RDD/WM Build

[kyle]

Hopefully people aren't sick of RDD builds here (I think everyone is on the NWN1 boards), but here's an idea that's possible with some careful planning:

Aasimar - 4 levels Paladin, 1 level Sorcerer, 10 levels Red Dragon Disciple, 5 levels Weapon Master (in that order)
No XP penalties since Paladin and the two prestige classes won't count against an Aasimar. Natural immunity to fire, resistance to cold, acid, and electricity. Natural 26 strength and 18 charisma with Paladin bonus equals high saves and huge criticals with a greatsword (esp. when combined with the Weapon Master bonuses, and possibly using the Golem's Blade later on).

Problems: Won't get that 5th level of Weapon Master (3X critical with Greatsword) without console cheating.

Any other comments on this?

[JackOfClubs]

Sounds fine. I'm not a big fan of Paladins, though, especially low level ones, but it does add to the role-playing factor for an Aasimar.

I would probably go with 3 Fighter/2 Bard for the extra feats and Weapon Specialization. Seems a fair trade for the higher saves and the immunity to fear and disease. Also, the Bard levels will allow you to put points in UseMagicDevice (if you have any left) which can come in handy. But that's just me.

[sun_facer]

Don't mind if I dig up an older thread.
Sounds like a powerful build.

But with a level cap of 20 and the fact that RDD requires 8 LORE, WM requries +7 base with lots of feats, it would be really difficult to enjoy 2 of the more powerful prestige classes to the max.

It probably has been said on several other threads. But here's 2 cents.
WM is good for...
1) +2 critical hit range!
2) x3 hit critical!
3) Max BAB
RDD is good for
1) Massive character! (+8 strength, +2 intell, +2 charisma if I am not mistaken)
2) Massive immunities! (Fire, paralysis, fear, etc)
3) Naturally high AC.

But in order to enjoy the WM, you need 7 lvls WM. To fully enjoy RDD, you need 10. All things aside, that leaves 3 lvls of something else. 1 should be bard. 2 fighter....
Impossible.

So the 10RDD/7WM build is impossible.

Moreever, the keen property does not stack with improved critical. So the WM is definitely not so attractive as it was in NWN1.
Also, you need 7 lvls of WM to get the x3 critical. By then, you would be so late in the game, it would be quite meaningless. You've almost completed most of the quests. Unlike NWN1, where I took 27 lvls of WM, it was more meaningful THROUGHOUT the game.
IMO, NWN2 is more a journey than a destination.
I suggest you leave the WM aside and think of other classes for the bard/RDD build.

Interestingly, I did 1bard->4fighters with able-learner and I realised that I could take the non-class skills EXACTLY like class skills. With the rule of 1st level, the BaRd gives 4x6 base skills at creation which is SPLENDID for conversational purposes.. BLUFF, INITImidATE and Diplomacy.
Also, perform 4 means that party members always have +1attack and +1damage for the rest of the game.
That's pretty cool. With NATURAL LEADER and this aura, it's a good start that lasts till the end of the game.

And that is not even near the RDD levels yet!

[Mz_Trixter]

not to put any other holes in this idea, but inorder to use the paladin class, it requires a lawful good char. If i remember right the sorcerer/rdd needs any nonlawful. Anyhow, i like the thought process in it. ~ ok now i just feel retarted.. its bards that req. any non-lawful ...oh well.

[Snipercon]

Moreever, the keen property does not stack with improved critical. So the WM is definitely not so attractive as it was in NWN1.

True, keen does not stack with improved critical feats, but weapon master stacks just fine (with either keen or improved crit, just not both),

[Tricky]

Keen doesn't stack with it, but it should still increase your base, multiplierless damage, right? Even if you do get a critical hit?

[shift244]

The Keen enchantment does not stack with the Improved Critical feat. Both basically double the critical threat range of the weapon, and having either one or both simply just doubles the threat range instead of tripling it like in NWN1. This is in accordance with the rules revision in D&D since NWN1 came out.

The WM ability to increase the threat range of his chosen weapon still stacks with Improved Critical/Keen. So the threat range of a WM of appropriate level using his chosen weapon will still be greater than any other fighter-isque character, all other variables being the same. Critical multiplier is altogether a different issue.

Also, Sorcerer/RDD as I know has no alignment restriction, so a Paladin/Sorcerer/RDD is valid. It's Bard that does.

[sun_facer]

Yes, the WM feats still stack with keen.

In NWN1, it was possible to achieve 13-20x3.
It was also possible (at epic levels) to have
Main hand +31/+26/+21/+16
Off hand +31/+26
For STR builds.

With haste, that is SEVEN attacks per round.
Why did I mention dual-wield?

13-20 critical range means 40% critical.
40% x 7 = 2.8 hits per round are CRITICALS.

But for NWN2,
It is not possible to achieve 13-20.
I consider myself fortunate to have 15-20.
That is 30% chance critical.
It's only 10% difference.

But considering that now dual-wielding is not advisable for StR builds,
that is 5 attacks per round. 2 less than in HOTU.
30% x 5 = 1.5 hits per round are CRITICALS.

So... easily, it's 1.3 hits less of criticals.
Considering the damage is x3 (for most bladed), that is a significant drop in power.

Maybe I am spoilt for playing a powerhouse in HOTU,
But I just find the new WM far less attractive.

With the new FB, the IMPROVED POWER ATTK,
it requires less feats to acquire and may just make a better melee char.

So... 2 smal matters (keen not stacking and lousier dual-wield) makes my version of WM less of a priority.

[Snipercon]

I'd argue that weapon master is more valuable because keen and improved critical don't stack.

Lets do some calculations using NVN2

Using a scimitar
base crit range (18-20,15%)
with improved critical (15-20,30%)
with weapon master (13-20,40%)

And with a great sword
base crit range (19-20,10%)
with improved critical (17-20,20%)
with weapon master (15-20,30%)

Finally a scythe
base crit range (20,5%)
with improved critical (19-20,10%)
with weapon master (17-20,20%)

Now the same calculations using NVN1

scimitar
base crit range (18-20,15%)
improved criticals (15-20,30%)
keen (12-20,45%)
weapon master (10-20,55%)

great sword
base crit range (19-20,10%)
improved critical (17-20,20%)
keen (15-20,30%)
weapon master (13-20,40%)

scythe
base crit range (20,5%)
improved critical (19-20,10%)
keen (18-20,15%)
weapon master (16-20,25%)

So whats all this mean? If you choose a weapon master you want to do more criticals, so how many more criticals can a weapon master deal. Lets see:

NVN2
scimitar - 33% more criticals (40%/30% - 100%)
great sword - 50% more
scythe - 100% more

NVN1
scimitar - 22% more criticals (55%/45% - 100%)
great sword - 33% more
scythe - 67% more

So its clear that the weapon master in NVN2 increases your criticals by a greater margin, making it more critical (pun intended) to certain builds. No argument that the Frenzied Bezerker may be a better option, but if the FB were in NVN1 I would say that would have been twice as good an option (because can still do ALOT of criticals anyway).

[sun_facer]

I don't quite understand your arguement.

If Keen does not stack with Improved Criticals,
the critical range is reduced.
Instead of a 13-20, it's merely a 15-20
how can 15-20 be more than 13-20?

Unless you are talking about power critical?

[Snipercon]

I'm saying that weapon master is more important to how many critical hits you do.

If you can hit for a critical 10% of the time, and weapon master adds another 10% you DOUBLE your critical hits (100% more).

If you can hit for a critical 40% of the time, and weapon master adds another 10% you do 25% more critical hits.

Because keen and improved critical doesn't stack and no one does as many critical hits, weapon master makes a bigger difference.

[sun_facer]

I see. My bad.

yes, WM ADDS MORE VALUE now.
It's still the most powerful melee class for the living baddies. No arguements there.

But the END PRODUCT is nerfed. Not as good as in NWN1. It's a lousy comparision since so many things have changed between NWN1 and NWN2.

I myself love WM types. But considering now RDD does not require ability to cast lvl3 spells. ANd the Frenzied berserkers are definitely more attractive.

And the party is A LOT BIGGER than in NWN1. WMs are good in themselves. RDDs are good in themselves. But since the party is bigger now, it's beneficial to have a mixture of classes that affect the party. Bards have their inspirational music, FB can inspire Frenzies, Pallies have their auras, mages can cast mass spells,

I used to play NWN1 alone. Never brought a single henchman on any mission.
Now, the game has evolved to this state. Party members. Puppet modes. It's nice when I know the NPCs and temporary characters BENEFIT from my main character.