Prostitution: Legal or Illegal? Absolutely NO SPAM

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:17 am

Some commentary in the Sexual History thread led me to consider the topic of prostitution, the stigmas associated with it in most Western cultures, the laws (in some countries) against it, and the reasoning behind its illegality.

What are your feelings and thoughts concerning the legality (or illegality) of prostitution in your own country? I have definite thoughts about it here in the United States, and will share them here in this post. However, I am curious to discover how others in SYM feel about it.

I believe it is possible to have a meaningful discussion regarding this subject, but feel the need to state very clearly that no spam of any sort is desirable in this thread. The reasons behind that should be obvious to most.

I've thought about the illegality of prostitution in my own country, and feel the reasons behind it are outdated, and based on religious doctrine. Outdated, since I believe the laws against it find their origins in antiquity. This is related to the Judeo-Christian foundation of the system of law in Western cultures, which in some cases derives code directly from the Christian bible. This is not exactly the practice in modern times, but laws of this nature still persist on the books.

I want to clarify that my position does not constitute an attack on religion at all. The context here is a separation of church and state, which in the United States (and most other Western nations) is supposed to exist...in theory, at least. As a means to an end, separation of church and state is designed to permit religious freedom. I support the freedom of a people to practice whatever religion they wish, and to be free from persecution by the state in doing so.

The entire point of my stance supporting the decriminalization of prostitution in the United States is simple. Sex between two consenting adults, be it between two legally married people or not, is not a crime according to US law. Why is it illegal then when payment is involved? What's the reasoning behind that?

The subculture of crime associated with prostitution in this country exists primarily because prostitutes are not afforded equal protection under the law. After all, they are criminals. Therefore, they are forced to resort to dealings with individuals who operate outside of the law, relying on them for support and protection. The argument that prostitution breeds other illegal activities is flawed and is a straw-man argument, in my estimation. If a prostitute were treated like any other citizen, then reliance on a criminal subcuture would no longer be needed. Police and other law enforcement entities would be their support just as they are for every other law-abiding citizen.

Humor me for a moment, and consider the following two scenarios.

An adult individual is sexually attracted to another adult individual. Neither are prostitutes. These two individuals end up having sex by mutual consent. How did they arrive at that point? Typically, by a courting process of sorts, which invariably involves some sort of investment. The investment involved is monetary, and also intangible: money spent on dinners, movies, events...time spent getting to know one another, etc.

An adult individual approaches a prostitute and wishes to pay for sexual favors. The prostitute agrees, accepts the money, and the favors are performed. Both of these individuals are having sex by mutual consent. How did they arrive at that point? An investment process. In this case, strictly monetary.

Personally, I see little difference between the outcomes of both of those scenarios. They both culminate in sex by two mutually consenting adults.

I don't think that simple decriminalization of prostitution is wise from a public health standpoint. Other professions which involve personal contact and exposure to body fluids are regulated by health authorities primarily due to disease control considerations. Healthcare workers, from doctors to nurse aides, must observe certain measures in the conduct of their work. By the same token, so should a prostitute.

From an economic and legal standpoint, simple decriminalization doesn't work very well either. If that is all that is done, then a prostitute's income is tax-free...however, they would also not be entitled to social security income, and access to other services that all legal workers are entitled to (since they pay taxes). I think it should be legalized and regulated as a profession, should an individual choose to engage in prostitution as a means of income generation.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:31 am

I'm actually both for and against it. In my opinion if someone is selling himself/herself, and is doing it by own will and so on, it's acceptable, since that person has made his/her own choice of how to make living.

On the other hand, there is third hand who makes the selling and collecting of money, then it should be illegal.

So basically, doing it in free will is okay but if you are forced to do it by third hand, then it's not acceptable.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:21 am

Interesting thread. I will have to be brief, since I'm shortly taking off for a few days.

The laws concerning prostitution are similar in Canada to those in the US.
In sum, I believe that prostitution should be fully legal. Prostitutes should have complete access to health care and be given regular medical checkups. They should also be able to practice their trade in as safe an environment as possible without the threat of abusive and greedy pimps. IMO, prostitution should be government regulated, and revenues collected from the proceeds should be funnelled into things like women's shelters and the like. Further, the stigma associated with prostitution is wrong. Sadly, however, I don't think the "morality police" are about to go into extinction any time soon.
I'm not suggesting it should be perceived as a trade like any other, however. I've heard of cases in places where it is legal of women being refused state financial assistance since it was cited that prostitution was an avenue they could follow (this was in Nevada, I believe). Moreover, it also needs to be noted that this is not something women generally enter because they want to... Abusive home circumstances, substance addiction, poverty.. all factor in. These are realities that societies need to address in a comprehensive way......

The reality is though, that prostitution has always been around, and it is unlikely to go anywhere. So why not just deal with it.. deal with it in a way that minimises the risk posed to the women engaged in it.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:41 am

It isn't often referred to as the world's oldest profession for nothing.

I think it should be legalized, although I can't really bring anything new to the discussion since all the points I'd bring up--and brought up in the past--have already been mentioned. Although I would point out that prostitution is hardly limited to just women.

Monolith · Post by **Monolith** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:43 am

It's legal in Germany and I think it should be illlegalized. There are too many women brought to Germany from east European countries and enslaved, forced to work as prostitutes for nothing but beating. There is no way to prevent it - the women are lured away from their homes by empty promises, their papers are taken away, they are sold and forced to live life as sex slaves. They are intimidated by beating, threatened and raped on a daily basis. Plus, many of their customers think that they are doing it willingly - ignoring the bruises and taking them for "shy ones". I heard of many cases where brothels were closed because it was found out that such girls were "employed". And I don't want to know how many of these "legal" businesses remain open due to the legality of prostitution.

snoopyofour · Post by **snoopyofour** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:20 am

Reading some of Andrea Dworkin's writings has lead me to believe that nobody (or very nearly nobody) becomes a prostitute of their own volition. Most often they are forced into by poverty, drug addiction, and homelessness. Of course it has been romanticized over and over in film and literature but I think the truth of the matter is that it is a degrading and demeaning profession (although it makes me sick to call it that, its more like exploitation). Even some feminists have tried to lay a silk sheet over it. In her book "C***" Inga Muscio makes a somewhat bizarre reference to a myth or something similiar (can't remember exactly what it was) in which women are the source of all sexual power (some of this book was fairly strange) and that prostitution reflects this (the woman granting a man the use of her sexual power). But I can't understand how she, or any woman for that matter, could see it like that. I doubt many men who buy sex view it as being granted a glimpse into the metaphysical nature of sexuality. IMO, what's happening is a woman is allowing a man to relieve himself with her body. The relationship between them isn't much more complicated with the one I have with my toilet. Actually that isn't a good analogy. Its my like the relationship I have with any public restroom. And if your in certain areas of Europe you even have to pay for that too. Like I said, its been romanticized alot I don't think there's any way for it to be anything other than demeaning towards women.

Dowaco · Post by **Dowaco** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:51 am

I would vote for legalization for several reasons.

1. Improved conditions for both customer and prostitute in terms of hygene, health care, safety, etc.

2. Increased tax revenue for federal and state governments to ease the tax burden on the middle class.

3. Provide legit jobs for pimps and fair wages for hookers.

Pitfalls
Pimps are not going to like having their industry regulated and money taken out of their pockets. This can be offset by simply raising prices. Customers should be willing to pay for the added benefits.

Politicians will have to take a stand which will anger many of their constituents. Not going to happen.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:13 pm

[QUOTE=Dowaco]
Pitfalls
Pimps are not going to like having their industry regulated and money taken out of their pockets. This can be offset by simply raising prices. Customers should be willing to pay for the added benefits.[/QUOTE]
Except that the legalization of prostitution affecting them cannot be offset by raising prices. If you raise prices of prostitutes, people will look elsewhere for cheaper prostitutes (customers should be willing to pay for added benefits, but they sure as heck won't), and those will most likely be ones that are working under the table so as not to be regulated. Price-driven competition will ensue, and then you're back to illegal prostitutes and nothing's changed.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:03 pm

[QUOTE=snoopyofour]Reading some of Andrea Dworkin's writings has lead me to believe that nobody (or very nearly nobody) becomes a prostitute of their own volition. Most often they are forced into by poverty, drug addiction, and homelessness. Of course it has been romanticized over and over in film and literature but I think the truth of the matter is that it is a degrading and demeaning profession (although it makes me sick to call it that, its more like exploitation). Even some feminists have tried to lay a silk sheet over it. In her book "C***" Inga Muscio makes a somewhat bizarre reference to a myth or something similiar (can't remember exactly what it was) in which women are the source of all sexual power (some of this book was fairly strange) and that prostitution reflects this (the woman granting a man the use of her sexual power). But I can't understand how she, or any woman for that matter, could see it like that. I doubt many men who buy sex view it as being granted a glimpse into the metaphysical nature of sexuality. IMO, what's happening is a woman is allowing a man to relieve himself with her body. The relationship between them isn't much more complicated with the one I have with my toilet. Actually that isn't a good analogy. Its my like the relationship I have with any public restroom. And if your in certain areas of Europe you even have to pay for that too. Like I said, its been romanticized alot I don't think there's any way for it to be anything other than demeaning towards women.[/QUOTE]

While I appreciate your thoughts concerning prostitution itself, it's not answering the question I asked. I have my own opinion concerning prostitution that's separate from questions concerning legality...but then, what I'm talking about here is something consentual between two adults. Why is it illegal to begin with? Should it be?

If both the prostitute and the customer are in agreement, should it be against the law? That's the question this thread raises. Should it continue to be illegal in the US, or should it be decriminalized, or to take it further, legalized and regulated?

@Monolith: Does that happen on a widespread basis? I was under the impression (I could be wrong, you would know better than I) that prostitutes in Germany were required to undergo routine health examinations in order to continue operating legally. Is this horrible kind of thing detected during exams, or am I mistaken in believing that there are regular health exams at all?

Mind you, I don't think very highly of prostitution myself, and agree that it is often the last resort of people desperately trying to survive (as Chimera points out and accurately so, the popular image of a prostitute is female, but a growing number of prostitutes are male). However, there happen to be individuals who work in the "adult entertainment" industry at their own free will who engage in prostitution, and in trying to determine why consentual sex between two adults is declared illegal by the state in one situation and not in another, I find no satisfactory answer.

Something else that bothers me is the stigma associated with prostitution. Why are prostitutes looked down upon by so many people? What makes him or her a lesser human being than most everyone else? Is it because prostitution is an illegal activity? What makes a prostitute any lesser of a person than an adult who seeks to have a "one night stand" with a member of the sex they're attracted to? How many friends and relatives do we know that have done something like that before? I can name several off the top of my head.

blake · Post by **blake** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:12 pm

I think it should be legalized and regulated, just as I think drugs should be as well. OF course, the US is a country where Abortion is teetering on a crime, so I doubt it will ever be legalized and regulated, as safe as it could be, there are too many moral crusaders against it.

Damuna_Nova · Post by **Damuna_Nova** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:22 pm

Legal.

If sex can be bought then crimes arising from sexual frustration are much less likely to happen.

Ertai · Post by **Ertai** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:30 pm

[QUOTE=Damuna_Nova]Legal.

If sex can be bought then crimes arising from sexual frustration are much less likely to happen.[/QUOTE]
Many sexual offenders/rapists are married, or have not been without sex for a period of time. Most of them have sex lives, and thus the problem is not that they aren't getting sex, but not the way they want it.

Ertai · Post by **Ertai** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:32 pm

I tend to think of prostitution like I would abortion. It's not going to end well in some cases, such as a person being forced into prostitution unwillingly, which is bound to happen. But, like abortion, it's going to continue, no matter what, and we might as well make it as safe as possible once we've accepted its inevitability.

What a person does with their body is their own decision, and no one can choose the way they have sex, or what circumstances the sex is under [unless of course, a person's rights are being violated in the processs.]

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:36 pm

This notion gives me strongly conflicting thoughts. Firstly, I shall address Chanak's later question in his post of why they are treated as lesser human beings. I believe it is because having sex is the biggest thing you can give of yourself to another person. That is why rape is punishable by a life imprisonment, because it is such a big thing.

I personally am against prostitution, and think it is a disgusting act, both for the person who sells themselves, but even more for the person paying for it. However, I would say it should be legalised, as there is no justification for having it illegal.

Currently in Queensland (my state in Aus), from what I can piece together, the following prostitution laws exist:
a) for pimps: 7 years for procurring, 14 if the person is mentally impaired or not an adult
b) a person who helps in creating a place: 3 years first offence, 5 second, 7 for each subsequent

There are some other things not as relevant, however I cannot piece together the punishment (if one exists) for solo operators, and while I can't find anything on brothels, I have a feeling that new legislation was brought in recently, I just can't remember what it was on.

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Moreover, it also needs to be noted that this is not something women generally enter because they want to... Abusive home circumstances, substance addiction, poverty.. all factor in. These are realities that societies need to address in a comprehensive way......[/QUOTE]
But this is one fear that I do have. By legalising it, it becomes encouraged and a more attractive (excuse the pun) profession. As I said earlier though, these are my personal opinons, probably aided by a strong Catholic background etc., so I would not consider it fair to impose my beliefs on others.

So legalise it.

snoopyofour · Post by **snoopyofour** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:24 pm

@Chanak, yeah I didn't mention outright that I thought it should be illegal. I agree, prostitutes are people too. Often they're people that just made some mistakes and were left with no other viable alternative. And I think the problem with saying that its consentual between two adults and should therefore be legalized is all in the relative perspectives of the buyer and the prostitute. The buyer is probably thinking "I really want to get my rocks off" and the hooker is probably thinking "If I don't do this tonight, I won't eat tomorrow". I'm not sure how to label it, but there is something very wrong with this situation. Consentual to me, implies that both parties are looking to get the same things out of the sex, but with prostitutes, its an act of pleasure for one and an act of survival for the other.

@Damuna, I don't know if rape was what you were alluding to but most of the time, rape is an act of violence, not sexual frustration.

Darzog · Post by **Darzog** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:34 pm

Well, I though about replying when I first saw this thread but decided against it since I didn't want to get into the moral vs. legal arguments. But since DJ came out with almost exactly what I would have said, I'll throw my support out there for what he said.

I think it is wrong (more because it cheapens both people than anything else) but I think it is wrong on moral grounds so should not be a legal matter. It should be legal, but that doesn't mean I would advocate it (either to supply or receive).

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:36 pm

There are a number of laws here in the US which find their origins in a Puritannically-influenced past. The so-called Blue Laws, for example, prohibit the sale of alcohol on Sundays. Numerous "dry" counties exist in most of the Southern states here in the US (I've lived in a few during my time in the southern US), meaning the sale of alcoholic beverages is completely prohibited within that county (for those who aren't aware, a State is divided up into separate counties). Businesses have found ways to compromise with this in some of those areas, namely restaurants. Anti-sodomy laws are another good example. A number of states still have these sorts of laws on the books.

Again, I need to stress that my stance concerning these laws regards the limitations on personal liberty and freedom from a state-sponsored religion they represent. The purchase and consumption of alcohol is perfectly legal in the United States for an adult 21 years of age or older, yet individual counties are able to prohibit the sale of this legal product within their confines. The ban on the sale of alcohol on Sundays follows no real logic in a wider public sense, save for the concerns of a religious majority. This is quite common in the American South, even in such well-developed metropolitan centers as Atlanta, Georgia, host of the 1996 Olympic Games. I will note that during the period of the Olympics, most of the Metro Atlanta counties temporarily removed any Blue Law restrictions they had in order to accomodate foreign visitors...

While it is true that some restraints on personal liberty are necessary in order to maintain peace and an environment which is conducive to the exercise of certain rights, many restraints exist at this time which only address the concerns of certain religious doctrine and teaching. Essentially, if an activity does not negatively impact the life and livelihood of other citizens, then there is no legal justification to prohibit that activity. Two consenting adults engaged in sexual activity does not affect the rights of other citizens not involved in the activity themselves. The form that this consentual sexual activity takes is not something within the scope of law, in my opinion.

Prostitution was offensive to a religious majority in this country, as it is forbidden by the doctrine of their religion. In these modern times, the United States has become more diverse and increasingly detached from a Puritannical past. If any real and substantial separation of church and state is to be maintained according to the letter and spirit of the US Constitution, the laws making prostitution a crime need to be abolished. It follows that similar laws forbidding legal activities, such as the licensed sale of alcoholic beverages to adults of legal age, need to be repealed as well.

@Darzog: I happen to share your opinion about prostitution. It is distasteful to me, personally. However, not everyone shares that opinion, and I don't feel it is in the spirit of the US Constitution to restrict the personal liberty of others concerning something that is perfectly okay between two (or more) consenting adults. I keep using that phrase because I strongly believe it should not be legal for a minor to be involved in this sort of activity, despite the presence of parental consent (believe it or not, that could happen). Minors are not legally empowered to make decisions for themselves unless they pursue Emancipation, which is another issue entirely. An adult is legally responsible for their own actions, whereas a child in most cases is not. I think this is something that transcends religiously-motivated strictures; I am confident that most everyone in the Western world, despite differences in religious and even cultural background, would agree unanimously about that.

Chimaera182 · Post by **Chimaera182** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:36 pm

Prostitution is like drugs: you can make it as illegal as you want, and make all the noise you like, but it's going to happen regardless of the law. And it's just going to be made more dangerous by keeping it criminalized. People who outlaw things for moral issues tend to dismiss the morals of other people, superimposing their beliefs on those of others. If your morals tell you something's wrong, just don't engage in it; don't take it upon yourself to force everyone else to fall in line with you.

Damuna_Nova · Post by **Damuna_Nova** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:40 pm

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]Prostitution is like drugs: you can make it as illegal as you want, and make all the noise you like, but it's going to happen regardless of the law. And it's just going to be made more dangerous by keeping it criminalized. People who outlaw things for moral issues tend to dismiss the morals of other people, superimposing their beliefs on those of others. If your morals tell you something's wrong, just don't engage in it; don't take it upon yourself to force everyone else to fall in line with you.[/QUOTE]

You've just alienated most religious figures. :laugh:

Hm...alienate doesn't seem like the right word, oh well.

snoopyofour · Post by **snoopyofour** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:05 pm

[QUOTE=Chimaera]People who outlaw things for moral issues tend to dismiss the morals of other people, superimposing their beliefs on those of others. If your morals tell you something's wrong, just don't engage in it; don't take it upon yourself to force everyone else to fall in line with you.[/QUOTE].

@Chimaera, You just dismissed the morals and beliefs of every religion in which spreading one's faith and system of morality is a necessary part of the religion. Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions but they are also entitled to try to enforce their opinions. This is the lesser talked about, dark side of moral relativism.

@Chanak, as it is relevant to prostitution becoming legal, all that must be done to keep it illegal is show that it promotes sexism towards women, which many people have already done. The government won't condone something which lends itself to discrimination.