140 dead in Moscow hostage, death toll still rising...

[Littiz]

I don't need that little lesson, Thorin.
I know things are that way.
This doesn't mean I have to conform with them.
The word "humanity" that I used was meant to be read "basic compassion".
I gave it for granted.

Don't believe it if you want, but I'd never, under any circumstances,
go killing innoncent kids.
I'm not religious and I've got no things to be sure upon, but this one.
Maybe I'm different from you.

[fable]

This, from the BBC's homepage:

"Russian troops surround refugee camps on Chechnya's border, as a crackdown against militants goes on after the Moscow hostage crisis."

Does anyone besides me see this as the thin wedge leading down to the tit-for-tat brutality of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

[Nightmare]

Originally posted by fable
Does anyone besides me see this as the thin wedge leading down to the tit-for-tat brutality of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict?

Unfortunitly, yes. And that conflict hasn't ended, and an end isn't in sight either. And here's another that might possibly spring up.

[fable]

The lower house of the Russian Duma (Parliament) has agreed to a bill restricting publication or broadcast of any materials deemed to offer the views of Chechyn separatists. This is also likely to pass the upper house, shortly.

[Lazarus]

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield
. . .

Its time for you to come out of your happy to do dah world and into the real world. People die everyday, alot of them are innocent. People lose their grandparents, their parents, their siblings, their children, their relatives everyday. People die in wars . Innocent people die in wars. Cities are bombed into pulp.

Humans have always killed each other and will continue to kill each other. Its natural. . Animals kill each other, often those of the same species. Lions fight over and kill their competitor in dominance of a pride. They kill the children of their compettitors. Pacifism, ever lasting peace, is just a dream, that will never come true.

Face it, people die. Sometimes one has to kill or be killed. War is needed, agressors can be justified.

. . .

Well, I guess I will join Littiz in his "happy to do dah world."

@Thorin: "Humans have always killed each other and will continue to kill each other" - ? Well, with an attitude like that, I guess they sure will.

Personally, I see little hope for resolution of the Russia/Chechnya issue (or the Isreal/Palestine issue for that matter), but what I will not do is simply fall back on an attitude that says: "well, that's just the way it is." No. There are acts of terrorism and evil being perpetrated (on all sides, as far as I can see), and the most important thing for each of us to do is see them for what they are, and morally condemn them.

As to the specifics of this thread: What the Chechen kidnappers did was an atrocity, and the guilt of the deaths incurred is theirs - not the Russian government's. What the Russians have done in Chechnya is also wrong, but it cannot and does not justify the intentional use of innocents (civilians) as a parley tool for political gain.

[fable]

@Lazarus, given that Chechnya has been overrun by the Russian army and is currently being used in part as a sort of combination slave plantation and whorehouse by the soldiers, without any recourse--what would you suggest the Chechyns do?

[ThorinOakensfield]

@Thorin: "Humans have always killed each other and will continue to kill each other" - ? Well, with an attitude like that, I guess they sure will.

Yes and that is my point. It won't end because its natural. Like I said, we can't tell a tiger to stop killing defensless baby dears because they are cute and young and helpless. Its nature, and so is killing. That doesn't make it good or right but people will do it.

Unless you can make a happy perfect world where everybody is equal has their own country or whatever, all the laws benefit them, they can do whatever they want to, then we may get close to getting rid of this natural state, but that isn't going to happen.

[fable]

Amnesty International just did a 15 minute interview on Deutsche Welle radio. AI has decided to go into the lion's den: they're starting a campaign in Russia itself, beginning in Moscow, to get human rights investigated in Chechnya. AI's Secretary General, Irene Kahn, spoke of how all-pervasive and common torture is by the Russian troops and the Russian-installed police in Chechnya, and how constant abuses are never investigated. She also mentioned several instances of Russian reporters, gathering evidence of torture, who were themselves hauled to police stations, tortured, and subsequently thrown out of Chechnya. Random killings, family members who are picked up for "questioning" and never turn up again, rape, village burnings, army-sanctioned robbery, etc, are all common. Nothing has been done to redress any of these crimes. As I mentioned above, Chechnya has become a sanctioned hell hole run by the Russian armed forces, and ignored by everyone else.

If you're interested in what's going on in Chechnya, I strongly suggest you check out at least the summary of the 56-page report produced by Amnesty International. Both the summary and the report can be found here. You might also want to check here,, here, and here.

And for anybody who says that what the Chechyns did in the Moscow theater was horrific: I agree. But again, I have to ask: given the complete lack of interest by the rest of the world, even the praise provided by Shrub-Bush for the Russian actions, what course is left open for the Chechyns beside terrorism?

(Please don't simply reply "I don't know, but it's wrong!" If we condemn somebody's actions when their family's been killed and their property stolen by invading soldiers, we at least owe 'em a suggestion of what they should have done, instead. There's been a lot of condemnation here by people who are justifiably incensed at the Moscow theater incident, but not one has said what the Chechyns should have done to focus the attention of the world on how their country and culture has been dismantled by invaders, and to gain back their land. Let's have some reasonable alternatives that fit the current situation, instead of pious shouts of anger and dismay.)

[Weasel]

From my stand point, the Chechyns should not have lowered theirselfs to the level of the Russian..(correction the Russian Military)

The targeting of civilians. This to me is what separates a "Freedom Fighter" from a "Terrorist". This group, which I will state here, I do not believe represents all Chechyns, stepped over the line from "Freedom Fighter" to the grey area of becoming a "Terrorist Group". In my eyes they are no better than the Russian Military.


Certain limits must be set..(morals that all civilized people agree to) and I for one say the targeting of civilians on propose is wrong.


As to what other ways the Chechys could fight back (Not get World Attention) is to target the Russian Military. They are paid, they are the ones there doing the crimes against the Chechyns. IMHO they are legal targets. I would go as far as to say even the bases in Russia it's self should be legal targets for them.

Now to "Getting World Attention"...I see no way they can. Period. Tibet is a great example of how much the world cares. I'm willing to bet most of the world feels sorry for Tibet, but it does them no good to feel sorry. They took the high road and tried to get peaceful action...which failed. If they had targeted the Chinese Military instead..they most likely would had failed. But both of these still fit in to my personal belief of what is right. They did not go down the path I consider wrong.


I tried to stay out of the debate of who is in the right, and who is in the wrong. I have not had my family pushed out of our house, my family members raped and killed. I can sit back and say if this happend to me and my family I would do this and that...but until an event/horror like this does happen, I could just be blowing hot air.


I just hope I can stay to my own set of morals if it does.

[Lazarus]

Originally posted by fable
@Lazarus, given that Chechnya has been overrun by the Russian army and is currently being used in part as a sort of combination slave plantation and whorehouse by the soldiers, without any recourse--what would you suggest the Chechyns do?

I can think of two morally justifiable and appropriate actions for any Chechen to take, though I would imagine that there are others.

If the any given Chechen feels that they need to fight the oppression that has been visited upon them by the Russians, then fight they should. They have waged a guerilla-style war against the Soviets for many years now, and I believe that for the most part this war has been moral and just. And that means: I believe that for the most part this war has been waged against the soldiers of the occupying Russian forces, by whatever means are available to the rebels. This does NOT include the acts of terrorism which they have acted out against Russian civilians. (As a note, I would draw sharp distinction between the intentional killing of civilians and the unintentional but unavoidable civilian deaths which occur in any war – the former is immoral, the later unfortunate.)

From what I have heard (and I don’t make it a point to study this theater, I must admit), the rebels have even been moderately successful in inflicting casualties in the enemy ranks, and costing the Russians money they can ill-afford. I understand that Chechnya is becoming a conflict that the Russians can ill-afford to lose face in. However, it is my firm conviction that Putin is a barbarian; and, like all barbarians, he is a pragmatist first and foremost. If the Chechen rebels can cost him enough money, and send enough of his soldiers home as corpses, then I would tend to think that he would, eventually, relent.

The other option I would put forth is: leave. IMO, the only reason one could wish to stay in a nation as ravaged and as poor as Chechnya is for the possible future liberation of that nation. If this is an individual’s desire, then they should fight (as I have stated above). If they have no particular attachment to the land that is Chechnya, then they should flee to a place where they can live in some sort of dignity.

I would add that the Chechens are making diplomatic overtures around the world. I think this is wise in and of itself, but they are fooling themselves if they think anyone is going to be attracted to their cause after what they did in that theater.

So, bottom line is: moral action is possible for the Chechens. I am not much of one for Machiavelli, and I do not believe that we must do bad things in this bad, bad world of ours (@Thorin).

[RandomThug]

...

Bad is an opinion.

[fable]

The other option I would put forth is: leave. IMO, the only reason one could wish to stay in a nation as ravaged and as poor as Chechnya is for the possible future liberation of that nation. If this is an individual’s desire, then they should fight (as I have stated above). If they have no particular attachment to the land that is Chechnya, then they should flee to a place where they can live in some sort of dignity.

So let me see if I understand this option correctly. The Chechyns should use their cars--oh, wait a minute. Their cars have almost entirely been confiscated by the invading Russian army. Well, then, they can use buses. No; no, they can't. They haven't had any buses since the invasion.

But they can buy plane tickets, can't they, and leave? Ah, no, that's right. Only airports in the hands of the Russian army. And the economy has been reduced to a basic-necessity barter system, since all money (Russian, of course) and luxury goods are now in the hands of the Russian army.

Ah, but they can walk out of the country. Um, no, cancel that. They can't. No one is allowed outside their homes without an express permit for a specific time and location from the occupying force. And where would they go, if they could go? Dagestan won't accept refugees. Georgia wants nothing to do with the conflict. That leaves...Russia.

Meanwhile, the Russian government is trying to forcibly herd back any Chechyns there back into Chechnya. This is even true of Chechyns who settled in Russia more than a decade ago. Amnesty International has been complaining about that.

So much for that option.

I would add that the Chechens are making diplomatic overtures around the world. I think this is wise in and of itself, but they are fooling themselves if they think anyone is going to be attracted to their cause after what they did in that theater.

I think your understanding of this is a bit far of the mark. The Chechyns tried to get diplomatic pressure applied to the Soviet years ago, but Shrub's War on Terrorism has turned Russia into a key pal of the US that can't be coerced. And Putin realized that immediately, after 9/11/01. Within a week he was referring in international speeches to the Chechyn nation as a "nation of terrorists."

Completely forgotten, then, the Chechyns who took over the Moscow theater actually *did* succeed in raising diplomatic attention once more, and Amnesty International used the opportunity to make a tour of Russia calling for justice. So it would appear that the "terrorist/freedom fighters" succeeded in what they really wanted. They all lost their lives, but they got the world to turn its attention once more to the hellhole that Russia has made out of Chechnya.

[Nightmare]

Unfortunitly, we must ask: Will anything be done?

[Koveras]

This will probably turn into the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[Lazarus]

Originally posted by RandomThug
Bad is an opinion.

@RandomThug: I disagree, but that is another discussion entirely.

@fable: You asked me for moral alternatives for the Chechen people. I gave them to you. Is fleeing Chechnya easy? No. Is fighting the Russian army easy? No. But both are moral choices, and neither one is outside the realm of possibility.

What would you suggest as an alternative?

[fable]

Originally posted by Lazarus
@fable: You asked me for moral alternatives for the Chechen people. I gave them to you.

I didn't ask for "moral alternatives." I asked for the kind of thing that would change their condition for the better, so that they don't go the way of Tibet, its population politely agreeing to move into forced labor camps elsewhere in China while the former free nation is repopulated with Chinese.

What you essentially suggested was either impossible (they leave the country), or that they agree to roll over and die in the hills (which is untenable). Neither is "moral," IMO, since it isn't moral to tell people to give up their culture and die away.

What would you suggest as an alternative?

Hate to say it, but circumstances dictate response. The US Revolution, for example, was an ugly conflict, in which the desparate colonies used endless snipers to cut down invading forces, and massacred anyone suspected of being Royalist. What should the Chechyns do? Fight back as dirty and hard and viciously as they can, at home and especially aborad in Russia, forcing the world to take notice, and costing the Russian leaders too much political clout to continue with occupation--which would probably lead to a UN-brokered withdrawal, eventually. When you're being treated as dogs, you bite as hard as you can, until you're treated like humans and can once again rise up and live.

[Littiz]

@Fable, I don't think their *SO* incapacitated to move, if they could
freely go to Moscow and take the Theater like that, 50 persons.
(though I'm sure Al-Queida is behind this)

As for the attention they ask for, I had already replied, in truth.
But elaborating more, why didn't they come, say, here in Florence to blow
some monuments?
I'd keep mourning for my monuments the rest of my life (more than you'd
believe), but I could accept desperation as a motive, in this case.
And maybe the clamor could be even higher.
But *NO ONE* can ask for my attention, or help, through the killing of
innocents.
This for me is set in stone.

[Osiris]

Originally posted by fable
What should the Chechyns do? Fight back as dirty and hard and viciously as they can, at home and especially aborad in Russia, forcing the world to take notice, and costing the Russian leaders too much political clout to continue with occupation--which would probably lead to a UN-brokered withdrawal, eventually. When you're being treated as dogs, you bite as hard as you can, until you're treated like humans and can once again rise up and live.

Fighting hard and dirty at home may help to drive out occupying forces, but I feel that launching attacks within Russia will do more harm than good. Previous Chechyn terrorist attacks within Russia resulted in increased public support for action against Chechnya, such that it was even suggested that the Russians had "staged" some of the apartment block bombings. As well as that, such attacks are generally regarded with revulsion and repugnance by neutral observers, and are hardly likely to gain support from outside countries, except those that are already enemies of Russia.

[fable]

Originally posted by Littiz
@Fable, I don't think their *SO* incapacitated to move, if they could freely go to Moscow and take the Theater like that, 50 persons. (though I'm sure Al-Queida is behind this)

On the macro scale, 50 people secretly crossing into Russia is next to nothing. The trick would be enabling millions to make it through their nation despite the massive presence of the Russian army and cross the border, particularly since Russia now has in place a policy of "repatriating" Chechnyans back into their homeland regardless of their length of stay outside the country. But 50 determined, young, fighters, not caring about the future because they're willing to sacrifice themselves? Sure. They can make it, and I suspect others will, as well.

Fighting hard and dirty at home may help to drive out occupying forces, but I feel that launching attacks within Russia will do more harm than good.

It's not done a thing to drive out the Russian army in Chechnya, nor is it likely to do so. Compared to the US army, the Russia army's equipment is old and badly in need of repair, but it would be laughable to even consider comparisons with the Chechyn resistance. The Russians have total control of Chechnya aside from some of the cavernous, deadly mountains in the south. Latest word, according to Amnesty International, is that the army has begun another series of arbitrary "Police roundup" reprisals, going from door-to-door and gathering hundreds of people in the cities for "questioning." Past history, heavily documented, shows that these people never return.

I honestly don't see how what the Chechyns did in Moscow can do, as you state, more harm than good in the long run. The army already has complete freedom of action, and has reduced the nation to the status of a border fiefdom/playground. Some leaders like Bush who sees everything in the world in terms of one or two issues he promotes and all people as friends or foes will likely back the Russians, but he's done that as a matter of policy since 9/11; so this attack changes nothing.

The IRA terrorists succeeded in finally acquiring legitimacy as a party and a good many of their goals for nationhood. The Basque terrorists of ETA are universally abhored, on the other hand. The difference would seem to be that the IRA was willing to negotiate, whereas ETA has publically stated that it wants what it wants, and will accept nothing else. IMO, the problem for the Chechyns in the longterm as I see it is whether they will become so grim and filled with hatred because of Russian actions that a campaign of violence will cease to become a means and turn instead into an end in itself; or whether their quite reasonable president-in-hiding will be able to sit down and negotiate with the genuine murderers and terrorists, who are on the other side. Just my POV.

[Tom]

I must agree with fable that there are precious few options open to the Chechyns.

I have often posted on the plight of the Palestinians and consider that many (not all) of their actions can be justified because they are occupied and repressed by a foreign power.

I think that the Northern Ireland case shows that the way forward is negotiation. But of course it takes two to negotiate and until that happens the violence will continue. At the moment the Russian government will not negotiate – in many ways it seems that the Russian government is in the same position that the British was 35 years ago. Lets hope that they can find a way to negotiate quicker than the British and the IRA did.