael · Post by **nael** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 9:59 am

Originally posted by Vivien:
You see, in general I see your point here. The man should in many ways have some say. I'm very much for equality, and I actually tend to be prolife. So,you see I understand...

But...

If I continue this debate, about an issue that means a lot to me, I'm probably going to take things personally. Therefore, I'll end with one comment:

Yes, it may in some cases be unfair. But nature isn't always fair, and I think there are a many more cases in which woman, just by being woman, is given the raw end of the deal...

i understand completely, and i also know that women get the raw deal at times as well. but thanks for stoppign in to post and being fair and level headed.