Thinking of attempting a merchant mod - input appreciated

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Reading another thread here recently got me to thinking about the general lack of balanced and useful merchant mods for Morrowind. Many are blatant cheats, others are less so, but they don't actually sell anything that might be useful to the player, which seems unrealistic to me. Coupled with this is the longstanding issue of trying to sell high-priced items.

My concept is to create a merchant (One of the playable races, not a creature) who would be located in the inn across the street from Creeper (to avoid conflicts). She, or he, would sell items useful to any level player, but they (hopefully) would not be over the top. Items such as:

*quality restore health and magicka potions
*quality clothing (no unenchanted rings or amulets)
*silver weapons and silver arrows
*lanterns and candles
*basic enchanted amulets (with charges, not constant effect) which make travel a bit more convenient, like Mark and Recall, Divine/Almsivi Intervention, water walking, water breathing and levitation
*basic scrolls
*maybe some good books, though not skill books

The merchant would have a total of 25000 gold, which I feel is reasonable, but not excessive, and s/he would purchase any item. However, as they would not be a creature, the player would not receive full value on goods, and the amount received would be dependent on disposition. I would also (if I could manage it...) make the merchant's disposition fall if any attempts were made at bribery.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is this fair?

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:15 pm

Sounds like a good idea to me

..all merchant mods I've seen out there, strike me as being cheesy.....the items for sale, are a good idea, I also like the idea of working something out on bribes. Let me know how its going.

You know me simple is better.....LOL
Loaded some house mods...the larger ones just seem to be overkill, ended up using a small Seyda Neen shack for my lower level character, although I really liked the Hiaalu stronghold mod I used in a previous game.

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:16 pm

oops double click here, sorry!

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:29 pm

Thanks Bluesky!

I have thought out my merchant NPC a bit more. She'll actually be my favourite character, an Argonian by the name of "Walks among Flowers."
Walks Aming Flowers will have a background story that will help to explain why she has the gold as well as why she is very high level. All her stats will be maxed at 100 to prevent people from trying to kill her... though hopefully players wouldn't want to eliminate the 'Golden Goose.'

Now I just have to figure out how to do this, I've deliberately kept the concept as simple as possible, because I have never modded, and I've always been a bit phobic about the CS.

And again, if other people have suggestions, I'd certainly appreciate posting them.

Ferrick · Post by **Ferrick** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:36 pm

I like the idea because I believe the merchants and the ability to sell/buy, IMO, may be the weakest part of Morrowind. Certainly I am not looking for the Monty Haul that can plague some games, but to bust your tail getting certain items, drag them back often through harrowing circumstances, and then getting a mere pintence for all your troubles is kind of defeating. Of course I am not in the least looking for full value -- no merchant could survive , but certainly more than a penny on the dollar for all your troubles is certainly fair.

Now I don't know a thing about what it takes to develop a mod, so please excuse my ignorance, but I think if this one works well perhaps you would consider additional mods of the same kind for Balmora, Seyda Neen, and other larger settlements. The reason I mention Seyda Neen is because the surrounding geography provides your newly formed character with starter dungeons and other opportunities to garner wealth before moving on to a very dangerous future. It would be nice to be able to sell at a better profit than what is currently offered.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:51 pm

Ferrick wrote:I like the idea because I believe the merchants and the ability to sell/buy, IMO, may be the weakest part of Morrowind. Certainly I am not looking for the Monty Haul that can plague some games, but to bust your tail getting certain items, drag them back often through harrowing circumstances, and then getting a mere pintence for all your troubles is kind of defeating. Of course I am not in the least looking for full value -- no merchant could survive , but certainly more than a penny on the dollar for all your troubles is certainly fair.

Now I don't know a thing about what it takes to develop a mod, so please excuse my ignorance, but I think if this one works well perhaps you would consider additional mods of the same kind for Balmora, Seyda Neen, and other larger settlements. The reason I mention Seyda Neen is because the surrounding geography provides your newly formed character with starter dungeons and other opportunities to garner wealth before moving on to a very dangerous future. It would be nice to be able to sell at a better profit than what is currently offered.

Actually it was your thread where you asked about merchant mods that inspired me to start looking at them. What I found is that the majority either give Creeper an insane amount of gold making them complete cheats, or they give a merchant lots of gold, but said merchant has essentially nothing that would be bought by the player character. From both a practical and a roleplaying point of view, this doesn't seem to make much sense.

Assuming I am able to get this project off of the ground, I might well place additional merchants into the game. Given that it would not be much more difficult to add merchants, I'm not sure if I'd include them in a first version, or if I'd put them in a subsequent version. I'm inclined towards the latter, just because of time issues and I'd want to see how well this would fly.

Also, if I am able to put this plan into motion, I'd be looking for testers, so if this interests you please let me know

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:55 pm

Would be glad to beta test if needed.

Fairly sure some others here would be willing....don't have to name any

You can alwasy spot them in the Morrowind forums...LOL

Magelord648 · Post by **Magelord648** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:15 pm

Although this seems simple enough I'll warn you now that dialouge (sp?) is very confusing to begin with. Making the NPC is easy enough but when it comes to doing the dialouge it's like another language. If you get stuck just ask and I'll be happy to help.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:20 pm

Magelord648 wrote:Although this seems simple enough I'll warn you now that dialouge (sp?) is very confusing to begin with. Making the NPC is easy enough but when it comes to doing the dialouge it's like another language. If you get stuck just ask and I'll be happy to help.

I had a hunch that dialogue could end up being a coding headache, so I really appreciate your offer, and I will very likely be asking for help.

I probably could just make her a generic NPC, but, if possible, I honestly don't want to do that, I want to give her a real "personality."

@Bluesky, if I'm able to do this, I will indeed be hitting you up for testing then, thanks!

I also thought of another item she would carry:
*Master's armorer hammers.
Again, this is a useful item that can be hard to get, but I don't really think it is a cheat. I would not, however, put picks and probes in her inventory, because that could be potentially unbalancing.
Maybe also some silverware and redware for house decoration.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:15 pm

As long as you character isn't involved in any quests (which I gather she wouldn't be) the dialogue shouldn't give you too many problems.

Don;t worry about the amount of cash you give her, you can (as I'm sure you already know) get decent value for your items already, by taking valuable items in the shopkeeper's inventory in part payment. Then waiting for 24 hours and selling them back. So you can't 'unbalance' the game, just make the process simpler.

'I would also (if I could manage it...) make the merchant's disposition fall if any attempts were made at bribery.' I don't believe this is possible, ironically, if you were creating a creature rather than an NPC it wouldn't be an issue, as creatures can't be persuaded/bribed.

In case you weren't aware of it any items in your NPC's inventory that has a positive number are finite, e.g. if she has 5 Silver Short Swords, once all five have been sold she won't replenish. On the other hand negative numbers replenish, so if she has -5 Silver Short Swords, then she will have 5 or more every time she's bartered with (if the PC sells her one, then she'll have 6, sells her 2 she'll have 7 etc.). Nalcarya of White Haven for example has -10 Kwama Cuttle, and I'm sure you know where that leads.:laugh:

Apologies if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:32 pm

galraen wrote:As long as you character isn't involved in any quests (which I gather she wouldn't be) the dialogue shouldn't give you too many problems.

Don;t worry about the amount of cash you give her, you can (as I'm sure you already know) get decent value for your items already, by taking valuable items in the shopkeeper's inventory in part payment. Then waiting for 24 hours and selling them back. So you can't 'unbalance' the game, just make the process simpler.

'I would also (if I could manage it...) make the merchant's disposition fall if any attempts were made at bribery.' I don't believe this is possible, ironically, if you were creating a creature rather than an NPC it wouldn't be an issue, as creatures can't be persuaded/bribed.

In case you weren't aware of it any items in your NPC's inventory that has a positive number are finite, e.g. if she has 5 Silver Short Swords, once all five have been sold she won't replenish. On the other hand negative numbers replenish, so if she has -5 Silver Short Swords, then she will have 5 or more every time she's bartered with (if the PC sells her one, then she'll have 6, sells her 2 she'll have 7 etc.). Nalcarya of White Haven for example has -10 Kwama Cuttle, and I'm sure you know where that leads.:laugh:

Apologies if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs.

lol, I have no intention of involving her in any quests... that would be well beyond my abilities.. :speech:
As it stands, I'm not sure if I can even pull this off

However, she likely will make reference to certain characters in the game... :devil:

Well... I do recall that Emma's Lokken NPCs/companions do not respond well to bribery... Hmmm.. something I need to look into.

*laughs* I have never done more than look up item and NPC IDs in the construction set, so I'm a total neophyte when it comes to anything like this. Hence, any and all tips and information are very helpful, lol!

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:22 pm

Doh, call me Homer!

Of course it can be done, well you can modify disposition when a bribe attempt is made anyway.

I checked out the Witch Girl mod (fantastic mod BTW, Emma really is an ace modder). So, load TRIB_witchgirladvent1.esp in the construction set, find 1AA_Morgana in the NPC tab. Select Dialogue; select the Persuasion tab.

You'll see an asterisk alongside Bribe success and Bribe Fail (the asterisk indicates that something has been modified by the current mod). If you select them you'll see that Emma has inserted a line at the top, and in the 'Result' box at the bottom you'll see:

Goodbye
ModDisposition -30
Cast "AA_Morgana_curse_health" player

Goodbye terminates the conversation, her disposition is reduced by 30 (which in the case of a merchant adversly affects prices of course), and she cast a spell on the PC. As the program reads top line first it'll never get to any of the other responces.

So, you can do the same for your NPC. I'll now go and bang my head against the wall.

PS You'll notice if you check the mod, that Emma has named all her modifications starting with 1 or AA, this ensures that they will always appear at the top of the list, making finding them a lot easier, good idea, using undescore does that as well, but can have wierd affects on the game, bad idea.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:18 am

Nice idea DW

I'm more than happy to help testing if needed

Oh, and just an idea, but what about adding some lockpicks and/or probes to sale? It's at times very frustrating to try to find merchant who sells those and which is also willing to even trade with you.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:19 am

Kipi wrote:Nice idea DW
I'm more than happy to help testing if needed

Oh, and just an idea, but what about adding some lockpicks and/or probes to sale? It's at times very frustrating to try to find merchant who sells those and which is also willing to even trade with you.

Cheers! I'll definitely take you up on the offer of testing when (if

) I get there. I was looking at modding tutorials last night, and it doesn't appear too bad, but no matter what it is, the theory is always different to the practice.

I was considering lockpicks.. but I'm not entirely sure, since I'm very conscious of keeping this balanced. So.. if I did, they wouldn't be any higher level than Journeyman's.

Which brings me to another point, what do people think of the items for sale I have mentioned so far, do they seem reasonable? I want my merchant to be selling goods that will offer something helpful to most players, but I don't want her selling anything overpowered.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:32 am

How much would the merchant have those restore health and restore mana potions? Especially mana potions may bring some unbalanced effects if there are too many of those to be bought.

Ferrick · Post by **Ferrick** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:55 am

dragon wench wrote:Cheers! I'll definitely take you up on the offer of testing when (if ) I get there. I was looking at modding tutorials last night, and it doesn't appear too bad, but no matter what it is, the theory is always different to the practice.

I was considering lockpicks.. but I'm not entirely sure, since I'm very conscious of keeping this balanced. So.. if I did, they wouldn't be any higher level than Journeyman's.
Which brings me to another point, what do people think of the items for sale I have mentioned so far, do they seem reasonable? I want my merchant to be selling goods that will offer something helpful to most players, but I don't want her selling anything overpowered.

Well one the major gripes about the merchants in the game, with just 2 exceptions, is how little they truly have to offer the PC by way of useful items. I think if you make this shop balanced in that a) there is not an over-abundance but b) it has a reasonble time to restock, I think that would be good for the game.

Who knows, if it catches on you just might end up having the first chain store in all of Vvardenfell.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:01 am

Kipi wrote:How much would the merchant have those restore health and restore mana potions? Especially mana potions may bring some unbalanced effects if there are too many of those to be bought.

This is something I have been considering. I think I would give her 1 quality restore health potion, and 1 quality restore magicka potion. Though this would also depend on if I made them restocking or not.
Maybe I'd also give her some standard potions, since the Mage and Fighter guilds have those for free anyway.
Another thing I might do is put some alchemy ingredients in her inventory that combine to make: restore health, water walking, levitation and water breathing. I don't think this would be over the top, because you need a good Alchemy skill in order to produce decent potions. Plus, it would fit with the enchanted amulets and rings she'd be selling.

@Ferrick, lol!

Gee... I can see it now.. "Vvardenfell Convenience Shops.... Open 24/7."
Oh wait.... they are all open 24 hours a day, I'll have to think of a better tagline

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:14 am

How's the Gull's Roost for a name......LOL:laugh:
Place it in a central location, or as near to a central location as possible.
That way you would not have to place several around the map, more chance of conflicts.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:18 pm

BlueSky wrote:How's the Gull's Roost for a name......LOL:laugh:
Place it in a central location, or as near to a central location as possible.
That way you would not have to place several around the map, more chance of conflicts.

LMAO!

You know..that's not a bad idea.
Originally, precisely because of the conflict issue, I had considered not creating a building or anything for her at all (not to mention that just creating an NPC will be challenging enough

), but I'll give it some thought.

If I did build an actual shop for her, or maybe a simple stall even, I might place it at Fort Moonmoth. It's easy teleporting or jogging distance to Balmora, but it avoids the mass of Balmora conflicts.
Fort Buckmoth would be another possibility.

BlueSky · Post by **BlueSky** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:07 pm

I've had some conflicts with house mods...tried one this weekend, of course it was after some textures mods....so Kahleigh's Retreat in Caldera was floating in front, and sunk into the hills in the back...oh well.

But like you mentioned not too many mods change things around the Forts....
Keep it up....
I've been playing with the construction kit, but nothing to share yet...