143 Dead in Shiite Shrine Bombings

smass · Post by **smass** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:42 am

The lastest bombings:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ea/iraq_39

Truly horrific. Brings up a issue I have been meaning to raise. I think there is a possibility that some of these bombings aimed at Shiite Muslims may have actually been perpetrated by other muslims in order to undermine the fledgling Iraqi government.

This is not my area of expertise - so I am asking for perspective on the the issue of Muslims killing Muslims. I understand that there are many different sects and rivalries - but what is the actual situation?

I have previously expressed my outrage on the issue of suicide bombing of civilians - whether it is directed at Jews, Muslims, Christians, whoever... a truly horrific situation

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:02 am

From what I've read, the differences between the Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq are not quite what Western media has made of them - a lot have intermarried, and the media has given a false impression with declaring this area Shi'a and that area Sunni, and so forth (they've failed to mention one hotspot had a large number of Christians). What may be going on is actually a version of the Hatfields and the McCoys - a power struggle between the clans, and not just in one localised area, either. But with how poorly the media is covering Iraq, it is hard to say for certain.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:42 pm

I wish I could agree--but history teaches us that's it infinitely easier to resolve the most lengthy conflict between feuding clans than differences between religions or religious sects. But it appears that there are major differences between the Shi'ite and Sunni. Here's what Edward Rice's Eastern Definitions has to say about that, in part:

"The Shi'a, who include a vast number of sects, developed from an early controversy over the role of 'Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, the fourth khalif...At the crisis precipitated by the Prophet's death, the leadership of the community and the succession went to his closest friend, Abu Bakr, to whom he had given the responsibility of directing the Act of Prayer. Abu Bakr was thus the first khalif or successor...When Omar was murdered, 'Ali was elected khalif but wa unable to gain recognition and support from rival factions, and thus a split in Islam began that has survived to this day. He submitted to arbitration...however a group with the Shi'a, the Kharijites, who had previously backed him, now turned against his cause and assassinated him...

"Broad generalizations are unfortuante but inescapable. Sunni Islam may be described as more legalistic, scholastic and formalistic, its doctrines being more easily codified and rationalized; its structure more hierarchal. On the other hand, Shi'a Islam runs more to the spontaneous and emotional. Shi'ism, though descended from the Prophet Muhammad, shows an even more intense devotion to the tragic house of 'Ali; the massacre of 'Ali and his sons Hasan and Husayn are celebrated yearly with much pageantry, emotion and mystical release..."

Traditionally, the two groups have a very long history of antagonism. Since religion permeates Islamic society, being a Sunni in a Shi'ite community means that you (in theory, at least) do not recognize that community's laws, and the reverse holds true. Islamic governments are usually Sunni, and have shown immense distrust of any Shi'ite population on their soil. There have been claims of mistreatment by the Sunni community in Iran, though these are as nothing compared to the Shi'a government's persecution of the Ba'hai. The Shi'a tried to revolt after Hussain was driven back from Kuwait, and they have wanted a separate nation, with closer ties to Iran, for some time. How this will all work it is anybody's guess, but whatever strife is sown between these factors in Iraq is bound to strain and possibly break attempts to force Iraq into a single, unified state without a strong man at the top. Just my POV.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:05 pm

Interesting. It's also happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is looking more like sectarian violence.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:32 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
Interesting. It's also happening in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is looking more like sectarian violence.

True, regarding Afghanistan. Afghanistan is an "artificial" country created by the involvement of the big powers in the past. It actually harbors fourteen ethnically different groups of varying size, each with its own unique culture, language, clothing, traditions, etc. The Pashtuun are the largest and have been put in government in the past by force, so the others don't like them and want their own day in the sun--plus, a little (or a lot of) revenge.

Pakistan is more a matter of Sunni vs sectarian groups--remember, Pakistan was formed as a nation catering to the interests of Islam, when terrible religious riots broke out against Muslims after the formation of India in the late 1940s. Sunni hardliners perceive the country as drifting too far away from its roots; and they have a point. However, that doesn't provide an answer when the minority want a strict Sunni state, while the majority are perfectly happy being sectarian Muslims in a less dogmatic nation.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:17 pm

I was referring to anti-Shia violence. It's also occurring elsewhere.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:06 pm

Originally posted by Sojourner
I was referring to anti-Shia violence. It's also occurring elsewhere.

My mistake. I thought you were referring simply to large scale violence within the country. But anti-Shi'ite violence is not uncommon in Sunni nations, and vice versa. It's always been there. I wonder whether these days it's simply being reported more as "newsworthy," because of the escalating Shi'ite unease back in Iraq.

I mentioned about a year ago, here, that there were three separate nations in Iraq, with problems in bordering Turkey and Iran that could easily turn it into a major bloodbath: the sectarian Sunni of the middle, the Kurds of the north, and the Shi'ite of the south. It requires great handling finesse, and I'm not convinced that the Bush administration has that kind of trained staff nor the correct attitude to understand the situation. Hopefully, the UN will get involved, and soon.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:17 am

And 25 were killed yesterday in Pakistan. This is just sick. Its a bloody religious occasion. Sunnis even see it as a sacred period. These sick ****s need to be dealt with in horrific manners.

Ironically Fable the sunni religious leaders were against the creation of Pakistan. It was the moderates or liberals who wanted Pakistan created. Sadly the religious leaders have too strong a hold now for people to believe that they once wished to remain part of India.

Objulen · Post by **Objulen** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:49 am

Shi'ites and Sunni have had bad blood between them for centures in a similar fasion as Catholics and Protestants. Some raise above, but others do not, and I doubt that anyone but Muslims carried out the bulk of these attacks in Iraq. Consider the fact that many religious Protestants today don't consider Catholicism Christianity, and vice-versa, and that the Middle Eastern nations have been more prone to religiously motivated violence that America in the last few decades.

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:59 am

That just proves my bleak view of humanity- No two cultures can exist in the same space for long. I think history has proven that, and I think that the U.S. will implode in the next century or so (if the world still exists, which is very doubtful).

Any time you need cheering up.........you can always count on me.

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:02 am

That was bleak Morlock - but you are on to something.

I guess what dissapointments me the most is the role that religion takes in polarizing people.

I guess it comes down to the "us vs. them" outlook that religion and nationalism seem to foster. Unfortunately it seems to be human nature to want to be part of a group - and the "not one of us" viewpoint that follows. It is easy to hate and kill those who think differently than you. Most major religions preach peace and love. The problem is that the religion often gets twisted and used by hate mongers and opportunists. Groups of people are so easily manipulated that it is scary. By no means is this phenomenon exclusive to the middle east. Its just that the hypocracy of the whole thing is so blatant.

IMHO if Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed were able to be consulted they would unaminously condemn these acts of violence and hate perpetrated in the name of their god.

"Religion is the opium of the masses" - a statement that I agree with. This is unfortunate - and I have no solution - hence I am starting to develop a "bunker mentality" myself. I used to try to see the good in everyone and have an optimistic view of human nature. I still think most human beings are perfectly fine on a one on one basis - its when they get together behind a cause that group dynamics make them truly dangerous.

And that folks - is the end of my diatribe - sorry for the downer...

Morlock · Post by **Morlock** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:53 am

Originally posted by smass
IMHO if Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed were able to be consulted they would unaminously condemn these acts of violence and hate perpetrated in the name of their god.

"Religion is the opium of the masses" - a statement that I agree with. This is unfortunate - and I have no solution - hence I am starting to develop a "bunker mentality" myself. I used to try to see the good in everyone and have an optimistic view of human nature. I still think most human beings are perfectly fine on a one on one basis - its when they get together behind a cause that group dynamics make them truly dangerous.

Problem is Chrisitanity and Islam preach to conquer others, and Judaism preachs supremecy over non jews. They don't work together, if all preach that we're better than you.

And lately there has been alot more talk of back to basic, alot more religious talk, and alot more extreme religious talk. I think The Passion is just Gibson trying to increase Christian power in face of Islam.

Whcih is why, unlike many others here, I do believe in god. I have no faith in the sutpidity of humanity.

smass · Post by **smass** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:15 am

I believe in god as well. Organized religion is another story entirely. I guess it is the institution that troubles me. Spirituality, love for fellow man, tolerance - these should be the things that organized religion focuses on - not driving people apart - or worse - killing them...

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:27 am

Originally posted by Morlock
And lately there has been alot more talk of back to basic, alot more religious talk, and alot more extreme religious talk. I think The Passion is just Gibson trying to increase Christian power in face of Islam.

And that's all we need in the US (NOT). Yet another Great Awakening.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:27 am

It's just a movie. It's pretty much straight outa a book thats been in circulation for quite some time. Even I'm a complete anti Religous person and I find nothing wrong with the movie.

America is tired of being "Awakened" we know what we want and that is a stable economy and being able to never have to worry about getting blown up on the way to the supermarket.

I believe that those religions or cultures that cant live near each other are old and well wrong. Look at America the young youthful country... Boiling pot of religions races and such.

Blacks living next to whites, muslims and jews, nazi's and liberalists... All in the same city. No one blowin any one up...

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:00 pm

Yes, it is just a movie. But a quick read through the hometown paper reveals that the local churches regard it as much more.

Sytze · Post by **Sytze** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:07 pm

And so do the jews, who feel as if they are getting the blame now.
Plus they already are quite upset with the way people look at them because of the current conflicts...