[QUOTE=fable]Come on, now. In Finland, ethnic Finns are a huge majority, and possess large numbers. Here in the US, they are a tiny minority. Surely you can see why believers in Islam are called a minority in Denmark? For the same reason that Buddhists are a minority in Iraq, and Christians a minority in Jordan. There are very few of them when compared to the majority population. They have little ethnic clout, if we define ethnic clout as the ability to bring focused pressure upon national governments and achieve some important, immediate goal.[/QUOTE]
The comparison sort of falls out of hand especially since Denmark only has a what...5 million population and the number of moslems in the country are approx. 300 000... Not a bad number if you think about it, but a number nonetheless which have meant a lot of integration problems in Denmark.
The number of moslems around the world amount to about 1,4 billion...so Im sure the Danish moslems don't feel at all too lonely when it comes to protesting against these cartoons...
The most famous cartoon ever (serius topic, no spam)
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dragon wench
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Here is a story on it:A danish, and according to reports swedish, embessy in Syria has been burned down, along with other "attacks" on EU officies.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/ ... 60204.html
Embassies set ablaze over caricature
Protests over editorial cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed turned violent Saturday in the Syrian capital as demonstrators set fire to the Danish, Chilean and Swedish embassies.
Hundreds of people in Damascus stormed the building, which houses all three embassies, to denounce the satirical depictions of the Prophet that appeared in a Danish newspaper.
The protesters also threw stones at the building, shattering its windows, the Reuters news agency reported.
Police used tear gas and water cannons to disperse the demonstrators, who then moved on to the Norwegian Embassy, broke through police barriers and set fire to the building.
It's not clear if anyone inside the embassies was hurt.
Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Qu'ran, forbids any depictions of Islam's holiest figure to prevent idolatry.
The cartoons were originally published in Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten in September, but publications in Norway, France and Germany have since reprinted some of them to show solidarity over freedom of speech issues.
The Danish newspaper published an apology for the cartoons on Jan. 30. The drawings "were not intended to be offensive, nor were they at variance with Danish law, but they have indisputably offended many Muslims for which we apologize," the daily said.
Three of the 12 drawings were reprinted in a Jordanian newspaper on Thursday, alongside an editorial questioning whether the angry reaction to them in the Muslim world was justified.
The editor who wrote the editorial, Jihad Momani, was fired on Friday and, despite a letter of apology, arrested Saturday on charges of blasphemy, according to Jordan's state prosecutor.
The cartoons, including one depicting Muhammad with a turban-shaped bomb on his head, have sparked protests across the Middle East.
In Gaza City, some 400 demonstrators hurled stones at a European Commission building and stormed a German cultural centre, smashing windows and doors. Riot police were brought in to disperse the crowds.
Those comics should never have been printed, and I can understand why Muslims are deeply insulted.. But this? I can't condone the burning down of embassies and similar violence, period.
It's difficult to feel a continued sense of cultural empathy when things escalate to this level....
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[QUOTE=dragon wench]Those comics should never have been printed, and I can understand why Muslims are deeply insulted.. But this? I can't condone the burning down of embassies and similar violence, period.
It's difficult to feel a continued sense of cultural empathy when things escalate to this level....[/QUOTE]
The question is did anyone really expect anything different?!? The London underground terrorist attack...the murder of the Dutch filmdirector Theo van Gogh...the riots in Paris...murdering people and burning embassies because of a comic... Only the beginning of conflicts we will see in Europe Im afraid... Just shows that a "tolerant" religion such as Islam cant be integrated into modern western society... Give them a finger and they'll try and take the whole hand... A shame really...cause in the best of worlds everyone should be able to live together in harmony...
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...
It's difficult to feel a continued sense of cultural empathy when things escalate to this level....[/QUOTE]
The question is did anyone really expect anything different?!? The London underground terrorist attack...the murder of the Dutch filmdirector Theo van Gogh...the riots in Paris...murdering people and burning embassies because of a comic... Only the beginning of conflicts we will see in Europe Im afraid... Just shows that a "tolerant" religion such as Islam cant be integrated into modern western society... Give them a finger and they'll try and take the whole hand... A shame really...cause in the best of worlds everyone should be able to live together in harmony...
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...
“Child abuse doesn’t have to mean broken bones and black marks. Young growing tissues are far more vulnerable to carcinogens than those of adults.
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
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dragon wench
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[QUOTE=Karembeu]The question is did anyone really expect anything different?!? The London underground terrorist attack...the murder of the Dutch filmdirector Theo van Gogh...the riots in Paris...murdering people and burning embassies because of a comic... Only the beginning of conflicts we will see in Europe Im afraid...[/QUOTE]
I didn't expect anything different, personally. As I said in my first post in this thread, I think the publication of these cartoons was fundamentally stupid, and akin to thowing a match on gasoline, given the tensions between Western nations and the Middle East since 9/11.
However, just because I'm not surprised doesn't mean I condone the violence that has resulted.
I didn't expect anything different, personally. As I said in my first post in this thread, I think the publication of these cartoons was fundamentally stupid, and akin to thowing a match on gasoline, given the tensions between Western nations and the Middle East since 9/11.
However, just because I'm not surprised doesn't mean I condone the violence that has resulted.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Karembeu]The question is did anyone really expect anything different?!? The London underground terrorist attack...the murder of the Dutch filmdirector Theo van Gogh...the riots in Paris...murdering people and burning embassies because of a comic... Only the beginning of conflicts we will see in Europe Im afraid... Just shows that a "tolerant" religion such as Islam cant be integrated into modern western society... Give them a finger and they'll try and take the whole hand... A shame really...cause in the best of worlds everyone should be able to live together in harmony...[/quote]
Well, let's see, now: The first major contact between Europe and the MidEast occurred when Christian civilization (sanctified by the Papacy, who declared it a holy cause) decided to invade the MidEast, conquer parts of the territory, there, and kill as many "unbelievers" as possible. That began around 1095 ACE. The second Crusade was launched in 1147, the fifth occured around 1217, etc.
Meanwhile, in European cities, Jews were being burnt, crucified, drawn-and-quartered, or merely tortured for denying the efficacy of Christianity.
Christian civilization was in the meantime achieving a name for wholesale slaughter. They would send priests to convert regional leaders, and then suggest that all their people be converted, as well, or killed. It was considered to be the killing of heathens, and the converted leaders were told by their Christian priests that this was all to the glory of God.
As Christian civilization expanded, it uncovered peoples in the African and South American continents that had remained unknown to Europeans for thousands of years. These people were converted to Christianity and frequently taken on as a slave sub-culture. All of this is heavily documented.
You see what we can do by picking and choosing, just as you did? It would be easy to say of Christianity, "give its representatives a finger, and they will chop off the whole hand," and indeed, it has been said, repeatedly, about a religion and its European representatives who have provided for more international misery than any other group. -And I at least in the few events I briefly described, I selected incidents involving tens of thousands of people. You've selected events involving a few dozen, out of an Islamic population you admit currently exceeds 1 billion.
But let's be factual. Instead of pointing to a few newspaper headlines over the last couple of years to denigrate an entire religion, its followers, and a very long history, could you please post some instances of Islamic intolerance on the order of, say, the Christian Crusades, and more vintage than just a decade or two of tabloid press?
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...
Surely you know the Palestinians they support are a specific government, while this was an insult offered to a religion? Let's say you're Methodist, and French. If someone speaks of "dirty, stinking Methodists," does that mean they've attacked France? To be sure, most Palestinians are followers of Islam. Now, how many of those Palestinians were involved in physical attacks on embassies? 5? 10? 100? Out of a population exceeding 10 million? Unless of course you're suggesting that great old Judeo-Christian recourse, a tooth-for-a-tooth, an eye-for-an-eye?
Well, let's see, now: The first major contact between Europe and the MidEast occurred when Christian civilization (sanctified by the Papacy, who declared it a holy cause) decided to invade the MidEast, conquer parts of the territory, there, and kill as many "unbelievers" as possible. That began around 1095 ACE. The second Crusade was launched in 1147, the fifth occured around 1217, etc.
Meanwhile, in European cities, Jews were being burnt, crucified, drawn-and-quartered, or merely tortured for denying the efficacy of Christianity.
Christian civilization was in the meantime achieving a name for wholesale slaughter. They would send priests to convert regional leaders, and then suggest that all their people be converted, as well, or killed. It was considered to be the killing of heathens, and the converted leaders were told by their Christian priests that this was all to the glory of God.
As Christian civilization expanded, it uncovered peoples in the African and South American continents that had remained unknown to Europeans for thousands of years. These people were converted to Christianity and frequently taken on as a slave sub-culture. All of this is heavily documented.
You see what we can do by picking and choosing, just as you did? It would be easy to say of Christianity, "give its representatives a finger, and they will chop off the whole hand," and indeed, it has been said, repeatedly, about a religion and its European representatives who have provided for more international misery than any other group. -And I at least in the few events I briefly described, I selected incidents involving tens of thousands of people. You've selected events involving a few dozen, out of an Islamic population you admit currently exceeds 1 billion.
But let's be factual. Instead of pointing to a few newspaper headlines over the last couple of years to denigrate an entire religion, its followers, and a very long history, could you please post some instances of Islamic intolerance on the order of, say, the Christian Crusades, and more vintage than just a decade or two of tabloid press?
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...
Surely you know the Palestinians they support are a specific government, while this was an insult offered to a religion? Let's say you're Methodist, and French. If someone speaks of "dirty, stinking Methodists," does that mean they've attacked France? To be sure, most Palestinians are followers of Islam. Now, how many of those Palestinians were involved in physical attacks on embassies? 5? 10? 100? Out of a population exceeding 10 million? Unless of course you're suggesting that great old Judeo-Christian recourse, a tooth-for-a-tooth, an eye-for-an-eye?
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Luis Antonio
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It would be strange to see the Muslims quiet about it. Everything about religions creates such a fuss that is hard to comprehend to me. That's allright, since I was an unbeliever till one or two years ago.
But atacks and killings and boycotts, this seems to go too far. The hatred is too big. And I hope to see what the European governments will do about it.
I think they'll bow to the Islamic nations and censorship will arise.
But atacks and killings and boycotts, this seems to go too far. The hatred is too big. And I hope to see what the European governments will do about it.
I think they'll bow to the Islamic nations and censorship will arise.
Flesh to stone ain't permanent, it seems.
[QUOTE=Karembeu]The question is did anyone really expect anything different?!? The London underground terrorist attack...the murder of the Dutch filmdirector Theo van Gogh...the riots in Paris...murdering people and burning embassies because of a comic... Only the beginning of conflicts we will see in Europe Im afraid... Just shows that a "tolerant" religion such as Islam cant be integrated into modern western society... Give them a finger and they'll try and take the whole hand... A shame really...cause in the best of worlds everyone should be able to live together in harmony...
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...[/QUOTE]
Alright i take great exception to this. Why should i consider a European a human being? 300 years of colonialism? 200 years of slavery based on racism? Nazis? The Holocaust? The rape and destruction of Africa? By your logic i should consider every european a racist neo-nazi.
Edit 2: It seems after talking to Luis my point did not come across. The point is if you use the extremists elements within a society to define the majority then everybody is evil and uncivilized. You can't use the actions of a few 1000 men to define 1 billion people.
This is my last comment on the subject.
Why should we (muslims) use the moral values of europeans to define what is sacred to us? You don't respect religion and find cartoons fine. Does that mean we have to?
Tolerance doesn't mean oh we have minorities and we support human rights. Tolerance means accepting different points of views. What i have seen is that Europe doesn't accept any views other than its own. If the Europeans feel cartoons insulting a faith is fine, well the rest of the world is just wrong right?
Arrogant to the very end. Europe has learnt nothing from Colonialsm and world war 2.
Edit: To add i just read about the Syria fires. Most regrettable. Certainly not acceptable under any circumstances. Its a shame so much damage has occured due to the cartoons. Hope nobody was injured.
Its amazing. If the Danish PM had met with the Muslim Ambassadors when they had requested a peaceful resolution to the issue 5 months ago, this wouldn't be happening. He refused.
Simple issue of cause and effect. Its easy to blame the syrians for their actions when you take the blame off the way Europe has handled the situation. If the cartoons situation had been handled properly this would not have happened. Is the disrespect of a religions worth this much destruction?
Whats really sad to see is that countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway pay huge amounts of money in form of humanitarian help to Palestine and the likes... And this is the kind of gratitude shown back...[/QUOTE]
Alright i take great exception to this. Why should i consider a European a human being? 300 years of colonialism? 200 years of slavery based on racism? Nazis? The Holocaust? The rape and destruction of Africa? By your logic i should consider every european a racist neo-nazi.
Edit 2: It seems after talking to Luis my point did not come across. The point is if you use the extremists elements within a society to define the majority then everybody is evil and uncivilized. You can't use the actions of a few 1000 men to define 1 billion people.
This is my last comment on the subject.
Why should we (muslims) use the moral values of europeans to define what is sacred to us? You don't respect religion and find cartoons fine. Does that mean we have to?
Tolerance doesn't mean oh we have minorities and we support human rights. Tolerance means accepting different points of views. What i have seen is that Europe doesn't accept any views other than its own. If the Europeans feel cartoons insulting a faith is fine, well the rest of the world is just wrong right?
Arrogant to the very end. Europe has learnt nothing from Colonialsm and world war 2.
Edit: To add i just read about the Syria fires. Most regrettable. Certainly not acceptable under any circumstances. Its a shame so much damage has occured due to the cartoons. Hope nobody was injured.
Its amazing. If the Danish PM had met with the Muslim Ambassadors when they had requested a peaceful resolution to the issue 5 months ago, this wouldn't be happening. He refused.
Simple issue of cause and effect. Its easy to blame the syrians for their actions when you take the blame off the way Europe has handled the situation. If the cartoons situation had been handled properly this would not have happened. Is the disrespect of a religions worth this much destruction?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
[QUOTE=CM]<snip>
Why should we (muslims) use the moral values of europeans to define what is sacred to us? You don't respect religion and find cartoons fine. Does that mean we have to?
Tolerance doesn't mean oh we have minorities and we support human rights. Tolerance means accepting different points of views. What i have seen is that Europe doesn't accept any views other than its own. If the Europeans feel cartoons insulting a faith is fine, well the rest of the world is just wrong right?
Arrogant to the very end. Europe has learnt nothing from Colonialsm and world war 2.
[/QUOTE]
Any why should people live in fear because your religon says it is forbidden to illustrate Mohammed?
Why should your religon govern how others live?
Is the faith so weak that its rules needs to be enforced upon people that don't follow it?
Your religon does not superseed other peoples.
Tolerance - I guess only tolerance as long as it fits with the views of Islam I take it. If it had been a matter of tolerance, it would be the newspaper which were boycutted and protested against. Not deaththreats against every dane (or other nationality), boycuts agains the entier country, burnings of flags, burnings of embassies.
Instead it is violence that is answered, yet again. I've often seen references to the fact that people shouldn't judge all muslims or Islam on the acts of a few fanatical terrorists.
But when the situation is rewersed ... what is done... jugdement of entier populations which have had *nothing* to do with the events other then living in the same coutnry as a few men responsible.
Hah - tolerance indeed. Hypocrasy instead.
[QUOTE=CM]<snip>
Its amazing. If the Danish PM had met with the Muslim Ambassadors when they had requested a peaceful resolution to the issue 5 months ago, this wouldn't be happening. He refused.
Simple issue of cause and effect. Its easy to blame the syrians for their actions when you take the blame off the way Europe has handled the situation. If the cartoons situation had been handled properly this would not have happened. Is the disrespect of a religions worth this much destruction?[/QUOTE]
He did not refuse to talk with them. He refused to give them what they wanted.
They wanted the people responsible punished and him to appologize, he could not do that so he directed them to the courts.
In a free country , where the press is not subject to govermental censorship or control, the PM can not do that. This is not a dictatorship where the PM rules supreeme.
If the embassedors had wanted to talk about the situation, then the situation might have been solvable back then - but they didn't want to talk.
They wanted retribution from somebody that could not within his powers give it to them.
Heck - he has "appologized", or rather expressed his regret, as much as he can - and even the paper has appologized for the insults (not for the bringing of the pictures, but for insulting people).
Lastly - practice what you preach in my view. You preach and demand tolerance and understanding .... then do so by setting an example instead of burning things down and make threats and trying to punish entier countries of people for the acts of a few.
Why should we (muslims) use the moral values of europeans to define what is sacred to us? You don't respect religion and find cartoons fine. Does that mean we have to?
Tolerance doesn't mean oh we have minorities and we support human rights. Tolerance means accepting different points of views. What i have seen is that Europe doesn't accept any views other than its own. If the Europeans feel cartoons insulting a faith is fine, well the rest of the world is just wrong right?
Arrogant to the very end. Europe has learnt nothing from Colonialsm and world war 2.
[/QUOTE]
Any why should people live in fear because your religon says it is forbidden to illustrate Mohammed?
Why should your religon govern how others live?
Is the faith so weak that its rules needs to be enforced upon people that don't follow it?
Your religon does not superseed other peoples.
Tolerance - I guess only tolerance as long as it fits with the views of Islam I take it. If it had been a matter of tolerance, it would be the newspaper which were boycutted and protested against. Not deaththreats against every dane (or other nationality), boycuts agains the entier country, burnings of flags, burnings of embassies.
Instead it is violence that is answered, yet again. I've often seen references to the fact that people shouldn't judge all muslims or Islam on the acts of a few fanatical terrorists.
But when the situation is rewersed ... what is done... jugdement of entier populations which have had *nothing* to do with the events other then living in the same coutnry as a few men responsible.
Hah - tolerance indeed. Hypocrasy instead.
[QUOTE=CM]<snip>
Its amazing. If the Danish PM had met with the Muslim Ambassadors when they had requested a peaceful resolution to the issue 5 months ago, this wouldn't be happening. He refused.
Simple issue of cause and effect. Its easy to blame the syrians for their actions when you take the blame off the way Europe has handled the situation. If the cartoons situation had been handled properly this would not have happened. Is the disrespect of a religions worth this much destruction?[/QUOTE]
He did not refuse to talk with them. He refused to give them what they wanted.
They wanted the people responsible punished and him to appologize, he could not do that so he directed them to the courts.
In a free country , where the press is not subject to govermental censorship or control, the PM can not do that. This is not a dictatorship where the PM rules supreeme.
If the embassedors had wanted to talk about the situation, then the situation might have been solvable back then - but they didn't want to talk.
They wanted retribution from somebody that could not within his powers give it to them.
Heck - he has "appologized", or rather expressed his regret, as much as he can - and even the paper has appologized for the insults (not for the bringing of the pictures, but for insulting people).
Lastly - practice what you preach in my view. You preach and demand tolerance and understanding .... then do so by setting an example instead of burning things down and make threats and trying to punish entier countries of people for the acts of a few.
Insert signature here.
Xandax answer the question. Answer mine and i will answer yours.
I will do you a favor and answer one of yours. Tolerance only when it fits Islam...interesting. Because what i see here is the following:
1. Muslims ask for a peaceful resolution. Denmark says no.
2. They wait for 5 months. Denmark keeps saying no.
3. Denmark starts to lose money and jobs. All of a sudden they take notice.
What we have seen is 5 months of arrogance and distaint for what Muslims find sacred. Nobody listened. Rather they added fuel to the fire.
That is not tolerance. You can blame muslims for this all you want. But the bottom line is that the Muslim govts tried for 5 months for a peaceful resolution to the matter. Europe did nothing.
5 months of tolerance in exchange for what? Arrogance? Indifference? No more insults.
When someone insults you tolerate it. If they continue you try a peaceful situation. If that is rebuffed, physical action is the last alternative. After 5 months of no action by Denmark...this is what you get.
You reap what you sow.
Now answer my question: Why should muslims use European values to define what is sacred to them and what is not?
Edit: To take on board what Xandax added.
Yes he refused to meet them. There was not just one call for meetings. There were a series of calls for meetings. With the PM. With all the OIC countries and the PMs. With the Govt. You think the Ambassadors would just meet one person? Of course not. The danish govt is bigger than one person.
I see they didn't want to talk? That is why they called for meetings for 5 months? Diplomacy is based on compromise. The PM said no and refused to meet them. That was that. 5 months nothing was said.
When did they apologise? Look at the BBC time line. It was only after Denmark started to lose millions of dollars due to a boycott. It wasn't because they cared. It was because they weren't getting money.
After all for 5 months he couldn't apologise. Now he has a change of heart?
This is rich Xandax. If i recall correctly Europe prides itself on tolerance yet shows none. This matter was started 5 months ago. You heard nothing violent from muslims for 5 months.
Now all of sudden you are up in arms because your newspapers added fuel to the fire again? Not just once. But twice. That is an example of tolerance.
I will do you a favor and answer one of yours. Tolerance only when it fits Islam...interesting. Because what i see here is the following:
1. Muslims ask for a peaceful resolution. Denmark says no.
2. They wait for 5 months. Denmark keeps saying no.
3. Denmark starts to lose money and jobs. All of a sudden they take notice.
What we have seen is 5 months of arrogance and distaint for what Muslims find sacred. Nobody listened. Rather they added fuel to the fire.
That is not tolerance. You can blame muslims for this all you want. But the bottom line is that the Muslim govts tried for 5 months for a peaceful resolution to the matter. Europe did nothing.
5 months of tolerance in exchange for what? Arrogance? Indifference? No more insults.
When someone insults you tolerate it. If they continue you try a peaceful situation. If that is rebuffed, physical action is the last alternative. After 5 months of no action by Denmark...this is what you get.
You reap what you sow.
Now answer my question: Why should muslims use European values to define what is sacred to them and what is not?
Edit: To take on board what Xandax added.
Yes he refused to meet them. There was not just one call for meetings. There were a series of calls for meetings. With the PM. With all the OIC countries and the PMs. With the Govt. You think the Ambassadors would just meet one person? Of course not. The danish govt is bigger than one person.
I see they didn't want to talk? That is why they called for meetings for 5 months? Diplomacy is based on compromise. The PM said no and refused to meet them. That was that. 5 months nothing was said.
When did they apologise? Look at the BBC time line. It was only after Denmark started to lose millions of dollars due to a boycott. It wasn't because they cared. It was because they weren't getting money.
After all for 5 months he couldn't apologise. Now he has a change of heart?
This is rich Xandax. If i recall correctly Europe prides itself on tolerance yet shows none. This matter was started 5 months ago. You heard nothing violent from muslims for 5 months.
Now all of sudden you are up in arms because your newspapers added fuel to the fire again? Not just once. But twice. That is an example of tolerance.
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
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dragon wench
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[QUOTE=CM] Why should Muslims use European values to define what is sacred to them and what is not?[/QUOTE]
I think part of what is at the crux here.. is where these comics were published. They were published in Denmark, a European nation with European values. They were not originally published in the Middle East.. So, to play devil's advocate, should the Danish have operated within Muslim values while publishing in their own society?
As I've said, I believe the comics are highly insulting, and I can understand the outrage. I also feel that it was stupid to publish them... though digging through it deeper... the question does arise.. "How far should the press censor itself?"
Moreover.... It's not as though Muslim newspapers, or public figures, refrain from making highly inflammatory comments about the West (and yes, sometimes with just cause). Or what about the President of Iran who has recently reiterated his view that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map? Or what gave the Ayatollah the right to put out an international death warrant against Salman Rushdie?
What I see here is a lot of blinkered hypocrisy and intolerance on both sides.
As an aside, it seems not all Muslims are in agreement here:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698
And... at the other extreme, there is a bounty upon the cartoonists: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/540
I think part of what is at the crux here.. is where these comics were published. They were published in Denmark, a European nation with European values. They were not originally published in the Middle East.. So, to play devil's advocate, should the Danish have operated within Muslim values while publishing in their own society?
As I've said, I believe the comics are highly insulting, and I can understand the outrage. I also feel that it was stupid to publish them... though digging through it deeper... the question does arise.. "How far should the press censor itself?"
Moreover.... It's not as though Muslim newspapers, or public figures, refrain from making highly inflammatory comments about the West (and yes, sometimes with just cause). Or what about the President of Iran who has recently reiterated his view that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map? Or what gave the Ayatollah the right to put out an international death warrant against Salman Rushdie?
What I see here is a lot of blinkered hypocrisy and intolerance on both sides.
As an aside, it seems not all Muslims are in agreement here:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698
And... at the other extreme, there is a bounty upon the cartoonists: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/540
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No. Absolutely not. But to respond to the quetsion, isn't respect for another culture and its wishes part of Danish values? To play devil's advocate ( I am not insulting either you or Xandax of any Danes" if it is not part of their value system then it is perfectly acceptible to publish the cartoons. But then again they should expect a reaction from the culture they offend.dragon wench wrote:I think part of what is at the crux here.. is where these comics were published. They were published in Denmark, a European nation with European values. They were not originally published in the Middle East.. So, to play devil's advocate, should the Danish have operated within Muslim values while publishing in their own society?
I have said before i am all for limiting freedom of speech if it insults others. I am for limiting the Nazis, the KKK, the extremists you name it. Freedom of speech ends when you are start insulting another person. You can not claim freedom of speech and say everybody who isn't orange is inferior.As I've said, I believe the comics are highly insulting, and I can understand the outrage. I also feel that it was stupid to publish them... though digging through it deeper... the question does arise.. "How far should the press censor itself?"
True but can you find on Muslim news paper that has insulted the religion of christ or any concept that Europeans find sacred? Political grand-standing does not equal insulting a cultural tradition.Moreover.... It's not as though Muslim newspapers, or public figures, refrain from making highly inflammatory comments about the West (and yes, sometimes with just cause).
Right and Le Pen called for all Muslims to be expelled. Pim Fortyn said worse. The point is what exactly? Was any thing sacred violated? Was something to be held as an ideal insulted once and then a second time?Or what about the President of Iran who has recently reiterated his view that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map?
Religion and politics are not equals on any level.
That was honestly stupid.Or what gave the Ayatollah the right to put out an international death warrant against Salman Rushdie?
Heard nothing on this matter. However of course there would be people who agree with the ridiculing of the prophet and call themselves muslims. You even have algerians who work for Le Pen in France. Doesn't change the fact that the majority of the islamic world finds it offensive.What I see here is a lot of blinkered hypocrisy and intolerance on both sides.
As an aside, it seems not all Muslims are in agreement here:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698
And... at the other extreme, there is a bounty upon the cartoonists: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/540
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? - Khalil Gibran
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
"We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!" - Winston Churchill
[QUOTE=CM]You heard nothing violent from muslims for 5 months.[/QUOTE]
Well actually...thats not entirely true... As Xandax stated Danish-moslems very much instigated this whole mess by travelling around showing fake pictures...
And when it comes to other violence going on...it always seems to be moslems in focus...whether its bombs in London underground...or riots in Paris...
Still comments like the following one from a successful Iranian immigrant in Sweden brings hope to the future:
"As much as we Iranians hate Islam I dont think anyone else does. You havent even seen the top of the iceberg when it comes to the cruelness, barbarism, obscenity etc of Islam. I hope you're starting to understand why Iranians now since 1979, after 7000 years of living in our beloved homecountry and never going anywhere, are fleeing abroad. Iran was a beautiful and modern country, but Islam crushed Irans culture and traditions. But one day Iran will throw Islam out...for good..."
Well actually...thats not entirely true... As Xandax stated Danish-moslems very much instigated this whole mess by travelling around showing fake pictures...
And when it comes to other violence going on...it always seems to be moslems in focus...whether its bombs in London underground...or riots in Paris...
Still comments like the following one from a successful Iranian immigrant in Sweden brings hope to the future:
"As much as we Iranians hate Islam I dont think anyone else does. You havent even seen the top of the iceberg when it comes to the cruelness, barbarism, obscenity etc of Islam. I hope you're starting to understand why Iranians now since 1979, after 7000 years of living in our beloved homecountry and never going anywhere, are fleeing abroad. Iran was a beautiful and modern country, but Islam crushed Irans culture and traditions. But one day Iran will throw Islam out...for good..."
“Child abuse doesn’t have to mean broken bones and black marks. Young growing tissues are far more vulnerable to carcinogens than those of adults.
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
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fable
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[QUOTE=Karembeu]Well actually...thats not entirely true... As Xandax stated Danish-moslems very much instigated this whole mess by travelling around showing fake pictures... [/quote]
That''s not what Xandax wrote. You either know this, or your hatred is so blinding that you twist whatever you read to suit it. I suggest you read exactly what Xandax wrote on the first page, and compare it to the above.
You know, you're really not showing yourself off too well in this thread. You've made a number of alegations that could be seen as bigotted, and instead of justifying them, you simply jump in with more allegations.
Enough. You've been asked repeatedly to review and justify your own statements in this thread. You have yet to do so. You know that's not the way we operate here in GameBanshee, because you've been around for a good while. You put up some statements, you're expected to respond when questioned with facts. Not doing so will cause you to be regarded here as a troll, in violation of forum rules--someone who just wants to stir up trouble. Stop putting up these allegations by themselves, and start using facts and logic to defend your remarks, as other members do.
That''s not what Xandax wrote. You either know this, or your hatred is so blinding that you twist whatever you read to suit it. I suggest you read exactly what Xandax wrote on the first page, and compare it to the above.
You know, you're really not showing yourself off too well in this thread. You've made a number of alegations that could be seen as bigotted, and instead of justifying them, you simply jump in with more allegations.
Enough. You've been asked repeatedly to review and justify your own statements in this thread. You have yet to do so. You know that's not the way we operate here in GameBanshee, because you've been around for a good while. You put up some statements, you're expected to respond when questioned with facts. Not doing so will cause you to be regarded here as a troll, in violation of forum rules--someone who just wants to stir up trouble. Stop putting up these allegations by themselves, and start using facts and logic to defend your remarks, as other members do.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=fable]That''s not what Xandax wrote. You know, you're really not showing yourself off too well in this thread. You've made a number of alegations that could be seen as bigotted, and instead of justifying them, you simply jump in with more allegations.[/QUOTE]
Read again...
[QUOTE=Xandax]When somebody travells the middle east showing pictures which weren't published, and people demand an appology from somebody else based on that ... can you give it to them?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=fable]Do you know that the vast majority of inmates in US and UK prisons--are Christian? [/QUOTE]
Okay...so now we're getting a bit sidestepped and offtopic...
Christian?!? As in go to church every sunday and read in the bible?!? That kind of christian?!?
Actually if we're speaking about facts, per capita or percentually which really counts, you'll find that "christians" as you put it are underrepresentated in US and UK prisons. The reason the vast majority in prisons are christians is of course because the vast majority of the people in that country are christians...
About the "troll" part...I'll cool down a bit and say that of course there are a lot of nice moslems...in fact the vast majority Im sure... Still it just seems that whenever there's something big happening....something blowing up...Allah is involved somehow... Whether its medias way of showing things the way they want to...I dont know...
Here's an interesting page of satirical cartoons made by Arabs depicting Jews -->[url="http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp"]http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp[/url]
Hypocrisy...yes
Read again...
[QUOTE=Xandax]When somebody travells the middle east showing pictures which weren't published, and people demand an appology from somebody else based on that ... can you give it to them?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=fable]Do you know that the vast majority of inmates in US and UK prisons--are Christian? [/QUOTE]
Okay...so now we're getting a bit sidestepped and offtopic...
Christian?!? As in go to church every sunday and read in the bible?!? That kind of christian?!?
Actually if we're speaking about facts, per capita or percentually which really counts, you'll find that "christians" as you put it are underrepresentated in US and UK prisons. The reason the vast majority in prisons are christians is of course because the vast majority of the people in that country are christians...
About the "troll" part...I'll cool down a bit and say that of course there are a lot of nice moslems...in fact the vast majority Im sure... Still it just seems that whenever there's something big happening....something blowing up...Allah is involved somehow... Whether its medias way of showing things the way they want to...I dont know...
Here's an interesting page of satirical cartoons made by Arabs depicting Jews -->[url="http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp"]http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp[/url]
Hypocrisy...yes
“Child abuse doesn’t have to mean broken bones and black marks. Young growing tissues are far more vulnerable to carcinogens than those of adults.
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
Knowingly subjecting children to it is child abuse.”
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fable
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As Xandax stated Danish-moslems very much instigated this whole mess by travelling around showing fake pictures...
This does *not* equate to Xandax's remark that some Muslims were showing fake pictures in the MidEast to round up support. The key difference, as surely you know, is the phrase instigated the whole mess. Xandax never claimed Muslims showed fake pictures to instigate "the whole mess." The real pictures were published first. The anger was there, first. Then a few people without a sense of responsibility made fake pictures, to further cause problems.
The instigation of the mess--that which started it--was the exceptionally bad taste of the newspapers that ran the political cartoons.
Christian?!? As in go to church every sunday and read in the bible?!? That kind of christian?!?
Of course. My point being that just as there were North African lower class refugees in France who started off riots--Islam being a non-factor--so the vast majority of people in US and UK prisons are Christian--Christianity being a non-factor. If you look for what you don't like in a person, you will find it, whether it's there, or not. That goes for any of us, because the mind is a truly tricky little device that loves to stroke its own ego. And I include myself in that general criticism.
Actually if we're speaking about facts, per capita or percentually which really counts, you'll find that "christians" as you put it are underrepresentated in US and UK prisons.
Um, no they aren't. I read a survey about two years ago on state prisons in the US incarceration system. Christianity was listed as the religion of choice by more than 80% of inmates. Which is actually pretty reflective of the US as a whole. Within that group, there was a further breakdown, according to Methodist, Roman Catholic, Baptist, etc, but I regrettably didn't note those figures down.
Still it just seems that whenever there's something big happening....something blowing up...Allah is involved somehow... Whether its medias way of showing things the way they want to...I dont know...
Stop it right now, please. You're insulting the name of somebody else's god, as well as billions of people. This really isn't necessary. Cool off.
This does *not* equate to Xandax's remark that some Muslims were showing fake pictures in the MidEast to round up support. The key difference, as surely you know, is the phrase instigated the whole mess. Xandax never claimed Muslims showed fake pictures to instigate "the whole mess." The real pictures were published first. The anger was there, first. Then a few people without a sense of responsibility made fake pictures, to further cause problems.
The instigation of the mess--that which started it--was the exceptionally bad taste of the newspapers that ran the political cartoons.
Christian?!? As in go to church every sunday and read in the bible?!? That kind of christian?!?
Of course. My point being that just as there were North African lower class refugees in France who started off riots--Islam being a non-factor--so the vast majority of people in US and UK prisons are Christian--Christianity being a non-factor. If you look for what you don't like in a person, you will find it, whether it's there, or not. That goes for any of us, because the mind is a truly tricky little device that loves to stroke its own ego. And I include myself in that general criticism.
Actually if we're speaking about facts, per capita or percentually which really counts, you'll find that "christians" as you put it are underrepresentated in US and UK prisons.
Um, no they aren't. I read a survey about two years ago on state prisons in the US incarceration system. Christianity was listed as the religion of choice by more than 80% of inmates. Which is actually pretty reflective of the US as a whole. Within that group, there was a further breakdown, according to Methodist, Roman Catholic, Baptist, etc, but I regrettably didn't note those figures down.
Still it just seems that whenever there's something big happening....something blowing up...Allah is involved somehow... Whether its medias way of showing things the way they want to...I dont know...
Stop it right now, please. You're insulting the name of somebody else's god, as well as billions of people. This really isn't necessary. Cool off.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
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Hill-Shatar
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I'd rather hear if Xandax has anything to add before I pick apart his post as well, mostly as it looks like he has had to debate the meaning of his posts repeatedly thus far to dodge misinterpretation of what he might have meant.
I read a survey about two years ago on state prisons in the US incarceration system. Christianity was listed as the religion of choice by more than 80% of inmates.
Do you know any site that might have a similar survey off hand? I'm a little busy at the moment, so I can't really go a-wandering for my own sources today, but I'll try.
Just an interesting tidbit on Christianity, the majority of the people at the lab are not very religious, and when a census came around, we were requested to put ourselves in a religious group, which pretty much everyone does, and there is very rarely an aetheist checkbox. So I know of at least 20-30 Christians who are not very religious at all, or not really christians to begin with.
I read a survey about two years ago on state prisons in the US incarceration system. Christianity was listed as the religion of choice by more than 80% of inmates.
Do you know any site that might have a similar survey off hand? I'm a little busy at the moment, so I can't really go a-wandering for my own sources today, but I'll try.
Just an interesting tidbit on Christianity, the majority of the people at the lab are not very religious, and when a census came around, we were requested to put ourselves in a religious group, which pretty much everyone does, and there is very rarely an aetheist checkbox. So I know of at least 20-30 Christians who are not very religious at all, or not really christians to begin with.
Buy a GameBanshee T-Shirt [url="http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68975"]HERE[/url]! Sabre's [url="http://www.users.bigpond.com/qtnt/index.htm"]site[/url] for Baldur's Gate series' patches and items. This has been a Drive-by Hilling.
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fable
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[QUOTE=Hill-Shatar]Do you know any site that might have a similar survey off hand? I'm a little busy at the moment, so I can't really go a-wandering for my own sources today, but I'll try. [/quote]
No, I found it while doing research at the Philadelphia Library, main branch. It was part of a reference text. I was really looking for something else entirely, but one fascinating fact led to another...
Just an interesting tidbit on Christianity, the majority of the people at the lab are not very religious, and when a census came around, we were requested to put ourselves in a religious group, which pretty much everyone does, and there is very rarely an aetheist checkbox. So I know of at least 20-30 Christians who are not very religious at all, or not really christians to begin with.
That's an excellent point. I know that the US federal penal system not only offers atheism as a choice, but one convict of my acquaintance said it includes Other, too, with Other being taken to mean various forms of paganism (shamanism, Native American worship, Voudoun, Wicca, the Craft, etc). I have no idea if this is standard in state penal institutions, however.
[/quote]No, I found it while doing research at the Philadelphia Library, main branch. It was part of a reference text. I was really looking for something else entirely, but one fascinating fact led to another...
Just an interesting tidbit on Christianity, the majority of the people at the lab are not very religious, and when a census came around, we were requested to put ourselves in a religious group, which pretty much everyone does, and there is very rarely an aetheist checkbox. So I know of at least 20-30 Christians who are not very religious at all, or not really christians to begin with.
That's an excellent point. I know that the US federal penal system not only offers atheism as a choice, but one convict of my acquaintance said it includes Other, too, with Other being taken to mean various forms of paganism (shamanism, Native American worship, Voudoun, Wicca, the Craft, etc). I have no idea if this is standard in state penal institutions, however.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Forgive my ignorence pwease, but I read somewhere that Jesus was an important recognized and revered prophet in Islam, so why do these protestors not get angry when theres caricatures of Jesus everywhere?
"It is not a Commonwealth division, it is an Australian Division. Why, give me two Australian Divisions and I will conquer the world for you!" - The Desert Fox
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dj_venom
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@Fenix: I think it's that they recognise Jesus existed, but don't think of him any more than simply a famous figure for another faith.
As such, they have no rules dictating him in their faith, as they do not perceive him as a critical member in the faith.
I could be wrong here, but I think that's right.
As such, they have no rules dictating him in their faith, as they do not perceive him as a critical member in the faith.
I could be wrong here, but I think that's right.
In memorian: Fiona; Ravager; Lestat; Phreddie; and all of those from the 1500 incident. Lest we forget.
You dont' ask for a peacefull resolution by bringing demands which can't be fulfilled to the table. They wanted the PM to ensure that the responsible people at the newspaper would be punished and that he should appologize for the actions. Something he couldn't do - instead they where told to bring it before the courts which is the only instance in the country which can deem if this was unlawfull or not, and thus not meetings was held. Perhaps he should just have told them what they wanted to hear and done nothing... would that have been better?CM wrote:Xandax answer the question. Answer mine and i will answer yours.
I will do you a favor and answer one of yours. Tolerance only when it fits Islam...interesting. Because what i see here is the following:
1. Muslims ask for a peaceful resolution. Denmark says no.
<snip>
Had they been interested in a peaceful resolution they would have wanted to talk and not wanted to make demands.
And at this time, death threats and bounties on the cartoonists had already been issued forcing them to go underground. So the violence was already quite visible and clear to the population of this country.
Within one month deaththreats had been made forcing the cartoonists to go underground.2. They wait for 5 months. Denmark keeps saying no.
Oh, notice has been taken ealier, not alone due to the death threats, but also the demands made. And *peaceful* protests had also been held aginst the drawings. (Peaceful - strange concept)3. Denmark starts to lose money and jobs. All of a sudden they take notice.
However the egyptian govermental sanctioned boycut is possible in dispute with the WTO agreements, which is why "notice" was taken there. Futher more this boycut was a punishment of a population which had nothing to do with the incident other then living in the same country as the people responsible. It would be like Denmark canceling aid to Palenstine or some other area because a few people there wrote something which offended us. Proportions? I think not.
And this is where the whole tolerance issue jumps into the trash, because these muslims are trying to punish an entier country for the acts of a few and demanding things from governments and royalty which can't be given.
Yet we hear preachings of the fact that we shouldn't judge every muslim based on the actions of a few? Pot. Kettle.
No they have not tried for 5 months. They have demanded for 5 months. Demanded - again - what could not be given.CM] What we have seen is 5 months of arrogance and distaint for what Muslims find sacred. Nobody listened. Rather they added fuel to the fire. [/quote] What we (inhabitans of Denmark) have seen are 5 months of what we percive as childish behaviour with escalating (visible) violence. However wrote: That is not tolerance. You can blame muslims for this all you want. But the bottom line is that the Muslim govts tried for 5 months for a peaceful resolution to the matter. Europe did nothing.
5 months of tolerance in exchange for what? Arrogance? Indifference? No more insults.
When someone insults you tolerate it. If they continue you try a peaceful situation. If that is rebuffed, physical action is the last alternative. After 5 months of no action by Denmark...this is what you get.
You reap what you sow.
And yes - we should expect a reaction. But we should expect it towards the people responsible, and we should expect it to be non-violent. However, neither of these were supplied, the reponse has been increasingly violent and targeting everybody without discriminations.
As I've said repeatedly - we have a history of being able to debate things in this country. One of the things we debate is Islam and the followers integration into this country. A country these people willingly has gone to, which have offered them sancutry from prosecutive governments and so forth. A country where they have had the freedom to practice their religon.
However the debate has been ongoing on where to draw the line of Islamic "laws" or dogmas to mix with danish society. And here the Mohammed drawings play a huge part as we can see.
This is part of what is sacred to us along side Democracy, freedom of speech/press under responsibility, the ability to debate and such elements, so you tell me once again - why should the way muslims worship some for us irrelevant entity decide what can and can not be done in some foreing country.
And why could not the response be non-violent targeting the people who actually had the power to change something about this?
And lastly - just for empashisme.
Why should entier Denmark be targeted for the actions of a few private people within a privately owned buisness, when we shouldn't judge every Muslim and Islam by the acts of some fanatics act with violence and terrorisme in the misguided name of Islam? As I said - pot and kettle. Pot and kettle indeed.
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