Gender in RPG

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Sun May 04, 2008 9:49 pm

GawainBS wrote:In Wizardry VIII, there was no difference between the carry capacities of males & females. Sorry about misreading it earlier.

Grrrrr!!!! I don't remember which game it was. Could be Ruins of Myth Drannor.

About the armour: it's not about the weight, it's about distribution of the weight. Platemail is more comfortable to wear than chainmail: the weight isn't such a factor, because platemail distributes it over the whole of the body and doesn't let it drag on the shoulders alone.
I won't nitpick about the claymore: it might just as well be a sword weighing about 2 pounds, depending on specific type.

Weight distribution or not, it is still over 75 pounds to carry around. And not just carry, you have to fight. Oh, and add a heavy shield to the equation. Must be very fatiguing.
Full plate offers a better protection and looks cool but it is bulky and cumbersome compare to chain or leather.
Btw, medieval knights often wore chainmail (hauberk and coif) under their padded plate armor for better protection.

Anyway, I find this limit artificial: if you're a warrior, you can do every thing a warrior can, or else you aren't one. I think the Marine-example made it quite clear.

The Marine example did not make it clear at all. Check this out.

I don't mind female warriors in fantasy RPG (and most of the time it is a purely esthetical choice anyway) but if I want to play fighter/knight I’d rather play a male character. It seems more realistic to me.

fable wrote: By maknig the experience of discrimination as varied and multilayered as it is in the realworld, we would offer the player something strikingly different. And with the prospect of achievable goals in sight, it could be very playable.

In short, I think we're looking at a series of slider values affecting considerably more than attributes. And more than anything PCish. The values would need to be configured for the culture, at all levels.

I agree. For example, PC comes to a remote benighted village. The only accepted outsider is peddler Jones who brings goods and rumors every summer, when the surrounding swamps get drier. Any newcomer is looked upon with suspicion and an adventurer will have a hard time asking for directions ("Huh? Cave o'goblins? Never heared 'bout no cave. Elder Moss might know but if I was in yer shoes, I'd not bother Elder Moss."). A female will have an even harder time ("Huh? Cave o'goblins? Ain't ye have no husband, lass? Off with ye afore Elder Moss sees ye gallivantin' 'round in yer leathers.").
A half-orc adventurer will have to dodge a pitchfork before having a chance to ask a question ("Huh? Cave o'gob... Are ye talkin' to me? ARE YE TALKIN' TO ME?!").

@Domi Ash

Of course you don’t have to play games you dislike so intensely. But does it mean those games are bad?
Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition is female-only game. Have you played it?

It was PS:T in particular that convinced me that I should not waste my toime on male-only game. The only time I had some sort of a success playing PS:T (as in not grinding my teeth in frustration anticipating the alleged greatness to seep in and overwhelm...) was when I said screw you, Interplay, took the dialogues, re-wrote them for the female lead and repalced the main character avatar with a female. Then, Monty's jokes were not a reason to want to go and hung myself wuite so much (though only Shandra managed to take over from him as the most hated character of all times), and Deionar (instead of Deionarra) did not cause me to want to scream in agony at the horrifying cheesyness of the game (hells, I even called him Kivan at first to make it bearable!).

Out of curiosity, can you tell us what made you hate this “male-only” game so much? What was cheesy? Dialogues? Story? Deaders?

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon May 05, 2008 12:28 am

Ladey Dragonfly, that's my whole point: Platemail does weigh more, but it is easier to move around in than Chainmail. Chainmail hangs down from the shoulders and drags your arms with it. This is a common similar: Take a heavy sweater, and soak it in water and wear that. Now use a belt to buckle it around you waist and under your armpits. That gives a nice impression.
Not to say that you or I could jump in a suit of platemail and start prancing about.

It still requires training.
I don't really get it, with that article. It's intresting, but how does it show that women can't wear as much armour as men? It just said that those new plates where optional in most regions, and probably get mandatory sometime in the future.
To Domi... Nobody should be forced to play a game (it would be silly), but rating the game based on the gender of the protagonist seems to a little overreactive at least. Would BG have been a bad game if it has a male-only protagonist?

Wajal · Post by **Wajal** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:49 am

Hi there, going to add some points here,

The first is that males tend to be stronger then females irl, but one thing I find intresting is that a female can carry more weight in comparison on muscelmass and body-weight then male. If you take in calculation that a female's gear would have lesser weight then the gear of a male, in most cases the female should be abel to carry more while having armor and weapons.

British military had some tests in these areas and I think the US army had some tests here too, dont find a link, sorry. So you have to trust me on the word...

The second is that a game of rpg where males and females are treated the same is for me boring and I find it unrealistic. I dont care mutch about stats and things but the world should react diffrent if I play a female or if I play a male.. mostly because the irl world meet boys and girls in diffrent ways.
Some may see this as sexistiskt (dont know if this is the right word in english) and unnecessary but this is the world today and if you dont consider this in a rpg you lose much of the roleplaying.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Mon May 05, 2008 7:15 am

Out of curiosity, can you tell us what made you hate this “male-only” game so much? What was cheesy? Dialogues? Story? Deaders?

Main charater and having to play this particular green umber hulk. Dialogue and dialogue style (lots of writing describing stuff particulary things like "the most beautiful girl you have ever seen" - I really dislike it when I am told what I am supposed to feel. Joinable NPC (haven't seen others, but Morte was enough), the white flying woman animation calling me 'my love' (ye gods!), the plot that turned me in an amnesiac that searches for his past; total absence of hot male joinables (sure, there was Annah and FFG for males, but females had no eye-candy to play with). In short, everything but the setting (which wasn't of the developer's creation), was bad about PS:T.

Is the Heretic Kingdoms: Inquisition somehow connected to the Kult: Heretic Kingdoms? If yes, I tried to find Kult in Canada, and they didn't have it (and US companies want to charge 25$ for shipping on a $20 game, lol!). I am not burning to play it though anyway, since it is not party-based, and from what I gathered, the dialogues were 50:50 - some where excellent, but most were boring and utilitarian.

I am actively targeting one particular type of the games: Single-player, custom protagonist, party-based (preferably with 4+ joinables at a time), dialogue-rich, romance-enabled, some sort of non-modernistic setting. And, as far as I am aware, I have Drakensang and Dragon Age coming out soon-ish in that category. (Yes, I know about Hourglass, but I've moved on to the 3D quite firmly now, plus I am not a big fan of their setting).

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:47 am

While I (and I'm prett sure I'm not alone) can't understand your problem with PS:T, I guess it's a matter of taste. You like chocolat, I like vanilla.

Both Kults are the same game. One is the US title, the other the European. If you really want to get it, I got mine from Amazon.co.uk for +/- 7£, including shipping.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:48 pm

GawainBS wrote:Ladey Dragonfly, that's my whole point: Platemail does weigh more, but it is easier to move around in than Chainmail. Chainmail hangs down from the shoulders and drags your arms with it. This is a common similar: Take a heavy sweater, and soak it in water and wear that. Now use a belt to buckle it around you waist and under your armpits. That gives a nice impression.
Not to say that you or I could jump in a suit of platemail and start prancing about. It still requires training.
I don't really get it, with that article. It's intresting, but how does it show that women can't wear as much armour as men? It just said that those new plates where optional in most regions, and probably get mandatory sometime in the future.

The article shows that heavy armor, with its weight distributed as evenly as the modern technology can possibly offer, affects mobility and is almost unbearable in hot weather.
Discussing protection in terms of AC in RPG, high dexterity will give you as much protection as heavy armor. Heavy armor negates DEX bonuses for a good reason - it restricts mobility and maneuverability. It is more realistic imo to give fem PC a lower STR, a higher DEX and a lighter armor (e.g. leather), even if she is a fighter, which is not the most interesting class anyway.

I personally prefer a rogue with high INT and DEX.

@ Domi Ash
Gawain is right, you should try Amazon. You can buy a used game just for a few bucks there.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:18 pm

Both Kults are the same game. One is the US title, the other the European. If you really want to get it, I got mine from Amazon.co.uk for +/- 7£, including shipping.

Shipping where? You see, Amazon is notorious about not posting the mailing charges upright, and I had 10$ shipping on a 1.50 $ book once added to my bill without asking and had to go to the company to cancel the payment. Amazon.ca does not carry it, and the americain one doesn't carry it for cheap (and will probably try to add a huge surcharge on shipping anyway). The local EB games has never heard of it (and they got rid of the bargain bin on PC games long time ago anyways, grr.).

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Mon May 05, 2008 3:42 pm

It's not strictly Amazon. It's second-hand. Most of those sellers are very helpful and will answer you if you mail them. The 2£ rate can apply worldwide, since I got it for an item (I think it was Kult) that shipped from the US, and I live in Belgium.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:56 am

Well, I wrote to the seller, hopefully I will get a responce and some reasonable charge.

And if I miss the party, but love the main story, I guess I can always adopt it for NWN2, since the folks say it's a small game.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Thu May 08, 2008 7:05 am

Well, no luck. Got the 'ship only within UK' reply. Plus, I think I've lost what little enthusiasm I've had for this game anyway.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Thu May 08, 2008 10:25 am

Domi_Ash wrote:Well, no luck. Got the 'ship only within UK' reply. Plus, I think I've lost what little enthusiasm I've had for this game anyway.

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried US Amazon? I recently purchased a book from a UK seller, and the shipping charge was as low as $3-4, the same as within the US.

Sidetracking, here is a small article that offers an explanation why male gamers often choose a female protagonist:

By day, Freeman Williams manages a small dental practice in suburban Houston. But on any given night, he's prowling crime-ridden streets and battling ne'er-do-wells in the video game "City of Heroes" as his virtual alter-ego: a female superhero named Robotrixie.
"I get in character voice-wise as much as my male voice will allow," explains Williams, 48, who talks with other players through the game's voice chat feature. "This has become my catharsis, my escape from the work world."
…
For many, half the fun can be in the initial character creation process, where you decide the basic look and functions of your digital persona.
Among the crucial questions that need to be addressed: Do I want to heal or dish out damage? Do I prefer green-skinned orcs or pointy-eared elves? And of course, do I want to be male or female?
For a variety of reasons, Williams isn't the only guy with a preference for female characters, according to Kathryn Wright, a psychologist in Raleigh, N.C., who consults for the Web site WomenGamers.com.
In an informal survey she conducted with 64 males, more than half said choosing a female character gave them a distinct gameplay advantage. And while a quarter said they played women characters because it added to the role-playing experience, Wright said others had a simpler explanation: visual stimulation.
"They'd rather look at a character that looks like Lara Croft than a character that looks like Rambo," she said.
....
Erica Poole, a 31-year-old legal secretary in Austin, says she's picked up a few ways to spot a male disguised as a female in online games.

"The fact that they are scantily clad is a huge clue," she said. "And often the bigger the breasts, the more likely it's a guy."

Well, that probably explains why I play male protagonists: I prefer Rambo to Lara Croft…

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Thu May 08, 2008 10:35 am

I won't deny the truth in the article, but the girls I play in games have no big breasts (Personal preference.

) and are decently armoured. Not that I eshew scant clothing, but I try to get what the character in question would wear. I don't mind naked legs, since I can imagine it would be due to mobility issues. (Compare to Roman Legionaires.) However, a cleavage a mile deep and exposed midrif is a bit too far, since it would also expose the heart, lungs and abdomen, for starters.
All in all, I don't mind the "scantly clad heroine", not at all, but I do mind it when it's the only option.
As for the help you get in MMOs if you play as a girl, that's true. I never abuse it, but I noticed I could have, if I wanted.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Thu May 08, 2008 11:52 am

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried US Amazon?

No, I am not eligible: Please note: Buyers outside the U.S. cannot purchase the following types of items via Amazon Marketplace: video games, toy and baby items, electronics, cameras and photo items, tools and hardware, kitchenware and housewares, sporting goods and outdoor equipment, software, and computers.

As I live in Canada, I am not considered domestic by US Amazon.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:53 pm

I've now started out with a female F/C/M in BG2, I had been intending doing a trio, with two characters I've never gone through the game with, Minsc and Anomen, doing the Anomen romance. But I just couldn't hack it, the first conversation with Mr Slimeball Anomen was too much, so now going solo.

How anyone, especially females, can tolerate that scumbag is beyond me, and it does make me wonder about the folks at Bioware. How come the only romanceable male in the game is a proto-typical Male Chauvanist Pig, is that a reflection on their attitudes? Did the developers at Bioware base Anomen on themselves? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, the computer gaming industry is notorious for being chauvanistic and sexist.

The types of female 'armour' typically found in fantasy games says it all really. Actually calling it armour should be actionable under the trades description act.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Fri May 09, 2008 4:06 pm

I have to confirm that Anomen is actually quite better after he is knighted. Still not the type of guy I'd fall for if I were a girl, but he was tolerable. He was arrogant still, but more in a "He's a good guy in the end, I'll put up with him"-kind of way.

On a side note: I found it annoying that any and all portraits from BGII feature people with earrings and most of them have dreadlocks or hair with lots of beads intertwined. Apart from the fact that I don't like any of those, I found the amount present quite over-done.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:14 pm

galraen wrote:I've now started out with a female F/C/M in BG2, I had been intending doing a trio, with two characters I've never gone through the game with, Minsc and Anomen, doing the Anomen romance. But I just couldn't hack it, the first conversation with Mr Slimeball Anomen was too much, so now going solo.

Anomen's bitterness and emotional instability come from what they call "troubled childhood". If the bad boy is knighted, his attitude changes, maybe because he gets +2 bonus to his wisdom.

His quest revolving around tragic family events is quite good imo. To me, the most annoying thing was Anomen's voice, not his attitude.

How anyone, especially females, can tolerate that scumbag is beyond me, and it does make me wonder about the folks at Bioware. How come the only romanceable male in the game is a proto-typical Male Chauvanist Pig, is that a reflection on their attitudes? Did the developers at Bioware base Anomen on themselves? I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, the computer gaming industry is notorious for being chauvanistic and sexist.

I guess scarceness of romanceable males reflects gaming statistics: this is boys' world.
A dark, brooding misfit knight is probably Bioware’s version of “most eligible bachelor”: Anomen, Casavir… or Carth who was kinda a brooding Jedi knight.

GawainBS wrote:On a side note: I found it annoying that any and all portraits from BGII feature people with earrings and most of them have dreadlocks or hair with lots of beads intertwined. Apart from the fact that I don't like any of those, I found the amount present quite over-done.

I agree - I find those ethnic hairdos and body piercing excessive and tasteless, in a fantasy RPG. And if you recall Nameless One, he had a similar Bad Hair Day.

GawainBS · Post by **GawainBS** » Sat May 10, 2008 3:34 am

Lady Dragonfly wrote: I agree - I find those ethnic hairdos and body piercing excessive and tasteless, in a fantasy RPG. And if you recall Nameless One, he had a similar Bad Hair Day.

It's true about TNO, but he was one character. No problem with that. No problem if it was *just* Aerie, *or* Jaheira, *or* Anomen, *or*...
Anyway, to keep it on subject, I think this might be an example of why you would play the other gender, because the first didn't have anything that suited your fancy. I'm thinking of NWN here. I hated playing human males, because all of them were broad-shouldered gorillas and there were very few heads which appealed to me. In general, there were very few heads at all that I liked. A few "oddball" choices are nice, but not 10 heads which look like they came from a punk rock festival, 5 with horns and 2 that look like they were humped by an orc. What's wrong with a girl or guy with a ponytail, single braid, an up-do hairdress, close-shaved military crop, or twin pigtails?
So, to conclude: my choice of gender is sometimes determined by the options available to them.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:09 pm

I have to say that I started to tolerate Anomen after other romanceable options for the female PC became available (via mods). I really disliked him beforehand, but as a non-romanceable he is just a jerk. As romanceable, I could never see that 'change' people keep talking about. I basically had all my talks with him before he was knighted, then he pressed me into telling him that I really, really love him while holding the sword to the throats of two innocent kids (I chose the path earlier in romance where I told him that I don't love him but will sleep with him -which he accepted against all the knightly expectations!!!)... Yeah, very knightly.

Truly, I have no idea why both Gaider and Avalonne (with Gann) feel that a female romantic interest has to come accross as an intolerable bastard to start with and presumably end up as cute and vurnerable underneath. They don't do that to the male PC romantic interests by some reason; you either like them or dislike them, but what you see is pretty much what you get.

Lady Dragonfly · Post by **Lady Dragonfly** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:38 pm

Domi_Ash wrote:I have to say that I started to tolerate Anomen after other romanceable options for the female PC became available (via mods). I really disliked him beforehand, but as a non-romanceable he is just a jerk. As romanceable, I could never see that 'change' people keep talking about. I basically had all my talks with him before he was knighted, then he pressed me into telling him that I really, really love him while holding the sword to the throats of two innocent kids (I chose the path earlier in romance where I told him that I don't love him but will sleep with him -which he accepted against all the knightly expectations!!!)... Yeah, very knightly.

After Anomen's quest is over and he is knighted, he pretty much shuts up. That is a very positive change, imo. If memory serves, he even apologizes to Keldorn.
As for "knightly" behavior, people usually entertain the notion that knights were paragons of virtue while in fact they were drunkards, cutthroats and rapists. I would say, historically, medieval nobility was comprised of fallen paladins and evil clerics.
So, Anomen and his dipsomaniac Dad are rather realistic characters.

Domi_Ash · Post by **Domi_Ash** » Thu May 15, 2008 4:46 pm

Well, Baldur's Gate is hardly a historic work. It's fantasy, and the knightly image in fantasy is romatisised, so I don't see much value in introducing gritty realism in this particular aspect. I have to say that BG1's Ajantis romance fits my expectations of a romance with a paladin much more accurately... Besides, Jaheira is not exactly a maddened knife-wielding priestess eager to perform dark and bloody rituals in the mystic groves. The Order in the FR setting and the paladins are (at least per the brochure shipping with the game) paragons of virtue.