Creating an SoU or HotU sorc

[fable]

Suggestions needed. Bear in mind, this is for HotU, so the low level weaknesses won't be a problem. What progression would you propose? What skills, what feats? If I were interested in Persuasion, how far should I take it to remain effective?

[mr_sir]

When I play sorceror I like to level up to level 10 sorceror then alternate with red dragon disciple after that until I have 10 level of RDD and 20 levels of sorceror. I usually have charisma as high as possible, and low strength (the RDD levels counter this so you can carry more stuff - i never use melee as a sorceror). I usually take persuade up to about 30ish, although you could probably get away with it being lower with high charisma. I also take the pixie familiar so you don't have to worry about locks and traps.

Spellcraft is a good skill to have as it gives increased spell resistance, and I also like tumble so you have less attacks of opportunity if you move out of the way when enemies get too close. I also quite like Lore, although if you take Deekin as a henchman he can identify stuff for you.

As for feats, I usually take combat casting, spell penetration, greater spell penetration and then spell focus in the schools of magic I use most - I usually take it in necromancy as I like the necromancy spells (especially the higher level ones). I also like the feats that increase the power of the spells (I can't remember what they are called) - the silent spell ones are a bit pointless though as hardly any enemies try to silence you.

[fable]

Don't the RDD levels cut back on your power as a sorc, in those spells that are level-dependent? And do you miss out on some sorc HLAs?

[mr_sir]

Yeah, if you want the high level sorceror spells and the epic spells/feats then its best to go as a pure sorceror. I find that a pure sorceror can become very over powered though, even on the harder difficulties, as the level 8 or 9 spells (such as wail of the banshee) kill practically everything instantly if you focus your sorceror so it maximises his/her spellcasting abilities and spellcasting stats.

[fable]

Hmmm...well worth keeping in mind. Though to be truthful, it would be refreshing to have a strong pure spellcaster, since in most RPGs I've played, pure spellcasters, even at high levels, tend to get blown over by moderate winds.

[mr_sir]

One thing I have found from playing Neverwinter Nights as various classes is that the spellcasters are very weak early on but are by far the most powerful (in my opinion anyway) once you get a few levels. By combining defensive spells with offensive spells and wearing spellcaster specific items and stat boosting items, they can become practically untouchable. Also the higher level spells that remove enemy spellcasters' defenses are quite powerful in Neverwinter Nights. I found wizards are not quite as powerful as they have less spells to cast without resting (although they do have the advantage of being able to change spells everytime they rest so they have a wider selection to choose from) but sorcerors can become insanely powerful if the build has a bit of thought put into it I love playing sorcerors just because it is a nice feeling to know that you are a truly powerful mage type character, rather than just a punchbag for the enemy melee fighters lol

[fable]

But again, you mention sorc builds that can become insanely powerful. By that, I assume you mean simply sticking to the class, and choosing specific HLAs, correct? Assuming you start with SoU or HotU, there's no reason to dilute the class with a level of barbarian, is there?

[mr_sir]

I've never found the need to dilute the build with any other class. I sometimes use prestige classes for a bit of variation or to try them out though. Even in SoU, early on you can use henchman or summons to make up for the sorcerors weaknesses. Once you get a few levels though, you will get access to spells like stoneskin that will protect you while you cast your spells. As long as you use a combination of buffing spells and offensive spells, there is no reason to use another class at all. To make them so they are really powerful, you just need to make your attributes so they are focussed on the attributes most useful for a sorceror at the expense of things like strength and to select feats such as combat casting and spell penetration. With these you will be able to get past most enemy defenses with minimal spell failure. I also tend to have quite low constitution (usually around 12) in favour of dexterity (for the boost in AC and reflex saves etc.) as once you have things like stoneskin and combat casting you will rarely have to to worry about getting spell failures due to being hit in combat. I always max out charisma and wear any charisma boosting items I find as this will maximise the number of spells you can cast between resting. The maximise and empower spell feats etc. are good as well if you go pure sorceror as you will get to high enough levels to make them worthwhile. A maximised magic missile is very effective, as are other maximised spells and empowered magic missiles etc. (as they do more damage and once you get to a high enough level to use these feats you will be able to cast several magic missiles at once, each with the increased damage).

The only time I managed to make a weak sorceror is when I multiclassed with fighter and rogue as the sorceror struggled to get to a high enough level to be able to make good use of his abilities.

[fable]

Pretty much as I figured. I suspect I'll star a run through either SoU or SoU and HotU with a sorc first, and if I find it too easy, restart with some other class or a prestige combination like sorc/RDD.

Of course, they've hamstrung the game with bad companion AI, so I may not find it all that easy to play, after all.

[Xandax]

<snip>
Of course, they've hamstrung the game with bad companion AI, so I may not find it all that easy to play, after all.

Use meele henchmen - they are by far the best in terms of AI (Oh, and take Deekin along as well, simply for the fun of it).


As for sorcerer builds, I'd never personally take RDD as a sorcerer. RDD is a more meele orientated prestige class and in my view - mostly a fluff class (Oh, I can get wings ... yah) and I do not think the bonuses goes well with a spell caster - extra hitpoints? Yah.

Sorcerers can become quite powerfull, however that goes - especially in HOTU - for any class, because other classes can augmentate with armor and enchanted weapons (you can get some serious enchantments on your weapon in HOTU). A sorcerers powers start to show once they get access to L8 and L9 spells. And it shines with the fact you do not need to memorize the spells which in NwN is a much larger advantage then in for instance BG.

When I played sorcerer, I normally took some lowish strenght, around 16 dexterity for ranged weapon (crossbow) and Armor Class, and around 15 charisma. After that I pumped every bonus point into charisma.

For persuading, you do not need many points in that skill tree as your charisma bonus will augment it as well, so I'd personally stop around 5 and then only add spare points into it.
The good ones to remember is tumble (although cross class) and Spellcraft (for bonus with saves). Concentration is also nice to have.
However, the weakness and "hard point" of the sorcerer is limited skillpoints due to a lower then wizard intelligence. (I normally had around 12 or 14 intelligence for the skillpoints alone).

Anyways - twas my little input. Been a long time since I've played NwN, perhas I should run through it again after my current BG:ToB spree.

[fable]

Would you all recommend a half-elf, or a human sorc, and why?

[Xandax]

I'd choose a human based solely on the skill and feat bonus, and no multi class restrictions. But race is based much on preference and I always prefere human as my character

[fable]

Use meele henchmen - they are by far the best in terms of AI (Oh, and take Deekin along as well, simply for the fun of it).

Yes, others have mentioned him, as well. I think he's a shoo-in for my run-through. Are there any druid henchmen? And if not, whom else would you recommend for taking along with a sorc PC?

As for sorcerer builds, I'd never personally take RDD as a sorcerer. RDD is a more meele orientated prestige class and in my view - mostly a fluff class (Oh, I can get wings ... yah) and I do not think the bonuses goes well with a spell caster - extra hitpoints? Yah.

You mean, the notion of endless fanbois proudly stating that their PCs have non-working wings doesn't send a thrill through your heart? Cynics, the pair of us.

Sorcerers can become quite powerfull, however that goes - especially in HOTU - for any class, because other classes can augmentate with armor and enchanted weapons (you can get some serious enchantments on your weapon in HOTU). A sorcerers powers start to show once they get access to L8 and L9 spells. And it shines with the fact you do not need to memorize the spells which in NwN is a much larger advantage then in for instance BG.

I think you mean BG1, because you could play a sorc in BG2, and never bother memorizing spells.

When I played sorcerer, I normally took some lowish strenght, around 16 dexterity for ranged weapon (crossbow) and Armor Class, and around 15 charisma. After that I pumped every bonus point into charisma.

How far did you take your charisma? And do you get any additional bonus beyond 20? Doesn't spell save improve?

However, the weakness and "hard point" of the sorcerer is limited skillpoints due to a lower then wizard intelligence. (I normally had around 12 or 14 intelligence for the skillpoints alone).

Is this a good reason to put points into Intelligence in the initial build, you think?

[Noober]

While its a bit old, this build should still be a good guide: Neverwinter Nights: Epic Character Builds - The Exalted Sorceress

Basically Sorcs can tear through anything due to metamagic + imbalanced spells (Isaac's, Firebrand assuming they haven't fixed them). The only troubles you should have are certain immunities (remember to take an good acid spell to finish off the last boss!).

[Xandax]

Yes, others have mentioned him, as well. I think he's a shoo-in for my run-through. Are there any druid henchmen? And if not, whom else would you recommend for taking along with a sorc PC?

No druid henchmens.
You can only have multiple henchmen in HotU (IIRC, got some memory loss regarding Deekin in SoU, allowing to have 2), and I'd always - except for Deekin purely for the fun-factor - choose meele henchmens, simply because I do not trust the spellcasting AI.

You mean, the notion of endless fanbois proudly stating that their PCs have non-working wings doesn't send a thrill through your heart? Cynics, the pair of us.

Something along that line.

I think you mean BG1, because you could play a sorc in BG2, and never bother memorizing spells.

I do mean BG2. In BG2 the advantage of being able to cast spells on the fly withouth memorizing them seemed - to me - less then what it does in NwN.
In BG2 magic was underdone in my view - mages were mostly dispellers and debuffers. Also because of a party up to 6 you could specialize your characters much more and still be able to handle situations withouth changing tactics much.
In NwN - I feel magic has much more power and because you are more limited with choices due to party-size, the ability to be able to cast "on the fly" is much more important.
In my view and experience.

How far did you take your charisma? And do you get any additional bonus beyond 20? Doesn't spell save improve?

I assigned every bonus point into the charisma, and you get 1 bonus point per 4 levels. Most would reach L26-28 through HoTU without replaying multiple times, so I ended up with a base around 20-22ish. Just always remember you get no bonuses for odd attribute scores, but only even.

So an attribute of 9 is no better then one of 8. The only reason I generally tend to start with 1 odd (main) attribute score is due solely to this bonus system. If I calculate I'll get an odd number of bonus points (seeing as the level cap was 20 to begin with) having one odd score of 15 made more sense then many other choices.
This is due to the weighted point buy system at character creation. I can't remember the excat rules, but I belive you need 2 points to move an attribute score from 14 to 15 and to 16 and you need 3 points to move onwards to 17 and again to 18 ... or something along that line - however when leveling up, you only need one bonus point to go to increase your attribute score.
So it makes much more mathematical sense to not go higher then 16 at gamecreation, unless you want to min/max, and leaving the one odd score to give you the additional bonus at your first bonus point.
If needed, I can calculate (when I get home) my normal, run-of-the-mill starting stats for my sorcerers. They were always rather "balanced" statwise, so no not much min/maxing from me, other then 8 strenght because - well, who care's about that when you do not meele

Is this a good reason to put points into Intelligence in the initial build, you think?

I always put 12 or 14 into intelligence from start to get the maximum amount of skillpoints due to this. I do not increase it futher after that - unless playing wizard. (I hate dumb characters )

[fable]

I would be interested to see what your typical sorc stats were, Xandax. Thanks.

[Fiberfar]

Hm.... I think you'd be able to get through HotU with only 10-15 in persuade. At least I did, and my bonus to it was 1

[fable]

Hm.... I think you'd be able to get through HotU with only 10-15 in persuade. At least I did, and my bonus to it was 1

What was your charisma?

[fable]

While its a bit old, this build should still be a good guide: Neverwinter Nights: Epic Character Builds - The Exalted Sorceress

Cor blimey, that's one powerful sorc. Does just one additional level of paladin give a sorc inherent Divine Grace? Because that in itself comes across as pretty cheesy.

[dragon wench]

You might also want to check out the pertinent [url="http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/188666.html"]Game Faqs Guides[/url] for inspiration.

I find they are helpful for a rundown on all the feats etc. since choosing can sometimes be a bit overwhelming.