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Style and Children

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gnomethingy
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Post by gnomethingy »

Originally posted by fable

But the best, the first, and the easiest control for the pervasive influence of television is already in the hands of parents, everywhere. It is called the on/off switch.

Good point, unfortunatly.. Can you turn off the billboards and adds that adorn all the public places your kids might go?
The trailers in the cinema, the content of the movies themselves.. Or the msg a band or artist sends out? Can you turn off the comments of there friends, whos parents arnt so vigillante? The content of games in arcades, or the Banners on internet sights? Does you sphere of influence stretch to include the the ads, on the sides off buses, taxi's, trains or on the platform wall?

I highly doubt it...

Soceity is like a third parent that encourages Kids to be bad, Its clever adds carry as much sway as perental authority, its subtle suggestion as good as any phycology you may employ

Soceity is not a foreign country, glanced only through Television..

You live WITHIN it, how can you turn it off?

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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by gnomethingy
Can you turn off the billboards and adds that adorn all the public places your kids might go?
The trailers in the cinema, the content of the movies themselves.. Or the msg a band or artist sends out? Can you turn off the comments of there friends, whos parents arnt so vigillante? The content of games in arcades, or the Banners on internet sights? Does you sphere of influence stretch to include the the ads, on the sides off buses, taxi's, trains or on the platform wall?
You are correct that you cannot resonably stop society from influencing your children. However, as a parent, you can ensure that you exert more influence of your children than anyone else. If you raise your kids right, they will be able to discern which messages are positive and which ones are negative or manipulative.
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Post by Ode to a Grasshopper »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
*Not that there isn't any such thing as ADD; there is, but it is my opinion that ADD is something that is overdiagnosed and overmedicated.
There is indeed, I have it and in my case it simply shortens my concentration span. I am in fact one of the more quiet, courteous people around my age that I know (in no small part due to my parents and how I was raised), yet I have this disorder that is widely associated with problem children.

To be honest, though, without the medication (dexamphetamine sulph) I used to take I wouldn't have got through high school, the intensity of the last 2 years would have been too much for me to cope with without a normal attention span, despite being unusually bright (as I suspect are most of us here at SYM) and having a good maths and english ability.
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Post by gnomethingy »

Hmmm, I still reserve a mesure of cynisism as to just how much influence parents can have on there childrens behavior, for reasons I have mentioned and many I havent nor am I going to becouse my morose phiosophy is both depressive and boring...

Its only a matter of time however, until you start seeing adds like this...

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Post by HighLordDave »

@Ode to a Grasshopper:
I don't mean to hijack this thread to be about ADD, but it is my experience in the US that ADD is something that is overdiagnosed. Is that the case in Australia?

When I was in school, there was no such thing as ADD (although I certainly knew kids who showed its symptoms). Now, if you go to a lot of pre-schools and kindergardens, it seems that 40%+ of the kids are on Ritalin, a number that seems to be unreasonably high.

I believe the reasons for the widespread diagnosis and medication for ADD are twofold: First, there is the thing about denying personal responsibility (see my post above). Second, if you have a child diagnosed with ADD, in the US that child is entitled to a government stipend to help cover their "disability".

I believe this overdiagnosis detracts from kids who truly suffer from ADD. What is your experience?

. . . This subject may belong in a separate thread, but I'm interested in what you have to say about this.
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by gnomethingy
Hmmm, I still reserve a mesure of cynisism as to just how much influence parents can have on there childrens behavior,
I think you underestimate the power of parents (both positive and negative). Kids pay more attention to what their parents say, and more importantly what their parents do than either the child or the parent is aware of.

For instance, children who are abused are likely to become abusors themselves. Similarly, kids who grow up in non-smoking households are less likely to smoke themselves, despite societal pressures to light up. A study was just released in the US which said that girls who are close to their mothers are more likely to wait longer before engaging in sexual activity. I think if you look at a lot of people, you'll see that many of them exhibit temperments and behaviours similar to their parents; this is not coincidence, it is parental influence manifesting itself in the most subtle of ways.

Are children carbon-copies of their parents? Of course not. However, I think that if parents are willing to exert the effort to positively influence their children on a 24/7 basis (because you can't say one thing and do another; kids are great at picking out hypocrites), they are capable of drowning out society's more harmful and materialistic messages. This means being plugged into what their kids are doing, watching, reading, listen to and wearing, and I believe that many parents are afraid to "invade" their children's "privacy" when they are really being responsible for their kid's lifestyle, or they are too busy hiding behind their work or their own hobbies to take a real interest in their kid's lives.
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Post by smass »

@HLD - your points about parents taking responsibility are spot on. Unfortunately, in the US, our society is going in the other direction entirely. If you spill hot coffee on your lap - sue the restaurant, if you trip and fall walking down the street - sue the municipality, if your son doesn't make the football team - sue the coach.

It seems that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions. This attitude seems to have its roots in the "me" generation of the 60s and 70s. It is a very disturbing trend that has been building for the past 30 years or so. In a civilized society we must have rules and standards. In a civilized household parents must have rules and regulations for their children. In many households the "inmates run the prison" - parents who themselves do not take personal responsibility for their actions are not going to teach their children these values.

Which brings me to another point you raised about ADD. I have no doubt that the disease exists and needs to be treated. But I do believe that the root of the problem for many ADD children can be found at home. A little more attention from their parents (plural is probably wishful thinking) - along with some more discipline and personal responsibility - would go a long way towards helping these kids.
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Post by Gwalchmai »

I, also, agree with smass and HLD. I really hope that loving parents can have some degree of influence over their kids. If not, I'm in deep doo-doo. My girls (1 and 4) are very willful, and will likely have very strong opinions as they get older.... :eek:
That there; exactly the kinda diversion we coulda used.
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Post by smass »

Strong opinions are a great thing. Makes parenting a little challenging - but strong willed kids who have high self esteem, good values, and some humility - make happy, well rounded adults. :)
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by Gwalchmai
I, also, agree with smass and HLD. I really hope that loving parents can have some degree of influence over their kids.
I have no doubt that you are a great dad, Gwalchmai.

I'm going to do some horrible generalising throughout the rest of this post, so don't hang me out to dry for not making exceptions for what I'm about to say.

It is my observation that many people who are parents today grew up without discipline themselves. People of the baby boomer generation were, in my opinion, spoiled by parents who had lived through the Depression and fought the bloodiest war in the history of the world. As a result, generally speaking, their parents provided everything they had done without and one of the first things to go was discipline.

I don't know about you, but my parents didn't use corporal punishment much (and I'm using corporal punshiment to mean actual punishment that is fairly meted out for disciplinary infractions, not abusive beatings). I think that is because they remembered how they had been raised in that environment, read a lot of psychology which said that spanking is bad; "spare the rod and spoil the child" stuff. Fortunately for me, I was basically a good kid, but my brother was in sore need of boundaries which were not provided and he spent many years drinking and using drugs because my parents didn't exert any controls over him.

It is my belief that kids who grow up in this environment-without boundaries, without rules, without discipline and without personal accountability-are sold short because all three of those things are necessary in our lives, personally, professionally, spiritually, etc. I think today we are seeing the children of those baby boomers having families of the own and not knowing how to instill discipline in their kids because they never had it themselves.

I believe it to be this phenomena--parents who never new boundaries trying to establish them for their own children--that has lead us to the denial of personal responsibility we see in society. We have been taught that everything is someone else's fault and that is the lesson we are sending to our kids.

Our friend smass makes some good points about strong-willed children. Yes, they must be allowed to challenge their parents and become their own people. The point of raising children is so that one day they will be independent of their parents (this is true of all animals, not just humans) and pick out good nursing homes for their kids. However, even strong-willed children need boundaries (and they will test you, believe me!) and parents should not feel obligated to give in just because their kid won't take "no" for an answer.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by gnomethingy
Good point, unfortunatly.. Can you turn off the billboards and adds that adorn all the public places your kids might go?
The trailers in the cinema, the content of the movies themselves.. Or the msg a band or artist sends out? Can you turn off the comments of there friends, whos parents arnt so vigillante? The content of games in arcades, or the Banners on internet sights? Does you sphere of influence stretch to include the the ads, on the sides off buses, taxi's, trains or on the platform wall?

I highly doubt it...
My emphasis on the personal responsibility of parents to control access and content on television and the computer in no way is intended to deny the deep-seated problems that lie within a culture that defines all objects and ideas in terms of material wealth. Unfortunately, unless an authoritarian government has the power to do something about it, or a democratic society comes to a consensus regarding this, commercialism will merely expand and attempt to fill every hole in our lives that we allow it. There, too, I think proper parenting provides, if nothing else, at least a stopgap control, because parents can educate their children to understand the emotional hooks in all advertising, and to ignore the value system it implies.
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Post by Phantom Lord »

Originally posted by fable
.... There, too, I think proper parenting provides, if nothing else, at least a stopgap control, because parents can educate their children to understand the emotional hooks in all advertising, and to ignore the value system it implies.
I agree 100%.

I don't have children - yet. I certainly want to have children and I've been thinking a lot about how to deal with the situation that many people will try to sell things to my children "behind my back". My opinion is that children have not only to be protected from a media overdose, because this alone won't help. Their friends dress in a certain way, my children may think that they're not a part of the society they want to be a part of if they wear the wrong clothes. Whatever magazines they read and whatever TV programs they watch they will be confronted with adds that target their emotions in a very professional way. So I have to take much time, all the experience I have and of course the love for my children to deal with their emotions. And I'll have to convince them that there's a difference between surface and content.

Thinking about my own youth this will be pretty difficult ... altough my parents did quite a good job. They were always willing to discuss things me and took their time to do so.
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Post by fable »

It is my belief that kids who grow up in this environment-without boundaries, without rules, without discipline and without personal accountability-are sold short because all three of those things are necessary in our lives, personally, professionally, spiritually, etc. I think today we are seeing the children of those baby boomers having families of the own and not knowing how to instill discipline in their kids because they never had it themselves.

I was brought up in the 1950s, in an abusive household, yet my parents were still neglectful of my sister and myself. Just because my mother slapped me around every day doesn't mean she understood the need for time and communication within a family. Discipline in and of itself is nothing more than a series of rules (and I don't think you're suggesting otherwise). By my way of thinking, discipline must follow upon a close, loving relationship built on trust, openness and honesty--with one's self, and with each other.

Gods, I'm beginning to sound so preachy. Maybe I'll just call myself the Right Reverend Fable, or Sri Fable. :rolleyes: But I really mean what I write, above. In my relationship with my wife and the interrelationships of my sister's family, I see very conscious and distinct attempts to correct my parents' method of either ignoring problems of punching them away.

Our culture itself has, to my way of thinking, a much more longterm problem of avoiding responsibility, one that goes back further than the midpoint of the last century. IMO, it began with an almost psychosomatic extension of the self-motivating impulse in the frontier mentality: I will succeed on my own, because I am strong, and I can take pride in all I build as a result. Of course, self-reliance is a good value; but it makes a poor god. It encourages entrepeneurship, but taken alone can also lead to a belief that everybody should simply fend for themselves. "Are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses? Are they still in operation?" asks that most self-reliant of alpha achievers, Ebenezar Scrooge, in the Christmas Carol. Scrooge is an extreme example of a certain type, but Dic!ens, ever a shrewd observer of humanity, clearly saw the lack of social responsibility inherent in a culture that placed private material gains on the altar of worship.

I think it is this passionate belief in self-achievement that makes Americans so suspicious of things like social medicine and social security, regularly termed "free hand-outs." It also makes them ignore the importance of anything outside work and a few pet interests, and that includes the rest of their close family. A child may be a status symbol that is bragged about in the office when they win an award, but usually they're just allowed to go their own way, learning whatever they can, wherever they can.

And the merchandisers who own television are certainly more than willing to play the role of educator, and tell any child exactly what they need to dream, to fit in, and to accomplish at every step throughout their lives.
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by fable
I was brought up in the 1950s, in an abusive household, yet my parents were still neglectful of my sister and myself. Just because my mother slapped me around every day doesn't mean she understood the need for time and communication within a family. Discipline in and of itself is nothing more than a series of rules (and I don't think you're suggesting otherwise). By my way of thinking, discipline must follow upon a close, loving relationship built on trust, openness and honesty--with one's self, and with each other.
This is exactly correct. The foundation of discipline is not punishment, and not all discipline involves a physical component. If a child breaks a neighbour's window playing baseball, it is just as possible to get through to that child by making him go apologise and pay for the window out of his own money as it is by spanking him.

The point of disciplining someone, whether it is your kids, students or subordinates at work, is to make them learn from their mistakes (and not repeat them). My taekwondo instructors used to use push-ups as a punishment for being late to class. Very few people were late. My parents favoured grounding as a punishment, although at some point it lost its effectiveness, and they had to find other ways to get through to us (like taking away the phone or TV privileges). My old band teacher in middle school used to make people stand up for the remainder of the period; I never once heard Mr. Miller raise his voice but by making someone stand (coulpled with the embarrassment of being singled out), he usually ensured that the session wasn't interrupted again.

There is no right or wrong way to instill discipline in someone; everyone reacts differently and you need to use different methods with different children. For instance, if you told me that I couldn't watch TV as punishment, I would be just fine with that because I love to read and don't need a TV for entertainment. However, a banning from the TV was a killer for my brother.

Similarly, there are other ways to abuse someone besides physically striking them. There is beating someone down verbally, repeated public humiliation and other forms of psychological abuse.

A guy I used to work with had a mother who used the belt on him. He told me that when she would whip him, she'd be crying more than he was because in her mind, every time he screwed up bad enough to merit a whipping, it meant that she had somehow failed or had been an inadequate parent. There is a wonderful passage in Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie) where Sergeant Zim and the company commander are talking about meting out a punishment and Zim is saying that in the soldier screwing up, he had failed the soldier and the Mobile Infantry, and that gets right to the root of what establishing rules and consequences means.

We've talked before about the merits and abuses of corporal punishment on this forum before, but my main point is that kids need boundaries, rules and well-defined consequences for disobedience. If done under the proper framework, the point of the rules is not to arbitrarily restrict and punish someone, but to teach them about what is and what is not acceptable, in the family, in a social group and in society in general.

To draw this back to the original point of the thread, it is my belief that when 12 year old girls are running around with tight shirts that essentially say, "Look at my boobs" on the front, it is the parents who have failed to properly supervise their children and that no one else is to blame for this behaviour.
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Post by RandomThug »

Normally

As of late my posts have been of rebuttles or spam, but this one is of definte praise. Your an educated one Fable, yes you are. It was a pleasure to read your last post.

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Post by Maharlika »

For adults with no kids of their own...

...fable and HLD's comments are a must read for parents out there. :cool:

Indeed, the gist of their points is that there is a need for PROCESSING between parent and child. The idea is to make the kids be prepared and responsible even when their parents are not around to protect them and cater to their needs.

I feel so lucky as I reflect on how my parents raised me...

...so much so that I don't bear any ill-feelings towards them whenever I recall all the things I've been through when I had to be disciplined. :)

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Post by Vinin »

I realize that this thread is mostly for parents and the such but here's an opinion of a 15 yearold sophmore in high school...

Personally at 15, even tank tops and halter skirts are disgusting adn revolted at my age. My best friend and I will often talk about these things and we've decided that we are dfinetly not interested in them. If a girl can appeal sexually while not showing skin, its so much more attractive. A mini-skirt every now adn then is fine, but everyday? So as a kid in the middle of the age range but of the opposite sex, I see no reason for this sort of thing.

As for parenting, I grew up with two parents, who both worked, but took time out of their days to play with us or scold us when neccesary. I realize I am very lucky, but I'm not your average American kid. My parents are directly from Vietnam, during the war. They are still very much from that part of the world. Myself, I consider myself an american but also vietnamese/chinese. I am both because that is how I grew up. I grew up with morals, and a mother or father who punished me everytime I did something bad, because that's the way it's supposed to be. They read those don't hit ur child books, and didn't believe a word in them. I have american adn chinese ideals in me. I LISTEN to my parents, how amazing is that? I'm very out of the crowd in that i don't hate my parents. So yeah, I think every parent needs a little eastern morals in them or to teach every now and then. Try to think of how a traditional chinese parent teaches her children. You can't think of a traditional american parent anymore, because they are nearly nonexsitent.
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Post by Ode to a Grasshopper »

@HLD and anyone else who's interested-I've made thread for dealing with the issue of ADD here, so as not to spam up the thread. :)
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