my new power party

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:33 pm

Let me start by saying that I dispise thieves, since IMHO they run out of usefulness very early on., and further experience spent on them is experience wasted.

That being said, I do need them for opening locks and dealing with traps. I've thought level 7 is a perfect time to dualclass a thief, since they can get OL and F/R T up to about 90 or higher, and they also gain evasion, a useful ability. My problem in my last game was dealing with those traps after my character had dualclassed out of the thief class, but had not yet gotten his thief skills back (essentially having no thief in the party, which sucks, just ask NobleNick!). So, for my new game, I plan on actually using two of them (weird, eh... read on!).

I plan on having two human characters start off as thieves. The first one will dual class into a cleric at thief level 3, 4 or 5, so that I will have my thief skills back before I even need them. They will be low level skills, but should be good enough for the early game (as I gain some experience with the IWD world, I'm starting to realize how good an essentially single classed cleric is as well, and a cleric with 3, 4 or 5 levels of thief won't be far behind a single classed cleric. There seem to be a lot of undead in this game, and my characters are always taking some damage!). I want to dual as early as possible, without really handicapping my team (either with lack of thief skills since this character will be the only one for a time, or with lack of spells and turning ability). Since my team will include a bard, I might just have him memorize a ton of knock spells and have this character maximize F/R Traps.

The second character will switch from thief to mage at level 8. I had originally thought level 7, but this shouldn't make a difference in the long run of things, and I'm pretty sure a thief gains an extra proficiency at level 8. I also don't think you really need a mage so much in this game, so I do not mind waiting a while longer for a spellchucker.

So far the party is like this:

Thief (3,4,5)>Cleric
Thief (8)>Mage (with ToTL a generalist is probably best... might go illusionist since the bard can pick up any restricted spells)

I'll definitely add in a paladin and a bard, two really fun, powerful classes. I'd also like a druid, but will go multiclass here. I think the party can use more tanks (it's too bad ironskin isn't a spell in this game). This leaves only one slot. As I said, I like tanks, and this party is lacking a pure-classed fighter. I'll probably insert a gnome fighter here, since I've always liked gnomes and they can use that awesome helmet from Khuldahar.

To summarize, I have:

Human Paladin
Half-Elf Fighter/Druid multiclass
Gnome Fighter (see below, might switch)
Human Thief(3,4,5)/Cleric dualclass
Human Thief(8)/Mage dualclass
Half-Elf Bard

Eventually, when both thieves have dualled completely (gaining back their thief abilities), I plan on having the cleric play just like a normal cleric, even wearing heavy armor (you can still search for traps, just not disarm them). The mage will be played just like any mage/thief, shooting arrows while not casting spells.

I would really appreciate responses and input on this party. I'm still pretty much a newb at this game, so please do not spoil me too much. I would really like input on the two thief idea, and what levels I should dualclass at. And please don't suggest to me that I should try backstabbing and sneaking around, it doesn't appeal to me.

Thanks a lot everyone, for both your input and reading through my babbling post (I hope it isn't too bad!).

Would I be better off replacing that gnome fighter with a second paladin? I guess it comes down to what is better: draw upon holy might boosting awesome stats or grandmastery in greatswords...??

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:15 pm

That's a good party. Keep the fighter instead of adding a second paladin.

I'm not entirely sure about your thief dualclassing strategy, but it's worth a shot. Let us know how it turns out.

One other way to possibly get around the dualclass and thief skills quandary would be to start off with a 5 player party and only add a thief later. Adding a thief around Kuldahar would give the other characters a boost of a couple levels, and possibly enable you to dual to cleric or mage or whatever after the tough trap area on Dragon's Eye lvl 5. The only real downside to this is that your pick pockets skill might be too low to get all the goodies in Kuldahar right away without a lot of reloading.

Nothing before the Vale of Shadows really requires a thief, and you can even get by in the Vale without a thief if you don't mind hitting a few traps. You could potentially even add a thief as late as the first level of DE and get decent enough levels to deal with the traps.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:58 pm

Thanks Aerich!

I've started the party, and decided to go with the fighter.

My thief>cleric dualled at level 3, and she's doing really well. As a matter of fact, I'm about to head to Dragon's Eye, and she's my only theif! Her traps skill is around 80 (she's wearing that Belt of Gond) and locks skill is around 40.

The thief>mage dualled at level 7, and is currently a 4th level illusionist. It will be a while until I have a thief with 90+ in both of the skills that matter to me, but hopefully I'll have those levels back before heading to that elf tower (I think I should).

The pocket picking is working well for me because of the Bard. She handles that area, and is a really cool character as well. I plan on using the song that adds 10% to skills whenever I feel I need to look for traps and have difficulty opening locks. If that fails, she's got 3 knock spells memorized right now (and the illusionist has a strength spell ready to cast on my paladin (18/94 strength) or my thief>cleric who would then cast draw upon holy might in an effort to bash some chests).

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:00 pm

update time!

My party just finished the second level of Dragon's Eye. I have been playing on insane difficulty to get these dual classes going.

I dualled the t>c at level 3, and she's currently an 8th level cleric. The t>illusionist dualled at level 7, and just hit level 8 as an illusionist. The game is playing well, and I can sense my party really starting to roll now.

My bard had equipped that amulet that allows an extra 2nd level spell, and memorized 4 knock spells. I never used one of them.

While wearing the gond belt, the t>ill has about 100 in traps and locks skills (can't remember exactly) and if there is ever a problem, the bard can still sing the song that bumps skills by 10%.

Edit: I looked up the party for an accurate report:

Paladin 7
Fighter/Druid 7/8
Thief(3)/Cleric 8 (traps:85 locks:35) <--wearing belt of gond
Gnome Fighter 8
Thief(7)/Illusionist 8 (traps: 100 locks: 85)
Bard 9 (lore: 97 pickpocket 90)

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:20 pm

A good looking party

Concur with Aerich there Krunchy.

It is a good looking party. I too wonder about the dual class venue for a thief. I personally prefer a gnome fighter/thief multiclass. He can use that great helm you can buy from Conlon. I know some hate the experience split that multiclass have because a m/c character ends up a couple of levels lower by the end. But a fighter/thief will usually only lag a couple of levels in the fighter department (depending on how many of the extra modules (HOW & TotL) you go through. But you're never without a thief when you need one and the extra hit points are far better (IMHO) in the long run. It will be interesting to see how yours turns out.
Dualing is something that has some good points and I am not knocking it. I am using dual class for the first time, I had a fighter shift to mage at level seven and he has worked pretty well so far. I am halfway through TotL and he has become quite deadly.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:30 pm

Thanks Philos.

The thing is, if you read the post updating this party (the one right above yours), you'll see I never was without a thief either.

And I usually dig multiclassed characters, but I hate multiclassing thieves. If you m/c a thief, you will be dumping half of your xp into the thief class which (the way I play the game) is a complete waste since I get everything I want out of a thief by level 7. I never backstab, never flank, and only use thieves for locks and traps. Lucky for me, that 7th level in thief grants evasion as well. I view this completely as a bonus.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:53 pm

Ah, I see it now

I didn't see that one. You must have posted while I was writing mine. I got interrupted (I was at lunch but still at work) by a phone call, so I had the composing screen up for quite a while (well over 40 minutes). But I do understand your reasons for not wanting to put too much experience into theiving. Like you, thieves are low on my list when it comes to classes. I don't like pickpocketing, and you can't set traps (as in BG II) so they do have quite limited use in IWD I for certain.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:53 pm

I'm with Philos about the multiclass gnome fighter/thief, although I definitely concur, krunchyfrogg, with feeling that it's a "waste" after a certain level. Last game I played was entirely on insane to offset a dualclass F[13]/M[x] and 3 multiclass characters including the above-mentioned gnome F/T.

I tend to use the F/T character as my primary archer, thus convincing myself that the thief character is fulfilling a useful combat function.

You won't need knock spells if you have about 80% or over in open locks, as you do. Pretty well all locks can be bashed except some on DE lvl 5. Spend those spell slots on something more useful, like Mirror Image, Acid Arrow, or A's Scorcher.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:06 am

Thanks Aerich (same guy on Ironworks?). I don't have any knock spells memorized anymore, now that both thief classes are active.

I kept the bard memorizing them just in case (my open locks was low with only a 3rd level thief in the party who has spent all her points on trap finding skills), but now it's all miror images and acid arrows.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:51 pm

Yep, same guy from IW.

Are you happy with the gnome fighter? What weapons is he/she using?

I used a single-classed gnome fighter once as my main tank, and rocked the house. My "secondary" tank that game was another single classed fighter.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:48 pm

right now he's using a bastard sword of action (or something like that) that grants an extra attack per round.

I have a +4 greatswrod in case I run into something that my bastard sword can't hurt, but I think the extra attack adds up to more damage than the +4 over the +1.

He also uses some bow that grants 3 or 4 attacks a round (I can't remember it's name) at a distance, making melee encounters much easier.

I think my next game will have more fighters. I love this party, but I think if it had another ranged attacker (maybe a fighter or elf ranger) it would be even better.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:50 am

Or a *cough* fighter/thief.

Fighters rock at mid-game levels, but a high level spellcaster just gives you so many more options than a high level fighter.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:59 am

Question: I just fixed a bridge, and want to go meet some guy named Joril.

What stage of the game am I roughly in (near the beginning, midgame, or close to the end)? I don't want to get too far without starting HoW or TotL first.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:57 am

Stage of the game; significant spoilers

I'd call it late mid-game. I don't count it as endgame until you enter Lower Dorn's, and the real endgame doesn't occur until you use quest items to open up another area; the passage to the newly-opened area is one-way.

Have you taken out Krilag yet? Krilag has the first of the quest items you need, Joril has the second, and the remaining ones are in Lower Dorns. You can grab all of them and still go back to Kuldahar for HoW - just don't use the items in their quest-required manner before you go back to do HoW/TotL.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:01 am

Yeah, I got a badge from Krilag. I can't believe he's considered a "boss" though... he was a piece of cake. Hopefully the others will be more of a challenge.

I want to explore this whole map first, maybe take a dip into Lower Dorn's Deep, and then see if Orrick's stock has changed at all (it seems to change with almost every chapter). Then maybe I'll just start HoW (this seems like a logical point in the game).

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:19 pm

Good time for HoW

Aerich pegged it perfect, late mid-game. Depending on how close your characters are to leveling, this is good time to move over to HoW. If you are close to leveling for a couple of characters you might want to take that "dip" into a couple of sections of Lower Dorn to get the level and then switch. Krunchy, you're sure right about Krilag, pretty wimpy for a "lieutenant" with a badge. My Paladin took him down one on one with little damage.

My gnome F/T has been a good sniper. I had him take axe and crossbow for weapons. The +2 throwing axe that automatically returns (can't remember its name) has made a good "missle" weapon for him now. Hardly uses his crossbow anymore.

Aerich · Post by **Aerich** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:06 pm

I've done that before, and switched back to crossbow after finding crossbows that shoot more than one bolt per round. It's nice with bolts of lightning and bolts of biting.

Yes, the other bosses are tougher than Krilag. Three of the last four have significant spellcasting ability, and they all have good supporting casters (especially if you increase the difficulty level over normal).