I get the idea I overshoot the Charisma+skill requirements for dialogue options a little too easily. Part of it is the fear my investment will fall victim to poor game design. The easy-to-medium skill checks tend to become obsolete during the course of many games, unless I don't keep increasing them way into the epic levels.
How high are the toughest diplomacy, bluff and intimidate checks in MotB?
Toughest Dipl/Bluff/Intim checks in MotB?
Toughest Dipl/Bluff/Intim checks in MotB?
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
There is the walk-through..Tricky wrote:I get the idea I overshoot the Charisma+skill requirements for dialogue options a little too easily. Part of it is the fear my investment will fall victim to poor game design. The easy-to-medium skill checks tend to become obsolete during the course of many games, unless I don't keep increasing them way into the epic levels.
How high are the toughest diplomacy, bluff and intimidate checks in MotB?
But I don't remember it mattering much. Most areas where you would fail Diplomacy or Intimidate seemed to have little effect on the game, this is particularly true because with a little "farming" you can easily "make up" for any loss in experience you might have missed.
What did matter was you companion "score", which you can actually see (unlike the OC). (..and for that Sayfia and Spellcraft around 25+ vs. Gann and Lore 25+, Diplomacy 25+, Spellcraft 25+.)
I think a "net" 30 for Diplomacy worked well.. as for Intimidate, most places that needed it:
A. Either needed it really high to work, or
B. It wasn't to your advantage to have it succeed (considering XP's and items generally).
(Note that the same is true for Diplomacy in this instance.)
You have the Amulet of the Master, Finche's Finest Hat or Tragedian, as well as other items, and most of these items can be purchased near the start of the game.
Bottom-line, it really isn't worth even a skill point for *any* of the dialog skills in this game.
Damn, this is horrible. If this continues much longer I think I'm about to rebound back to Baldur's Gate again. And thus the cycle continues. Hey, maybe when I die, that will be my hell. Forever doomed to be not quite content with a single game.
Maybe I'm already dead. Scary.
Maybe I'm already dead. Scary.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
Try my "HITMAN" build through both campaigns - should be fun AND easy.Tricky wrote:Damn, this is horrible. If this continues much longer I think I'm about to rebound back to Baldur's Gate again. And thus the cycle continues. Hey, maybe when I die, that will be my hell. Forever doomed to be not quite content with a single game.
Maybe I'm already dead. Scary.
Good for good/neutral/evil characters.For just MOTB, a Drow Warlock 28/Blackguard 2 with extremely high Charisma is excellent for an "evil" character.
For just the OC a purist Favored Soul, Sorcerer, or Wizard can be a lot of fun. (..and actually a Favored Soul with FB, Warlock, Blackguard levels can be good for MOTB as well, also evil.)
As far as dialog skills go - I like to have a decent diplomacy by about character level 10-11, and I don't see a need to go beyond 15. There are however other times when intimidate and bluff can be useful - so you *could* add 7 or 8 points in for both and use modifier equipment/spells/songs to increase these skills when necessary.
It's extremely unattractive to multiclass non-humans in the OC. The XP penalty for being a Drow that has three other classes on the slide has to be huge. I wouldn't expect to come anywhere near 30 character levels.For just MOTB, a Drow Warlock 28/Blackguard 2 with extremely high Charisma is excellent for an "evil" character.
I don't know. Maybe I will take another look at this tomorrow. Then again, I already have too much.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
Its not bad, and pretty easy to work with.Tricky wrote:It's extremely unattractive to multiclass non-humans in the OC. The XP penalty for being a Drow that has three other classes on the slide has to be huge. I wouldn't expect to come anywhere near 30 character levels.
I don't know. Maybe I will take another look at this tomorrow. Then again, I already have too much.
1. "base" classes incur a penalty of 20% XP per class thats "out of level".
2. this penalty only starts when one class is *more* than one level from another base class.
3. it only continues as base classes are added and are "out of level".
4. Prestige classes do not count.
5. Favored classes do not count.
6. For humans and half-elves the higher class doesn't count.
For instance a Drow Warlock/Blackguard can have the Blackguard levels placed anywhere in the build you want and because of #4 you won't incur a penalty.
A Drow Favored Soul/Wizard can have either class placed anywhere in the build and because of #5 (Drow's favored class is Wizard) you won't incur a penalty.
A Drow Favored Soul 27/Warlock 1/ Monk 1/ Cleric 1 can have any of the classes in any particular combination and because of #2 won't incur a penalty.
Specifically with my suggestions:
A Favored Soul 20+/ Warlock 1/ FB 5/ Blackguard 2+ will not incur any penalty regardless of race because of #2 and #4.
The HITMAN with Fighter 22/Ranger 2/SD 1/FB 5 - will not incur any penalty *WITH* an Earth Gensai, but it would with a Drow. That Drow-based penalty however could effectively be negated by having your final level as a Ranger (..with that final level as Ranger as the starting point for the penalty). In other words that build, (excepting attribute limitations of other races), could in fact be built exactly as its stated with *ANY* race and really not suffer a penalty.
God dammit I only knew of 1, 5 and 6. I swear one of these days I'm going to print out the NWN2 manual, every last page of it, find however wrote it and then slap him/her/them in the face with it.1. "base" classes incur a penalty of 20% XP per class thats "out of level".
2. this penalty only starts when one class is *more* than one level from another base class.
3. it only continues as base classes are added and are "out of level".
4. Prestige classes do not count.
5. Favored classes do not count.
6. For humans and half-elves the higher class doesn't count.
Just to make sure I understand you, you mean the penalty is incurred when your character veers a two classes away from the base class? Like... I'm a fighter/thief/mage and I only get a penalty for taking on mage levels?2. this penalty only starts when one class is *more* than one level from another base class.
You mean, having more second or third class level than base class levels? Now that I think about it, I think I remember that rule.3. it only continues as base classes are added and are "out of level".
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
Tricky wrote:God dammit I only knew of 1, 5 and 6. I swear one of these days I'm going to print out the NWN2 manual, every last page of it, find however wrote it and then slap him/her/them in the face with it.
Just to make sure I understand you, you mean the penalty is incurred when your character veers a two classes away from the base class? Like... I'm a fighter/thief/mage and I only get a penalty for taking on mage levels?
You mean, having more second or third class level than base class levels? Now that I think about it, I think I remember that rule.
The penalty is incurred when you character veers two *base* class ***LEVELS*** away from another base class.
IF you have 3 base classes fighter/thief(rogue really)/mage and no favored class nor are you human or half-elf AND you are:
Fighter 5/ rogue 1/mage1 - no penalty.
Fighter 5/ rogue 2/ mage 1 - 20% penalty for that 2nd rogue level.
Fighter 5/ rogue 3/ mage 1 - the 20% penalty for that 2nd rogue level, and because its now another level beyond the mage the next rogue level is up to 40%.
Fighter 5/ rogue 4/ mage 1 - the 20% penalty for that 2nd rogue level, the 40% penalty for adding the next rogue level, then back to a 20% penalty for the final rogue level addition (because this time its within 1 level of the Fighter).
also:
Fighter 6/ rogue 2/ mage 1 - 20% penalty for that extra rogue level, 20%penalty continues for the extra Fighter level.
..adding any epic class or favored class keeps the calculation the same, for instance:
Fighter 5/ rogue 2/ mage 1/ blackguard 2 - 20% penalty for adding the 2nd level of rogue for that rogue's level.. IF
Fighter 6/ rogue 2/ mage 1/ blackguard 2 - 20% penalty continues for the fighter class.
To get to the 40% penalty all 3 classes must have a separation of at least 2 levels from each other:
The first would be a penalty unless fighter was a favored class or else if human or half-elf because then highest level is auto favored classFighter 5/ rogue 1/mage1 - no penalty.
Fighter 5/ rogue 2/ mage 1 - 20% penalty for that 2nd rogue level.
Fighter 5/ rogue 3/ mage 1 - the 20% penalty continues for the next thief level.
The second is the same as the first since rogue is 1 away from mage you don't get an extra 20%. If you are a human half elf or favored class fighter (dwarf, genasi) you have no penalty...but as with the first a drow gets a penalty
The third gets a penalty even if human/half-elf because you have 3 things seperated by 2 or more and only the highest would be favored for a human half elf. A gnome would have a 40% penalty because bard is favored class. A drow would have 20% because mage is favored and out of the calculation. A tiefling 20 because rogue is out a dwarf 20 because fighter is out.
Correct me if I am wrong...it could be my day to 'think backwards'
Right Speech has four aspects: 1. Not lying, but speaking the truth, 2. Avoiding rude and coarse words, but using gentle speech beneficial to the listener, 3. Not slandering, but promoting friendliness and unity, 4. Avoiding frivolous speech, but saying only what is appropriate and beneficial.
Claudius wrote:The first would be a penalty unless fighter was a favored class or else if human or half-elf because then highest level is auto favored class
The second is the same as the first since rogue is 1 away from mage you don't get an extra 20%. If you are a human half elf or favored class fighter (dwarf, genasi) you have no penalty...but as with the first a drow gets a penalty
The third gets a penalty even if human/half-elf because you have 3 things seperated by 2 or more and only the highest would be favored for a human half elf. A gnome would have a 40% penalty because bard is favored class. A drow would have 20% because mage is favored and out of the calculation. A tiefling 20 because rogue is out a dwarf 20 because fighter is out.
Correct me if I am wrong...it could be my day to 'think backwards'
I think you are correct. My bad.
Adding the Rogue or Mage class to the Fighter class doesn't incur the penalty, but increasing XP's after adding the class starts the penalty.
For instance:
Fighter 5/ rogue 1 = no penalty
Fighter 5/ rogue 1+ *OR* Fighter 5+/ rogue 1 = penalty.
..this would also mean that my admitidly bogus exception for any race to the HITMAN was incorrect.
Ok then, I got it. Sorry about the mixup. That's tough for Divine Grace coming in at second classlevel though. I mean, unlike NWN1 where you got it at 1st classlevel.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
But the one race that can take the best advantage of it has a favored class as a Paladin.Tricky wrote:Ok then, I got it. Sorry about the mixup. That's tough for Divine Grace coming in at second classlevel though. I mean, unlike NWN1 where you got it at 1st classlevel.
(..and note that the blackguard is a *prestige* class that gets the same thing at level 2 and also gets turn Undead, (and therefor access to Divine Might), ONE class level earlier than the Paladin).
Aasimar get the XP penalty, which means a slight loss of levels compared to a normal race, increasingly lower saves. It all kinda evens out.
I actually went and made an Aasimar Exalted Sorceress this evening with that very idea in mind. They kicked ass in NWN1, but then you got Divine Grace at 1st class level. Ergo a slow starting. And then I forgot my copy of NWN2 crashes about once every thirty minutes since the updater installed the 1.12 patch.
If what you say is true and the prestige classes don't incur a penalty, then the Blackguard is totally the way to go. Provided you can part with Cleave and Power Attack in your Sorcerer. And all that is fair and just.
I actually went and made an Aasimar Exalted Sorceress this evening with that very idea in mind. They kicked ass in NWN1, but then you got Divine Grace at 1st class level. Ergo a slow starting. And then I forgot my copy of NWN2 crashes about once every thirty minutes since the updater installed the 1.12 patch.
If what you say is true and the prestige classes don't incur a penalty, then the Blackguard is totally the way to go. Provided you can part with Cleave and Power Attack in your Sorcerer. And all that is fair and just.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
Don't get to "wrapped-up" in race vs. level. First character I played in the OC and MOTB was a Drow. Even then I ended up with about 19 and a half levels. Once that character was in MOTB it was a moot point.Tricky wrote:Aasimar get the XP penalty, which means a slight loss of levels a normal race, increasingly lower saves. It all kinda evens out.
I actually went and made an Aasimar Exalted Sorceress this evening with that very idea in mind. They kicked ass in NWN1, but then you got Divine Grace at 1st class level. Ergo slow starting. And then I forgot my copy of NWN2 crashes about once every thirty minutes since the updater installed the 1.12 patch.
If what you say is true and the prestige classes don't incur a penalty, then the Blackguard is totally the way to go. Provided you can part with Cleave and Power Attack in your Sorcerer. And all that is fair and just.
Only about character level 9-11 did the Drow seem weaker than his companions (though this has a lot to do with the particular class).
The saves have a LOT more to do with one class vs. another than one class vs. a few levels. In fact better attribute modifiers can even that out easily.
With regard to the Blackguard..
..it ALSO has an alignment that more closely matches a Warlock.
Consider a Sorcerer OR Favored Soul with 20+ levels. Assuming no Favored class or Human/Half-Elf, you can "tack-on" your one Warlock level after obtaining all of your Sorcerer OR Favored Soul levels.
That's still one Epic Charisma and free save you're missing out on by the end of the OC. Which you'd otherwise get for free at slightly higher character level. It seems like most of it balances out. Don't know much about MotB though, I did not get very for with it yet. I haven't made a character yet that I liked well enough.Don't get to "wrapped-up" in race vs. level. First character I played in the OC and MOTB was a Drow. Even then I ended up with about 19 and a half levels. Once that character was in MOTB it was a moot point.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
No epic charisma, but yes one attribute increase is missed, and a save(s) as well - for the OC.Tricky wrote:That's still one Epic Charisma and free save you're missing out on by the end of the OC. Which you'd otherwise get for free at slightly higher character level. It seems like most of it balances out. Don't know much about MotB though, I did not get very for with it yet. I haven't made a character yet that I liked well enough.
Beyond the "candy" of leveling up..
..I don't think you would really miss it unless you were hitting an even level modifier and received additional spells as a result.