Are you a feminist?

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 7:46 am

I thought I would start this thread because I feel that feminism is a much-misunderstood subject. Many women hesitate admitting or down right deny that they are feminists when surely we all ought to be feminists of one shade or another.

I am a feminist – that is to say I believe that woman are equal in all relevant senses to men have equal rights and that any inequality between the sexes ought to be removed.

The term ‘feminism’ in a narrow sense ‘refers to attempts to attain equal legal and political rights for women, while in its broadest sense it refers to any theory which sees the relationship between the sexes as one of inequality, subordination, or oppression, and which aims to identify and remedy the sources of that oppression.’ (OCP)

I would subscribe to both the narrow and the broad senses of the term as it is defined above.

How do you feel about feminism?

Do you think the balance have now swung too far and that the emphasis ought to be on men’s rights?

Why do you think that feminism has a bad name?

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:00 am

I think that feminism is common sense - women equal to men, obviously.

I do not think that the balance has swung nearly far enough yet...Many women get the same pay as men in their offices, I suspect - but look at culture: Who's your favourite female guitarist? Who's your favourite female painter?
It is the creative fields, IMO, where women are still not accepted, for some reason - and are novel just for the femininity...

As for feminism's bad name, it is down to individuals. Feminism just seems to be a magnet for miserable, wierd, grumpy women who have had miserable lives and hate the world (but I generalise

)

I think that the Female Eunuch is partly to blame - to have as a political bible such a ridiculously naive and meandering personal outburst is a great hindrance to an ism. Germaine Greer drains credibility from feminism whenever she makes an unprecedented ideological u-turn on TV...

And most importantly, Julie Birchill. A thousand agonising deaths on Julie Birchill and her clan.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:31 am

*BURNS HIS BRA*!

Originally posted by Tom
How do you feel about feminism?

Well the feminist movement I view as already having its effect, women can vote, women predominantly get paid the same as men and women don't get disrespected much more than either sex. As frogus says perhaps it hasn't swung far enough but it has at least swung.

So I'm not really sure what feminism can acheive any more bar tipping the scales too far the other way. I'm all for equality but when equality means women having everything better than men it kind of defys the point a little. Lets face it their smarter, prettier and also have basic grooming skills instilled from birth, as Michael Moore put it, men can lift heavy objects and that's about our only function.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:37 am

I am not a feminist, for two reasons:

1. The term has been occupied by a specific faction in Sweden, and the dominating feminist theory here is the biological determinist feminism. This perspective is also the one that the universities courses in "gender theory" focus on. However, in the era of postgenomics and proteonomics, the very idea of genetic and biological determination of complex behaviour has no scientific support. It is noteworthy that the leading people in Swedish feminism are media people and culture personalities. No scientist, especially not in the life sciences or the behavioural sciences. In general, Swedish feminism focus on the wrong issues and lobby for inefficient strategies, IMO. So it has a point for me to take a stance that distance myself from these factions and their political agendas.

2. I do not like the principal idea that the concept of equality shall be named after, and associated with, only one gender.

I am absolutely for equal rights, equal opportunities for everyone regardless of gender, ethicity, sexual orientation, hair colour, whatever. To me, women's rights have no more and no less priority than other groups rights.

[color=CC00CC]Will write more and reply to Tom's more specific questions when I've finished with the reserach plan I'm curently struggling with....[/color]

Littiz · Post by **Littiz** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:44 am

We are different. We have different attitudes (in average), different goals to reach.
Female guitarists, you say, @Frogus?
I see no "acceptance" issues, here. In my experience, men are usually (again, in average) better guitar players.
Probably they are, for some reason, more motivated.
And the difference is way bigger for drummers.
I've never seen a female drummer reach top level of virtuosism. (If one exists, this doesn't change the point).

BUT, there are women who prove to be exceptional pianists or violinists, or singers, most likely.

Differences, attitudes.
Why in Italy only men are forced to serve in the military ranks?
(women may join somehow, but it's their choice...)

The same civil rights for women and men, the same "value" for their lives?
Of course.
Negating the differences between sexes?
Senseless. Yes, feminism has gone too far, IMHO.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:48 am

I agree with Sleep and CE (especially her closing statement). The movement has achieved much over the world, though not everywhere, and once equality is achieved, there is no point in bringing it up again. Some women use it as an excuse to justify a low paycheck, when in reality, she was just slacking off. (Just an example) In many countries with feminist movements, equal voting rights, equal job oppertunities, equal judicial oppurtunities, etc have been achieved.

I am seriously opposed to the feminist movement using it as an excuse or keep pointing at it when theyve done something wrong and point it out as a sexist fault.

I am pro equality regardless of sex, race, religion, ethnicity, etc. There is no reason why inequalities should be implemented, because in the end, we are all human, we all have souls, and we are the same.

Bloodstalker · Post by **Bloodstalker** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:55 am

I believe that women, men, and any different racial group of either sex should be treated equal as people, and paid for their qualifications and job performance in the work force.

I think it has done a lot in bringing womens rights and pay scales closer to what they should have been from the start IMO. But, I don't understand the radical branches of the feminist movement. From my own experiences, a few women seem to believe that simply being noticed as being female is in itself degrading to them. It's almost like they think that the only way to acheive equal footing is to deny their gender to a certain degree.

The thing that annoys me is when I get yelled at or cussed out for opening a door for a woman who might be walking into a building and have her hands full so that opening the door herself could be problematic. I do the same thing for anyone in that instance, male or female.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:58 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
and we are the same.

In what respect?

There will always be a certain level of segregation in society between class, race and sex. There are fringes of society you will never touch regardless of logical arguments or persuasive methods. It's amazing how much the feminist movement has acheived over such a short period of time, however they seem to have lost most of their purpose, I figure it will fizzle out.

There are many reasons for the feminist movement and most of those cultural reasons have died away,

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:00 am

Originally posted by Bloodstalker
The thing that annoys me is when I get yelled at or cussed out for opening a door for a woman who might be walking into a building and have her hands full so that opening the door herself could be problematic. I do the same thing for anyone in that instance, male or female.

You get that too? Silly really isn't it, I automatically open doors for everyone, why pray tell is it offensive to ones gender to be polite and open a door?

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:00 am

I thought I would start this thread because I feel that feminism is a much-misunderstood subject. Many women hesitate admitting or down right deny that they are feminists when surely we all ought to be feminists of one shade or another.

@Tom, this is one of those instances where dictionary definitions are at variance with cultural definitions. "Feminism" does indeed have the meanings you've stated, but is practice it is often understood as "The theory that women are superior and somehow more central to the existence of the human race than men." Some feminists would add, "...and deserving of superior treatment." These people have set the agenda for the consideration of feminism over the last several decades, even while many women who aren't feminists in this radical sense achieved positions of great authority and responsibility.

As for feminism's bad name, it is down to individuals. Feminism just seems to be a magnet for miserable, wierd, grumpy women who have had miserable lives and hate the world (but I generalise )

I think you have a point, @Frogus. "Feminist empowerment" is best seen as a process of simply treating people as people, without regard to sex, race, etc. When we bring in the argument that "you should stand up and be counted because..." then add any qualifying phrase (you're a woman, etc), we're just exchanging old labels for new. And at least some of the women who count themselves feminists--the more polarized, man-hating kind--do so simply because they've made bad decisions in their lives that they can't accept as problems (in part) of their own making.

I've had experience with these radical feminists of the Z Budapest persuasion, via Wicca. As some may recall in an earlier thread, I am a Wiccan (and a Gardnerian witch). My first coven experience was with a Dianic group. They're not Wiccans (whatever they may claim), since Wiccans believe in equality; they're radical feminist witches. They have an agenda that includes regarding women as equivalent to men in the RCC and some other Judeo-Christian-Islamic groups: the only proper conduits for religious authority, and innately superior to men. I lasted less than a year with them, as you might guess. I could no more countenance men being treated in such a fashion than women in mainstream Western churches.

That said, there are still large sections of Western culture that do not accept equality of gender. For example, many Anglican priests kept their rites but left their church, joining the RCC, when the last archbishop allowed women to become ordained. And when we move outside Western culture, matters become much worse.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:05 am

Originally posted by fable
And when we move outside Western culture, matters become much worse.

That is a good point fable. Look at Afghanistan for instance where women are basically slaves to men and can not even show their faces. Sad.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:08 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
That is a good point fable. Look at Afghanistan for instance where women are basically slaves to men and can not even show their faces. Sad.

This is exactly what I was going to say. You can debate feminism all you like but it doesn't change the fact that women are slaves and second class citizens all over the world.

Also, I'm always polite to people who hold doors open for me. That's just good manners.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:10 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
In what respect?

There will always be a certain level of segregation in society between class, race and sex. There are fringes of society you will never touch regardless of logical arguments or persuasive methods. It's amazing how much the feminist movement has acheived over such a short period of time, however they seem to have lost most of their purpose, I figure it will fizzle out.

There are many reasons for the feminist movement and most of those cultural reasons have died away,

Heh. Funny...I actually had a feeling someone would ask something along these lines when I posted that.

You are right, there will be segregation...but they are wrong to do that. People are people. Our differences are either skin deep, or just belief, or perhaps on chromosome...but in the end, how much does it matter? We all have a soul. We are all people. We all think, we all have feelings, we are all living, we all die. We all suffer, we all smile, cry, laugh, frown, etc. All the differences that cause segregation are wrong. The only segregation I approve of is that of the criminals to the common public. And that is for safety for the common public. Segregation will always be around because of certain economic systems, perhaps some closed mindedness, perhaps its just fate. But it is simply impossible to balance ALL forms of segration, this I know.

And, yes, if feminism stays true to its original goals, then it will fizzle out. However if the term still being used as an excuse or revenge, the term, itself wont die.

Re: Opening doors: Heh, Ive never been burned by it. No one has ever yelled at me. I open doors for anyone aswell, but I have noticed that I tend to wait longer for women though.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:16 am

Originally posted by Enchantress
This is exactly what I was going to say. You can debate feminism all you like but it doesn't change the fact that women are slaves and second class citizens all over the world.

Also, I'm always polite to people who hold doors open for me. That's just good manners.

True indeed but the strange thing is you don't see very many feminists being proactive outside of the comfortable and easy countries

Glad to hear it

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:22 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
We all have a soul.

Relative to if one believes in a soul, obviously

Balancing is impossible when free will, money and people are involved.

And, yes, if feminism stays true to its original goals, then it will fizzle out.

I was suggesting it was a cultural creation due to a confluence of ideologies and freedom of thought, culture has changed, its original goals are nothing to mock (although why waste so many bras?

) but culture has changed so much I do wonder if perhaps the motivation and ideology of feminism should be re-analysed.

Re: Opening doors: Heh, Ive never been burned by it. No one has ever yelled at me. I open doors for anyone aswell, but I have noticed that I tend to wait longer for women though.

[/b][/QUOTE]

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:24 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
True indeed but the strange thing is you don't see very many feminists being proactive outside of the comfortable and easy countries

Glad to hear it

Seriously, they would be severely reprimanded, beaten even killed. Unfortunately it's true in many many third world countries. Crimes against women aren't even investigated.

I read a true story once about a Jordanian woman who fell in love with a Christian man, (but never kissed him or lost her virginity) and was murdered by her own family for the shame she'd brought upon them.

How women are treated in other countries is terrifying.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:29 am

Originally posted by Enchantress
How women are treated in other countries is terrifying.

Very true, it is and I do think that something should be done, I have to leave work now anyway, I'll add more later.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:34 am

Originally posted by Enchantress
I read a true story once about a Jordanian woman who fell in love with a Christian man, (but never kissed him or lost her virginity) and was murdered by her own family for the shame she'd brought upon them.

How women are treated in other countries is terrifying.

Very true. I think we need then to make a distinction between "empowering the unempowered" (*not* just women in many countries) and feminism as he relates to those who get together for an expensive, lengthy lunch, and complain about how bad their lot is.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:37 am

Originally posted by Enchantress
I read a true story once about a Jordanian woman who fell in love with a Christian man, (but never kissed him or lost her virginity) and was murdered by her own family for the shame she'd brought upon them.

God...what a terrible shame. This is not the norm, and with every passing year, I have heard and believe in my heart that Christians and Muslims, alike, are accepting one another. With 2 religions that have had such a harsh history, I pray that understanding and acceptance is continuing to expand between the two religions. Everything Ive personally experienced has involved great understanding and great friendships.

But I digress...just thought Id say that, because it is so close to my heart.

@Sleep And as time evolves, everything changes. There are some conflicts that occur because thoughts havent changed with them. In other words, yes, as time goes on, we have to constantly re-analyze everything.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 9:45 am

Originally posted by C Elegans
I am not a feminist, for two reasons:

1. The term has been occupied by a specific faction in Sweden, and the dominating feminist theory here is the biological determinist feminism. This perspective is also the one that the universities courses in "gender theory" focus on. However, in the era of postgenomics and proteonomics, the very idea of genetic and biological determination of complex behaviour has no scientific support. It is noteworthy that the leading people in Swedish feminism are media people and culture personalities. No scientist, especially not in the life sciences or the behavioural sciences. In general, Swedish feminism focus on the wrong issues and lobby for inefficient strategies, IMO. So it has a point for me to take a stance that distance myself from these factions and their political agendas.

2. I do not like the principal idea that the concept of equality shall be named after, and associated with, only one gender.

Feminism is about equality for women. Surely that must imply that feminism also aims at equality for men at the same time.
If feminism was for the superiority of women then that would of course be a discriminatory theory. I agree with both CE and Frogus that feminism it self has been damaged by individuals. That should not obscure the fact that debate on how to implement equality between the sexes is necessary and complicated.

In Europe about half the undergraduates in science are women but when we reach a professional level only about 7 % is women.
It is certain that women earn less than men. It is hard to tell whether that is because women tend to go for jobs that are lower paid to start with or whether it is because they are discriminated against. One thing is for certain though – if you look at the top levels in any kind of field – it is invariably occupied overwhelmingly by men. If you look at board level directors of companies in Britain only a couple of percent are women. In politics, medicine, teaching, journalism the picture is the same as in academia – it is male dominated.

Originally posted by Littiz

Yes, feminism has gone too far, IMHO.

I would be interested to know more precisely how men are discriminated against? You mention the army – sure it is a source of inequality – but it has hardly come around as a result of feminism. In fact it might well be argued that it is discriminating against women since the premise that underlies the drafting of only men is that women are not suited for the army.

Originally posted by Tybaltus
Some women use it as an excuse to justify a low paycheck, when in reality, she was just slacking off. (Just an example)

An interesting case – there are hundreds of cases in the courts at the moment where gross discrimination against a woman is shown to take place.

In my opinion there is a lot left for feminists, or equal rights campaigners if you prefer, to do in so-called developed nations.

Originally posted by fable

@Tom, this is one of those instances where dictionary definitions are at variance with cultural definitions. "Feminism" does indeed have the meanings you've stated, but is practice it is often understood as "The theory that women are superior and somehow more central to the existence of the human race than men." Some feminists would add, "...and deserving of superior treatment." These people have set the agenda for the consideration of feminism over the last several decades, even while many women who aren't feminists in this radical sense achieved positions of great authority and responsibility.

I think this true. What I don’t understand is how easily the term has come to take on this meaning. Could it be because such obviously false and easily ridiculed ideas are easier to deal with?