The following is only my opinion, and it's not meant to offense anyone...
What does the religion have to do with the legalization of prostitution? Of course, most of modern laws in many countries are based on religious believes and morals, but shoudl every law consult with the religion? And especially with basically with one religion only? This is what I don't like in todays way, every new law must be linked to religion and the thoughts of religioust people. The same thing has happened here Finland also lately, and I don't understand the reason of it. At least here the church and state are separated, so why should lawmakers ask the opinions of church about every detail? If we want to multiculture state where religion is not forced, then laws should also be either made without taking account religion, or then take account EVERY religion in that state.
Prostitution: Legal or Illegal? Absolutely NO SPAM
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snoopyofour
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Well, in America we try to achieve separation of church and state but it rarely works out this way. People are still dictated by their morals which usually come from their religion and Christianity and its morals simply have the majority in America. But I don't think the debate on prostitution is primarily about religion, I think its about human rights.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Well, in America we try to achieve separation of church and state but it rarely works out this way. People are still dictated by their morals which usually come from their religion and Christianity and its morals simply have the majority in America. But I don't think the debate on prostitution is primarily about religion, I think its about human rights.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and because of that, I thinkg religion should not be included to this discussion in any way, like in any other law-discussion neither.
Yes, and because of that, I thinkg religion should not be included to this discussion in any way, like in any other law-discussion neither.
"As we all know, holy men were born during Christmas...
Like mr. Holopainen over there!"
- Marco Hietala, the bass player of Nightwish
Like mr. Holopainen over there!"
- Marco Hietala, the bass player of Nightwish
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Damuna_Nova
- Posts: 3256
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[QUOTE=Kipi]Yes, and because of that, I thinkg religion should not be included to this discussion in any way, like in any other law-discussion neither.[/QUOTE]
If my beliefs (be they based on religion or not) impact my opinion on this matter then they have every right to be part of the discussion. How else would I be able to explain or justify my view?
If my beliefs (be they based on religion or not) impact my opinion on this matter then they have every right to be part of the discussion. How else would I be able to explain or justify my view?
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snoopyofour
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@Darzog, that's absolutely true but I think that we should try to find a solution to this that doesn't hinge on religion. Otherwise we will inevitably alienate everyone who either has a different religion or no religion.
When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Damuna_Nova
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]@Darzog, that's absolutely true but I think that we should try to find a solution to this that doesn't hinge on religion. Otherwise we will inevitably alienate everyone who either has a different religion or no religion.[/QUOTE]
Or practises a different form of that religion or that religion at a different extreme.
Or practises a different form of that religion or that religion at a different extreme.
Well I don't think it's as bleak as that. As I commented during my first post in here, I am morally against prostitution partially based on my faith. But I still think it should be legal because I recognize that my moral compass should not dictate the laws of the land (if they did pre-marital sex and abortions would also be illegal).
I think that religion can be part of a discussion without it dominating the discussion.
I think that religion can be part of a discussion without it dominating the discussion.
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Damuna_Nova
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What do you think of prostitution as a means of experimentation?
Most people have fantasies that they wouldn't be able to share because of the emotional attachment.
As prostitution is strictly business (well, sort of), then the person doesn't have to worry about being judged or whatnot. The prostitute wants to get paid so they'll probably go along with it if it's worth the pay.
Though they may not get the added benefit of having a fantasy realised with someone whom they have an emotional attachment to, they will have experienced their fantasy, and decided whether they actually liked it or not.
The person might then feel more confident about approaching this same fantasy with someone who they are involved with. If not, then they can at least put it behind them.
Most people have fantasies that they wouldn't be able to share because of the emotional attachment.
As prostitution is strictly business (well, sort of), then the person doesn't have to worry about being judged or whatnot. The prostitute wants to get paid so they'll probably go along with it if it's worth the pay.
Though they may not get the added benefit of having a fantasy realised with someone whom they have an emotional attachment to, they will have experienced their fantasy, and decided whether they actually liked it or not.
The person might then feel more confident about approaching this same fantasy with someone who they are involved with. If not, then they can at least put it behind them.
Sorry, I think prostitution in any form is wrong (although I do concede the hypocracy of the shaded investment in courting vs. the direct investment in prostitution).
But the key here is that I have no desire to force othes to my beliefs. Prostitution does not cause any direct harm to others (not counting the harm it can do to a couple if one partner is not in agreement about the other partner using a prostitute's services) so I have no objection to it being legal. If someone wants to talk about my beliefs, I am more than willing; but I will not force my beliefs on someone else, I will not ridicule someone for having beliefs different than mine, I will not condemn or judge someone else for their beliefs. I have mine, you can have yours and if we don't agree there's nothing wrong with that.
But the key here is that I have no desire to force othes to my beliefs. Prostitution does not cause any direct harm to others (not counting the harm it can do to a couple if one partner is not in agreement about the other partner using a prostitute's services) so I have no objection to it being legal. If someone wants to talk about my beliefs, I am more than willing; but I will not force my beliefs on someone else, I will not ridicule someone for having beliefs different than mine, I will not condemn or judge someone else for their beliefs. I have mine, you can have yours and if we don't agree there's nothing wrong with that.
I added NO SPAM to the title of this thread for a reason: I do not want to see this conversation degrade, spin out of control, and eventually die due to nonsense being posted in it. When it dies, I would prefer it to be because meaningful input has been exhausted. Thanks to those who respect that.
As a response to the discussion developing regarding religion: that has no place in this discussion, I think, beyond a simple mention of church and state separation, which does figure into this subject to a degree. It is virtually impossible to conduct reasonable discourse for very long on the topic of religious beliefs, since everyone has their own and they are often mutually exclusive of one another. That's partially the point behind the separation of church and state, as it technically favors no single religion over another. It works fine in theory, but is very difficult to maintain in reality. It's a process, not an end product. The goal is to develop laws which do not inherently favor the doctrines of a particular religion whenever possible. In the case of the illegality of prostitution, and laws similar to it (such as Blue Laws): a compelling case exists which suggest these laws are derived directly from the Christian bible. I have yet to see anything that convinces me otherwise.
Assuming that prostitution is degrading to a person who engages in it willingly is a stretch, to say the least. It might be degrading to them in your opinion. If they do not find it degrading to themselves, then it is not. They should not have the force of law binding them to the morals of others. It is also assuming much to pin the same sort of stigma on a person who dances professionally at certain kinds of establishments, which is not unlike the activity of prostitution, just in a different form. That might not meet your personal standards of decency either, but to others, it is not a concern. That is the point here. They are free to do what they wish to do with what is rightfully theirs...in this case, their own bodies...within the confines of a legal system which seeks to preserve the ability of all to pursue certain inalienable rights. What they are doing does not infringe on anyone's right to pursue happiness in this country whatsoever. These opinions, however, stand in the way of them pursuing their right to happiness.
Not all prostitutes are women...that activity is not limited to the female gender alone. As was stated earlier in this thread, a growing number of prostitutes are male. Some prostitutes do what they do willingly, while others feel like they have no choice. Rather than being a commentary on that activity itself, it's really a conviction of our society. The criminal subculture exists because there is a rich opportunity present. I think it's patently impossible to forever wipe it out, but there are many things we could do to change the environment of the inner cities where most of this kind of activity takes place.
@Darzog: I certainly respect your opinions regarding prostitution. Have you ever stopped to consider that in some way, shape or form, we all constantly engage in the act of selling ourselves to others? The most obvious form of this can be seen in the "mainstream" entertainment industry, where physical attributes of actors and actresses reign supreme. Here and there you will find the occasional oddball - take Morgan Freeman, for instance - but the norm conforms to physical images deemed attractive by the public. Listening to people at work, and amongst my friends and family, the average person seems to want to watch a movie primarily due to the presence of an attractive actor or actress present in the film.
We sell ourselves to win friends, jobs, and the esteem of our peers. Everyone finds meaning and worth in the successful selling of themselves in one way or another. What's acceptable to each one of us will differ from individual to individual...even amongst adherents of what is supposed to be the same philosophy, religion, etc. Just food for thought.
As a response to the discussion developing regarding religion: that has no place in this discussion, I think, beyond a simple mention of church and state separation, which does figure into this subject to a degree. It is virtually impossible to conduct reasonable discourse for very long on the topic of religious beliefs, since everyone has their own and they are often mutually exclusive of one another. That's partially the point behind the separation of church and state, as it technically favors no single religion over another. It works fine in theory, but is very difficult to maintain in reality. It's a process, not an end product. The goal is to develop laws which do not inherently favor the doctrines of a particular religion whenever possible. In the case of the illegality of prostitution, and laws similar to it (such as Blue Laws): a compelling case exists which suggest these laws are derived directly from the Christian bible. I have yet to see anything that convinces me otherwise.
Assuming that prostitution is degrading to a person who engages in it willingly is a stretch, to say the least. It might be degrading to them in your opinion. If they do not find it degrading to themselves, then it is not. They should not have the force of law binding them to the morals of others. It is also assuming much to pin the same sort of stigma on a person who dances professionally at certain kinds of establishments, which is not unlike the activity of prostitution, just in a different form. That might not meet your personal standards of decency either, but to others, it is not a concern. That is the point here. They are free to do what they wish to do with what is rightfully theirs...in this case, their own bodies...within the confines of a legal system which seeks to preserve the ability of all to pursue certain inalienable rights. What they are doing does not infringe on anyone's right to pursue happiness in this country whatsoever. These opinions, however, stand in the way of them pursuing their right to happiness.
Not all prostitutes are women...that activity is not limited to the female gender alone. As was stated earlier in this thread, a growing number of prostitutes are male. Some prostitutes do what they do willingly, while others feel like they have no choice. Rather than being a commentary on that activity itself, it's really a conviction of our society. The criminal subculture exists because there is a rich opportunity present. I think it's patently impossible to forever wipe it out, but there are many things we could do to change the environment of the inner cities where most of this kind of activity takes place.
@Darzog: I certainly respect your opinions regarding prostitution. Have you ever stopped to consider that in some way, shape or form, we all constantly engage in the act of selling ourselves to others? The most obvious form of this can be seen in the "mainstream" entertainment industry, where physical attributes of actors and actresses reign supreme. Here and there you will find the occasional oddball - take Morgan Freeman, for instance - but the norm conforms to physical images deemed attractive by the public. Listening to people at work, and amongst my friends and family, the average person seems to want to watch a movie primarily due to the presence of an attractive actor or actress present in the film.
We sell ourselves to win friends, jobs, and the esteem of our peers. Everyone finds meaning and worth in the successful selling of themselves in one way or another. What's acceptable to each one of us will differ from individual to individual...even amongst adherents of what is supposed to be the same philosophy, religion, etc. Just food for thought.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
-[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
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Chimaera182
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I have to admit to being slightly annoyed that everyone kept saying "her" and "she" when referring to prostitutes, which is why I mentioned that women aren't the only prostitutes. And, to be perfectly honest, if I lost some weight, I would consider doing it myself. And I can assure you, I would not find it degrading in the slightest.
One has to wonder why people feel it necessary to get their dander up on issues like this. Who gave them permission to decide what's best for everyone? If a person chooses to turn tricks to make some extra money, does that make him/her a bad person? What if that person--this is an unlikely scenario, but let's go prostitute with a heart of gold--was raising money for charity? Or what if a man or woman turned to prostitution as a last-ditch effort to pay for their child's surgery? Does this make them bad people? If they had tried other options to raise the money and none of them worked, and they began turning tricks to raise that money for their child's operation, would you rather they didn't prostitute themselves and let their child die?
And I can assure you, I would not find it degrading in the slightest. One has to wonder why people feel it necessary to get their dander up on issues like this. Who gave them permission to decide what's best for everyone? If a person chooses to turn tricks to make some extra money, does that make him/her a bad person? What if that person--this is an unlikely scenario, but let's go prostitute with a heart of gold--was raising money for charity? Or what if a man or woman turned to prostitution as a last-ditch effort to pay for their child's surgery? Does this make them bad people? If they had tried other options to raise the money and none of them worked, and they began turning tricks to raise that money for their child's operation, would you rather they didn't prostitute themselves and let their child die?
General: "Those aren't ideas; those are special effects."
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Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
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dj_venom
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I think a few people are missing what Darzog and I intended with our posts. We are saying it should be legalised, because we don't want to force our personal beliefs on others. But we aren't say we think it is proper behaviour.
@Chanak's point about selling yourself: In my opinion, selling sex is the biggest thing you can sell. It's one thing to get up there and parade around in your underwear - or less, but it's another to actually give a piece of yourself away.
But as I continue to say, I dislike the idea immensely, but I'm not one to force my viewpoint on others.
And regarding religion, I wasn't trying to make a point about my religion or anything. I was just saying, probably part of the reason I am against prostitution is because of my upbringing, which had that as a part of it. Religion does have no place in this discussion, as I am well aware, I was just trying to provide a further insight into why I was taking that particular stance.
@Chanak's point about selling yourself: In my opinion, selling sex is the biggest thing you can sell. It's one thing to get up there and parade around in your underwear - or less, but it's another to actually give a piece of yourself away.
But as I continue to say, I dislike the idea immensely, but I'm not one to force my viewpoint on others.
And regarding religion, I wasn't trying to make a point about my religion or anything. I was just saying, probably part of the reason I am against prostitution is because of my upbringing, which had that as a part of it. Religion does have no place in this discussion, as I am well aware, I was just trying to provide a further insight into why I was taking that particular stance.
In memorian: Fiona; Ravager; Lestat; Phreddie; and all of those from the 1500 incident. Lest we forget.
Again I find myself agreeing with DJ in his repetition of the purpose of our posts (since they seem to be very similar).
To reply to specific comments:
[quote="Chanak]@Darzog: ...
We sell ourselves to win friends"]
I fully understand the point you are trying to make, and if my issue was with selling sex I would have to agree. But as I mentioned briefly, sex outside of a life-long committment in any form is immoral in my opinion. The fact that money is involved isn't what makes it wrong to me, it is the almost negligent sacrifice of yourself to someone else. I believe sex to be very special and sacred (that isn't the best word since it almost forces religion into the factor but it holds the best essence of what I am trying to convey) and it should only be performed with someone you are truely connected with. I used marriage in my previous post but I wanted to clarify that I only use the term as a convenience since it is the committment that is important, not a piece of paper.
In general to Chanak and Chim and others:
I do feel that religion has a part to play in this discussion. What people consider moral, whether it is based on religion, culture or other (see [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/honour-killings-no-spam-77335.html"]CE's Honour killing thread[/url] for further discussion of definitions of morality and how they apply in different circumstances) impacts what they think is worth putting into law. What people believe is the basis for their opinions on what should be legal/right/accepted and for some these beliefs are rooted in the definitions of right and wrong we were raised on.
What I feel does not have a part to play is blanket assertions based on religion alone. If someone were to say something to the effect of "The Bible says it's wrong so it is" then I would agree that it is inappropriate. But the only mention of religion at this point (by DJ and myself) was to offer a framework for our opinions, which we clarified as opinions only. We then went on to express how our views of the legality at issue are different from our personal opinions.
I would like to point out that the assertion that prostitution does not harm the buyer or seller as long as they both consent is also just an opinion (which I do not share). My opinion is that this does harm both people emotionally. If you make a stretch, and try to view this from my eyes for a moment, make the jump that both parties are harmed by this action, and anyone intimately involved with either person is also harmed by the act. Assuming for the moment that this harm is a fact (which it is from my view), you might be able to see why some people would try to keep prostitution illegal, since it is harming not only the people involved in the act but also others around them. This harm to others is what always seems to be the key as to whether something should be regulated, and based on the assumption above, prostitution should be outlawed.
Now I try to be as open about people's rights as I can. I understand that not everyone believes the same things that I do so I try to temper my beliefs when evaluating world issues like this. That is why I have determined that I do not object to legalized prostitution because I can understand a point of view where prostitution is not harmful (I don't agree but I can understand). I also don't dismiss your point of view even if it is different from mine, and I would ask the same respect, even if my view is clouded by my religious beliefs.
Some people do not see it the same way. In some cultures what we consider crimes are perfectly acceptable (again, see [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/honour-killings-no-spam-77335.html"]CE's Honour killing thread[/url]). To someone in those cultures, a statement that murder is wrong would be considered an intrusion. A statement that murder hurts others would be neglected if their value of peoples' lives differ from ours. I realize this is a step away from the topic but the point is that there is no absolute truth or absolute right. We all interpret the world around us based on our background and our experiences. This may be influenced by religion, personal experience, culture other than religion, necessity of survival or any other range of things. None of these factors will make you right. You can only look at what frames your perceptions and hope that you are being selfless and considering the "greater good". But don't assume that you are looking at it right and other are wrong or dismiss what frames someone else view of the topic.
To reply to specific comments:
[quote="Chanak]@Darzog: ...
We sell ourselves to win friends"]
I fully understand the point you are trying to make, and if my issue was with selling sex I would have to agree. But as I mentioned briefly, sex outside of a life-long committment in any form is immoral in my opinion. The fact that money is involved isn't what makes it wrong to me, it is the almost negligent sacrifice of yourself to someone else. I believe sex to be very special and sacred (that isn't the best word since it almost forces religion into the factor but it holds the best essence of what I am trying to convey) and it should only be performed with someone you are truely connected with. I used marriage in my previous post but I wanted to clarify that I only use the term as a convenience since it is the committment that is important, not a piece of paper.
In general to Chanak and Chim and others:
I do feel that religion has a part to play in this discussion. What people consider moral, whether it is based on religion, culture or other (see [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/honour-killings-no-spam-77335.html"]CE's Honour killing thread[/url] for further discussion of definitions of morality and how they apply in different circumstances) impacts what they think is worth putting into law. What people believe is the basis for their opinions on what should be legal/right/accepted and for some these beliefs are rooted in the definitions of right and wrong we were raised on.
What I feel does not have a part to play is blanket assertions based on religion alone. If someone were to say something to the effect of "The Bible says it's wrong so it is" then I would agree that it is inappropriate. But the only mention of religion at this point (by DJ and myself) was to offer a framework for our opinions, which we clarified as opinions only. We then went on to express how our views of the legality at issue are different from our personal opinions.
I would like to point out that the assertion that prostitution does not harm the buyer or seller as long as they both consent is also just an opinion (which I do not share). My opinion is that this does harm both people emotionally. If you make a stretch, and try to view this from my eyes for a moment, make the jump that both parties are harmed by this action, and anyone intimately involved with either person is also harmed by the act. Assuming for the moment that this harm is a fact (which it is from my view), you might be able to see why some people would try to keep prostitution illegal, since it is harming not only the people involved in the act but also others around them. This harm to others is what always seems to be the key as to whether something should be regulated, and based on the assumption above, prostitution should be outlawed.
Now I try to be as open about people's rights as I can. I understand that not everyone believes the same things that I do so I try to temper my beliefs when evaluating world issues like this. That is why I have determined that I do not object to legalized prostitution because I can understand a point of view where prostitution is not harmful (I don't agree but I can understand). I also don't dismiss your point of view even if it is different from mine, and I would ask the same respect, even if my view is clouded by my religious beliefs.
Some people do not see it the same way. In some cultures what we consider crimes are perfectly acceptable (again, see [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/speak-your-mind-16/honour-killings-no-spam-77335.html"]CE's Honour killing thread[/url]). To someone in those cultures, a statement that murder is wrong would be considered an intrusion. A statement that murder hurts others would be neglected if their value of peoples' lives differ from ours. I realize this is a step away from the topic but the point is that there is no absolute truth or absolute right. We all interpret the world around us based on our background and our experiences. This may be influenced by religion, personal experience, culture other than religion, necessity of survival or any other range of things. None of these factors will make you right. You can only look at what frames your perceptions and hope that you are being selfless and considering the "greater good". But don't assume that you are looking at it right and other are wrong or dismiss what frames someone else view of the topic.
[QUOTE=Chanak]@Monolith: Does that happen on a widespread basis? I was under the impression (I could be wrong, you would know better than I) that prostitutes in Germany were required to undergo routine health examinations in order to continue operating legally. Is this horrible kind of thing detected during exams, or am I mistaken in believing that there are regular health exams at all?
[/QUOTE]
No routine health examinations that I know of. A law was passed in 2002, but this controlls only the financial and social security issues. Prostitutes can sue their pimps and costumers now if they don't pay. Doesn't help you much if you're beaten to death when you do so.
As far as I know it's rather widespread. Jacques Chirac the current president of France attacked our chancellor Angela Merkel because of the legality of prostitution in Germany. He stated that about 80% women working as prostitutes are doing it unwillingly. Other sources state that about 500000 women have been brought to Germany to work as sex slaves until the year 1997. It is said that about 40000 women were brought to Germany this summer (partly because of the World Cup) - but I read in other sources that this number is way too high.
Police and state are trying to solve the problem, but the laws that were passed aren't strict enough and often the Police can't help due to the fear the women have. When women are rescued they are usually send back home and sometimes sued because they are here illegally (their papers were taken away, they have no valid visa). It's possible that when they are back at home they are taken to another west European country again - all part of the "punishment", as well as their families being harmed or even killed.
But here's something different. How does pornography fit in? The only difference that I can think of is that both are in it for the money.
[/QUOTE]
No routine health examinations that I know of. A law was passed in 2002, but this controlls only the financial and social security issues. Prostitutes can sue their pimps and costumers now if they don't pay. Doesn't help you much if you're beaten to death when you do so.
As far as I know it's rather widespread. Jacques Chirac the current president of France attacked our chancellor Angela Merkel because of the legality of prostitution in Germany. He stated that about 80% women working as prostitutes are doing it unwillingly. Other sources state that about 500000 women have been brought to Germany to work as sex slaves until the year 1997. It is said that about 40000 women were brought to Germany this summer (partly because of the World Cup) - but I read in other sources that this number is way too high.
Police and state are trying to solve the problem, but the laws that were passed aren't strict enough and often the Police can't help due to the fear the women have. When women are rescued they are usually send back home and sometimes sued because they are here illegally (their papers were taken away, they have no valid visa). It's possible that when they are back at home they are taken to another west European country again - all part of the "punishment", as well as their families being harmed or even killed.
But here's something different. How does pornography fit in? The only difference that I can think of is that both are in it for the money.
"Some people say that I must be a terrible person, but it’s not true. I have the heart of a young boy in a jar on my desk."
-Stephen King
-Stephen King
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snoopyofour
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[QUOTE=Chanak]Assuming that prostitution is degrading to a person who engages in it willingly is a stretch, to say the least. It might be degrading to them in your opinion. If they do not find it degrading to themselves, then it is not. [/quote]
I don't have to argue this point, other people have done it far better than I could. I'll let you take it up with them. Here's a place to start, Welcome to the Andrea Dworkin Web Site!.
[quote="Chim] One has to wonder why people feel it necessary to get their dander up on issues like this. Who gave them permission to decide what's best for everyone? If a person chooses to turn tricks to make some extra money"]
What if there's a meteor on its way to destroy earth and the UN gets a phone call from God saying that if the world doesn't eradicate prostitution, He's going to eradicate the world? Seriously man.
I don't have to argue this point, other people have done it far better than I could. I'll let you take it up with them. Here's a place to start, Welcome to the Andrea Dworkin Web Site!.
[quote="Chim] One has to wonder why people feel it necessary to get their dander up on issues like this. Who gave them permission to decide what's best for everyone? If a person chooses to turn tricks to make some extra money"]
What if there's a meteor on its way to destroy earth and the UN gets a phone call from God saying that if the world doesn't eradicate prostitution, He's going to eradicate the world?
Seriously man.When in doubt...kick it
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
Word to the wise, published opinions aren't facts, for those who can't tell the difference.
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Chimaera182
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[QUOTE=snoopyofour]What if there's a meteor on its way to destroy earth and the UN gets a phone call from God saying that if the world doesn't eradicate prostitution, He's going to eradicate the world? Seriously man.[/QUOTE]
Well, thank you for taking this debate seriously. If you're not going to debate the issue at hand, don't post at all.
Seriously man.[/QUOTE]Well, thank you for taking this debate seriously. If you're not going to debate the issue at hand, don't post at all.
General: "Those aren't ideas; those are special effects."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
Michael Bay: "I don't understand the difference."
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snoopyofour
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Chimaera182
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