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Sneak Attack & Death Attack

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Tricky
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Sneak Attack & Death Attack

Post by Tricky »

Yeah, busy busy busy. This is all for my first rogue type build ever, because I can usually only appreciate the thief experience in games such as Thief, Deus Ex or Morrowind. But as you can see from the last couple of posts I am trying to break with that.

This is about understanding Death Attack. It stacks with Sneak Attack, and you gain it at uneven levels. Which is good, because that means you do not have to lose sneak levels if you hop over from a rogue to an assassin (in my build I will actually be doing that the other way around, but hey - details).

On to the actual question. This is just about interpreting the description really.

From the Rogue description:
· Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.
Clear enough. From the Shadow Thief of Amn:
Sneak Attack: Starting at 1st level, the shadow thief gets the sneak attack ability at +1d6 damage. This is the same as the Rogue ability of the same name, and its effects stack with that ability. This ability increases by +1d6 at 3rd and 5th level.
Got it, just same damn thing. Now, from the Assassin:
· Death Attack: At 1st level, the assassin can make a special sneak attack called a death attack. This ability adds to the rogue's sneak attack ability, adding an extra 1d6 points of damage. This bonus rises to +2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 5th level, +4d6 at 7th level, and +5d6 at 9th level. If used against an opponent not already in combat, a successful Death Attack forces the victim to make a Fortitude save or become paralyzed.
It is subtle. Now, I understand that adding 1d6 to a previously gained 1d6 can be translated into a total of 2d6. But "this bonus rises to", from the Assassin quotation, does that imply that the "+2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 5th level, +4d6 at 7th level, and +5d6 at 9th level" are just the same thing as the rogue/shadowthief sneak progression? It is most definitely not 1d6 + 2d6 + 3d6 + 4d6 + 5d6 = 15d6, right?

So troublesome. That is what you get for never having played DND as a teenager. :(
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Xandax
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Post by Xandax »

It means - if I understand you correctly - that death attack is a 1d6 bonus per 2 class levels.
So at L1 you have a 1d6 bonus and at L3 a 2d6 bonus, and a 3d6 bonus at L5.
Not that you get 1d6 + 2d6 + 3d6 bonus at L5

Again - if I understood your question correct.

The wording can be "tricky" (he he), but it is not stated wrong.
It simply states that the bonus to sneak attack at L9 will be +5d6, not that you at L9 get +5d6 in bonus.
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Post by Tricky »

I see. It is misleading because death attacks gained by Assassin levels are not any more of an extra 1d6 bonus than regular additional rogue sneak attack levels are. Aside from the special effects Death Attack brings. But those effects don't particularly stack.. impressively, from what I can tell.

I decided to take fewer Assassin levels in my build because the only benefit to more Death Attack 1d6's seems to be additional rounds of paralyzation. And now I am sure I won't have to miss out on sneak attack damage.

That's why I'm taking it to eight levels, just to get the Hide From Plain Sight feat. I could just get that by adding a level of the Shadow Dancer, but that would mean I'd miss out on one of them 1d6's. :p

Aaah.. back to crackin' numbers. :laugh:
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Post by Xandax »

Remember that you only get the bonuses for "class levels", not character levels.
I don't know if I'm reading you wrong, but it looks to me like you think you might be able to get a bonus each level? (which you can't :) )
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Post by Tricky »

I'm not sure I'm following this. What's the difference between character and class levels? And what are character levels?
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Post by shift244 »

Character Levels are the total of all your Class Levels.

Eg:
A character starts at Character Level 1 and chooses a class, lets say, Fighter. So s/he now has Fighter Class Level 1.

Then, S/he gains enough XP to level up. S/he's now Character level 2, and chooses the Rogue class.

So she's now:
Character Level 2.
Fighter Class Level 1.
Rogue Class Level 1.

What Xandax was saying is that you gain benefits only from Class Levels, as each class gives benefits according to each of its levels. Some of these benefits stack, like Sneak and Death Attacks, others generally don't.
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Post by Tricky »

I get that just fine. How am I doing things wrongly though?
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Post by Xandax »

Tricky wrote:I get that just fine. How am I doing things wrongly though?
It was your wording in this statement:
This is about understanding Death Attack. It stacks with Sneak Attack, and you gain it at uneven levels. Which is good, because that means you do not have to lose sneak levels if you hop over from a rogue to an assassin (in my build I will actually be doing that the other way around, but hey - details).
which made me wonder.

Because it looked to me like you expected to get a sneak attack bonus per level of thief if you took another class at the even levels.
But it was likely just me reading your statement wrong :)
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Post by Tricky »

Well, maybe I should just write it out then. If I'm doing anything wrong, please correct me.

I seem to have created an exotic mix of classes. I got the details worked out and I could care less about the XP penalty. It trades in additional sneak attacks for extra base damage gained through feats. The [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url] does something similar, and I haven't decided yet if mine should be a STR build also.

The first five levels are Rogue/Fighter. The only goal here is to gain lots of feats, and yet maintain the important rogue skills. Also, by the fifth level I've prepared every skill requirement for the Prestige Classes I'll take later on, so from the 6th level I can invest in less crucial skills.

1. Rogue 1 (++feat)
2. Fighter 1 (++feat)
3. Rogue 2 (++feat)
4. Fighter 2 (++feat)
5. Rogue 3 (hide 8, move silent 8, intimidate 4, bluff 3 aquired)

- Four feats gained, Five as a human. One has to be wasted on 'Stealthy' for the SToA requirement.

The next four levels are Shadow Thief of Amn. This is where it gets a little tricky, because I'll have to forgo levelling up until I complete the Thieves Guild arc in Neverwinter. Goal: to get the SToA Bonus feats. Since they come from a select list of feats, now is the time to take those needed for the Weapon Master.

6. SToA 1 (++feat)
7. SToA 2 (++bonus feat)
8. SToA 3
9. SToA 4 (++feat) (++bonus feat)

- Four feats gained, 8/9 feats total. Compared to a pure L9 Fighter you only lose out on one feat, and only if you choose not to be a Human.

The rest is spend on no more than seven Weapon Master levels for increased weapon damage and critical range. I'm not going to write those out.


After that comes the part I haven't figured out yet. I can focus on Rogue-type levels for more sneak attack damage. Alternatively I can take Fighter levels for a higher BAB and access to weapon feats that have a Fighter level requirement.
Should I take the Rogue-type path, there is no harm done by taking some Assassin levels instead. Death attack stacks in the same progression and magnitude with Sneak Attack. An Assassin's gameplay options are interesting too, so it seems like a good idea. I can probably mix up all three classes a bit.

Good critical damage through higher base damage, higher base damage through more weapon feats, weapon feats through a funky class cocktail.
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Post by Tricky »

It's not working out. I'm not gaining BAB fast enough to meet some of the BAB requirements for some of the better feats I need to make this whole thing work. Looks like that kills off my entire idea. I should have paid attention to that from the start.

I just want to create something novel for MotB. But that just doesn't seem possible, does it? Too many rules. How can I ever have fun roleplaying when I can't get beyond the same, bland fighter/rogue/mage type..
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Post by Snipercon »

This should work:

Human, Dex >= 13 Int >=13

Level - Class - Feat - Skill
1 - Rogue- Dodge, Mobility - Move Silently=3 Bluff=3
2 - Fighter - Combat Expertise - Intimidate=4
3 - Rogue - Stealthy
4 - Rogue -
5 - Fighter - Spring Attack - Hide in Shadows=8
6 - SToA - Whirlwind Attack
7 - SToA - Weapon Focus
9 - Weapon Master

It's possible to mix up the first 4 feats, but the last 3 are set in stone on levels 5,6,7. You may have to spend an extra skill point for hide in shadows on a fighter level, but I am 80% sure that you can still get 8 ranks (the max for a class skill) because your character is part rogue.
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