PS:T & BG2 - Is one or the other better?

[dragon wench]

Recently I started playing Planescape: Torment again... This is my third time through the game, and like the other times before, I continue to be completely awed... The story, depth, writing and NPC development are nothing short of extraordinary.

This brings something to mind though. In my laments of how they no longer make great games, I tend to murmur PS:T and BG2 in the same breath as a comparison with what no longer is. I view these two games as occupying the same RPG benchmark, one that I highly doubt will ever be surpassed. (I imagine Fallout 1 and 2 are equal benchmarks, but I haven't played them, so that is why I haven't really mentioned them here).
BG2 and PS:T are very different games, yet they have a lot of similarities, and I usually can't say which is my favourite of the two.

So, I ask you... do you think there one of these is the better game, or not? I've asked myself this, and I'm never sure.

Over to you...

[GawainBS]

I, for one, will always proclaim PS:T as the single best CRPG, due to the depth of its storyline and characters. It not merely touched on ethical matters ( not the ' "Give the girl the cookie" or "Gauge her eyes with broken cookie and then show it to the grandma" ' stuff from other games), but acutally dug through them.
As a second strong point: it showed D&D at its pinnacle: Sigil, melting pot of everything and anything. Planescape simply IS fantasy. Not in the simplistic Elves, Dwarves, Orcs,... style, but true fantasy, where only your own imagining is the limit.
BG2 is much grander and allows for a lot more stat-juggling and class-development, but it just isn't so deep.
Mind you, BG2 is still awesome and a benchmark in RPGhistory.
I'd say: BG2 is an awesome book, but PS:T is classical literature. PS:T however, does require more patience and "brains" than BG2, since you really have to think about what you're reading and experiencing.
Still, I want to point out that BG2 is also one of my favourite games of all times. PS: T just has more of "it" than any other game.

[BlueSky]

Two different ways of making a good RPG...
while I agree with both DW and GawainBS, that PS:T is a grand story, the way you approach each game is different, having to think out your strategy and the outcome. I personally cannot put one above the other...
but do have to add that BG is in my heart as the one that "hooked" me on RPG's....

[AvatarOfLight]

BG 2, but mostly because it's what I grew up with. I really loved Planescape: Torment but I played it much later, made less of an impression that way I guess!

[GawainBS]

That's what I tried to express: they granted different kinds of enjoyment. PS:T is an experience, BG2 is an adventure. I don't know how to express it, really.
On a sidenote, I think certain games are art.

[kmonster]

Planescape: Torment was the better game for me. By far.

[GawainBS]

I think the more RPG's one has played, the more one is tempted to prefer PS:T...

[dragon wench]

I think the more RPG's one has played, the more one is tempted to prefer PS:T...

I tend to agree with this...
BG2 was the game that really and truly introduced me to CRPGs. Before that I had played a variety of adventure and puzzle oriented games such as Myst, SPQR and American McGee's Alice, or on Nintendo: Chrono Trigger and Super Mario. All of these were great games, but they weren't RPGs... BG and then BG2 were what really removed my "RPG Virginity." And it was BG2 that brought me to Game Banshee where I encountered a great group of people, many of whom became friends, with whom I began writing fan fiction. So, for me, a lot of my love for BG2 has also been a warm, fuzzy feeling of nostalgia.

Playing PST:T now though, and looking at it with more retrospect and objectivity, I'm inclined to say it is the better game of the two. But.... even so, I'm still not quite sure.
BG2 was much more of a classic quest, one that largely does take place on the exterior. PS:T is also a quest, but it is a search for "Self" and it occurs mostly on the interior. It is more subtle, complex and sophisticated, perhaps for that very reason.

[GawainBS]

To be honest, putting one of those games above the other, does the other injustice. They're both awesome beyond anything, but in different aspects.
Still, I personally enjoyed PS:T more.

[fable]

PS:T. No question. Superior plot design--I would be tempted to say it is the only RPG I've ever played whose working out of its plot was worthy of a novel. Not that PS:T is as rich as a good novel, but the plot is far, far more than simply a starvling scarecrow on which to hang a bunch of battles and goodies.

[Gilliatt]

(I imagine Fallout 1 and 2 are equal benchmarks, but I haven't played them, so that is why I haven't really mentioned them here).

I hope you have a good reason. While I enjoyed Fallout, personally I don't consider it/them as good as BG and PST.

So, I ask you... do you think there one of these is the better game, or not? I've asked myself this, and I'm never sure.

Over to you...

While it is true that PST has a better story, better dialogues and is more original, it is with BG that I had the most fun. So I'll go with BG, my favorite RPG.

[mr_sir]

I'd go for neither...for me the entire BG saga is the best, BG2 on its own is good but not complete without BG1+TotSC and ToB as well (at least in my opinion).

I might give Planescape another go soon, but I struggled getting into it at the start as it was so different to any other game I have played (not in terms of the engine used etc., just that coming from other games on the same engine I just found it really hard adjusting to the gameplay in Planescape - for example, playing for over an hour and not having one battle at all. At the time I could not get my head around that and so gave up with the game after a few hours of playing it). I love the story elements of games, love the role play elements of games, but I also enjoy the fighting side of them too. However, I've matured a bit since I last gave it a go (well got a few more gray hairs anyway lol) so maybe its worth another shot and who knows, I might end up preferring it to the BG saga

[fable]

or example, playing for over an hour and not having one battle at all.

You can have all the battles you want. Just attack zombies. The thing is, you have a choice--and then people complain that they haven't fought any battles in ages. What they mean is, they haven't been immediately attacked when they entered an area.

Another point is that your PC's stats will determine how the rest of the game plays. Create a big, dumb jock, and you'll have plenty of battles. Create a wise, smart guy, and you'll have conversational options that let you escape a lot of fighting. But there's still plenty of fighting to deal with, later in the game.

[mr_sir]

or example, playing for over an hour and not having one battle at all.

You can have all the battles you want. Just attack zombies. The thing is, you have a choice--and then people complain that they haven't fought any battles in ages. What they mean is, they haven't been immediately attacked when they entered an area.

I think that was the problem, I've never been one for just going around killing everything - I prefer to wait until I am attacked. I also almost always go for the more intelligent type characters rather than tanks in rpgs. I just found it hard I guess adjusting to not being attacked randomly like in the BG series or unexpectedly and I was used to beginnings of games where you get attacked a lot early on, such as in BG2 at the beginning. I was also used to the IWD games which contained a lot of hack and slash elements. I think next time I get bored of the games I'm currently playing, I'll reinstall PS:T and give it another go because from what everyone was saying it does sound good. When I first bought it I knew nothing about it really so I think I was expecting it to be more like BG2, and thus was disappointed, rather than just treating it like an entirely different game. This of course is no fault of the game, more the reasons why I bought it I think

[dragon wench]

I suspect I'm going to be talking more about PS:T in this thread than BG2... (and rambling at that ) Ah well... I think it is partly because the game has so many layers, and every time I play it I see/experience something new, very much like a good novel or film.

And speaking of films... I find that PS:T *feels* very much like Blade Runner (Director's Cut). Perhaps it is that both have definite noir elements and they each have a bleak, post-apocalyptic sensibility. But more than that... there's a deep, and very human, tragedy... Maybe this is why the fact that you can't select your gender never bothers me in PS:T. Usually I prefer to play female PCs, but the way in which PS:T touches the player, and asks the universal questions transcends gender; instead we are left only with our humanity... however one may choose to define it.

BG2 is a truly wonderful game, and I always have a lot of fun playing it, but it doesn't leave me thinking about the questions it asks long after turning off my computer.

@Mr.Sir,
I really urge you to give PS:T another go. The initial part does not always grab people, but chances are that if you stick with it for a bit.. you'll thank yourself

[GawainBS]

PS:T lets you wonder after a conversation if you really said the smart/good things. Also, it depicts Good & Evil not entirely in their White/Black constrast. Deeds done with the best of intentions lead to great evil, which lends the game its fantastic "drama" feel. On the other hand, actually *knowing* (to sound like Dhak'kon) that your choices do have an impact, feels, well... awesome.
Let's be honest, in BG2, despite all it's greatness, it always ends in combat, or at least mostly. PS:T always offers the option of talking your ass out of it.
Mr Sir has put his finger spot on: PS:T requires a greater degree of maturity to enjoy. (You have to be honest: some of the dialogues require some serieus thinking on an ethical/moral/emotional scale.)

[Chanak]

I've been an avid RPGer for many, many years...and I would have to say that out of all the games, settings and plots I have experienced, PS:T is by far superior to them all. There is something in that game for everyone...and the story digs deeply into the human experience in a way no other (C)RPG has. The Baldur's Gate series comes close in some ways, but in most PS:T stands alone.

The fact that it isn't riddled with involuntary hack and slash gives breathing room for a robust plot...and allows for a variety of ways to navigate through the story as your character progresses. As has been stated by others in the thread, you may certainly have all the fighting you want...or, you may opt to finesse your way through encounters, which I personally find more interesting and life-like. That's the feature of PS:T that permits the story to drill deeply into your feelings and experiences, in my opinion...the freedom to find your own way through the plot.

The greatest sorrow of it all is that Sigil is no more, and we'll never be able to experience it's weirdness again.

[GawainBS]

Rejoice, since Sigil is still there in D&D 3.5 Six pages in Planar Handbook, pp. 141-146.
In my campaign, we still have the "old" Cosmology, The Great Wheel, with Sigil at its centre and all settings (Eberron, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance,...) convulging in Sigil. It was an awesome idea to start with, so why let it slip away?