Conversion by zeal (no spam)

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:06 pm

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
@Sleepo-I too was interested, it seems to me that having examples of the topic at hand can enrich the conversation, and certainly do it no harm.
Also, I believe that faith can be a cop-out for non-explanation, but is not necessarily always used as such either.

Here is a little more:

Apparently there is more evidence of Jesus' existence than Julius Ceaser. This is an oft quoted line, one i have heard on many differing occasions, he didn't use this particular "fact" but used a similarly ridiculous effort at proof.

(abridged)
Minister says, "Jesus existed, there is evidence in history books that say so"
"I am not the type of person that blindly assumes that all of history is true (this is another issue

)"
"So you believe that the war happened in 1946?"
"Well...yes"
"So if you believe that history to be true then it's the same with Jesus, he actually existed"

I think pretty much anyone can see a flaw in this logic. I know several people who were alive during WW2 and have experiences that one just can't fake, i can talk to them and i accept that it is the case. Plus there is a great deal of other literature which point towards its truth.

However accepting that he War happened does not then mean that Jesus existed, they are not the same thing, their timeframes are completely different.

Yet he followed this line with zeal, Jesus existed, so surely everything else regarding him is true and thus it proves the existence of the trinity, heaven and hell. You can see my problems with this line of thinking?

Another one:

"Just accept him" was something he followed, i say "accept what", he says "Jesus", i say "it is an entirely abstract concept to me"....yadda yadda yadda. He could not understand why i did not see the logic in Jesus, he maintained that if i just accept something that i can't logically believe in then i would be saved...but that can't work, i could say i accept that my printer is in fact God, there is no reason for my assertations truth but if i believed it enough then i could make it true for myself.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 2:56 pm

@Sleep, there's a wonderful little story by Anatole France, the great turn-of-the-century French novelist and Nobel lauriat. I'm afraid I've forgotten it's name,

but it's something you might have liked. It postulates a conversation set about 40 AC between Pontius Pilate and the Roman representative/tax official sent down to see him--an old friend, in fact. They sit down to dinner, and trade stories, discussing the problems in Gaul, the latest Greek fashions, the Bacchic cult, etc. (France was a great one for research to provide genuine color in his fiction.) They agree that the times are fraught with violence, and that the greatest of Rome's statesmen and honor lies in its past. At the conclusion, after talking about rebellions, the official asks, "Did you ever hear anything from those rebellious followers of that Jewish prophet from a few years back? You know, that Jeshua ben Jacob." And Pontius thinks for a second, then replies, "Who? Oh, no. Really, smallest of my worries."

I think France was struck by the poor modern attempts in sensationalist fiction (The Robe, Ben Hur, etc) to make Jesus' immediate impact seem enormous at the time of his life, because the writers (and public) would fondly believe this to be the case since Christianity has become such a potent, driving force more recently. But there's very little mention made of Jesus or his followers, other than as a sort of regional nuisance mentioned in some contemporary histories. Chirstians only became a more prominent feature in that era into their second century in Rome, when they had a habit of burning the temples of other religions.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:07 pm

Originally posted by fable
... Chirstians only became a more prominent feature in that era into their second century in Rome, when they had a habit of burning the temples of other religions.

... and being martyred by the thousands for refusing recant their faith.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:26 pm

Originally posted by fable
At the conclusion, after talking about rebellions, the official asks, "Did you ever hear anything from those rebellious followers of that Jewish prophet from a few years back? You know, that Jeshua ben Jacob." And Pontius thinks for a second, then replies, "Who? Oh, no. Really, smallest of my worries."

It does sound like my kind of thing, i will raid the second hand book store and have a look

I was just looking up some of his work on Amazon, he wrote a book about a near sighted Abbot who belsses penguins and they end up forming a colony called Penguinia...sounds like amusing reading, i will have to keep an eye out for some of his work

I have been told that i am a mocker BTW, just for pointing out the facts that don't work for me and why. I have also been compared to a doubting Thomas, which i suppose isn't such a bad comparison

I think France was struck by the poor modern attempts in sensationalist fiction (The Robe, Ben Hur, etc) to make Jesus' immediate impact seem enormous at the time of his life, because the writers (and public) would fondly believe this to be the case since Christianity has become such a potent, driving force more recently. But there's very little mention made of Jesus or his followers, other than as a sort of regional nuisance mentioned in some contemporary histories.

Interestingly enough, an aquaintence of mine sees Jesus life as a very defining part of history, he never pointed me to any proof behind his statements but held to a line about how important Jesus was in history and how it is all provable, not that of course it was proved to me

Chirstians only became a more prominent feature in that era into their second century in Rome, when they had a habit of burning the temples of other religions.

And going on noble crusades to wipe out what were alledgedly heathens

@Eminem (or anyone else) can you provide me with any relevant links to proof of Jesus' existence? It is a subject which interest me greatly

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 6:21 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep

And going on noble crusades to wipe out what were alledgedly heathens

@Eminem (or anyone else) can you provide me with any relevant links to proof of Jesus' existence? It is a subject which interest me greatly

Yeah, sure, here you go;

Catholic Encycopedia

It lists the literary Pagan, Jewish, and Christian sources of Christ's historicity.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 8:08 pm

It does sound like my kind of thing, i will raid the second hand book store and have a look I was just looking up some of his work on Amazon, he wrote a book about a near sighted Abbot who belsses penguins and they end up forming a colony called Penguinia...sounds like amusing reading, i will have to keep an eye out for some of his work

Oh, Penguin Island! That's a wonderful satire. It has two other great features, IMO. First, there's the lampoon of the Dreyfus Affair--a turn-of-the-century French military spy disaster in which higher ups concealed their bungling at giving master plans to a German agent by claiming the actual spy was a French Jewish officer named Dreyfus. He went to Devil's Island, and the government labeled anybody who argued with the military as unpatriotic. When finally brought to trial, the government claimed it had evidence, but that it was too secret and important to reveal. Dreyfus was again jailed. Finally, after the matter came out, and several highly placed civil servants and officers committed suicide, Dreyfus was reinstated. But the French military didn't admit he was innocent until 1995...!

It helps to know a bit about it; here's a detailed chronology which gives a real feeling for the extremely important place it held in French minds at the time. It was OJ Simpson, Watergate, and Clinton/Lewinsky all rolled into one. France did a real number on it, and almost got arrested.

The second feature I really like is France's sustained vision that Christianity represented the ascetic impulse, a real rejection of the earth and all it entails, while pagan gods, transmogrified by Christians into devils, represented the opposite impulse, an embrace of the earth. Some of his Christians are mundane types who use the religion to cover their sins, but the best of the lot in his writings are tragic, zealous figures who have extraordinary ideals and vision. Against that stand the pagan gods, who occasionally show up in latter times, trying to show those Christians most intent on reforming the world that it can't be done, and that either the vision they have is worth pursuing by itself, or that they should learn a different kind of wisdom in the bosom of nature and mankind.

I realize this sounds academic as all get-out,

but that's my fault. He's definitely worth checking out, and I recommend the short stories first to get a flavor of France's style and content.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 6:43 pm

Originally posted by fable
It does sound like my kind of thing, i will raid the second hand book store and have a look I was just looking up some of his work on Amazon, he wrote a book about a near sighted Abbot who belsses penguins and they end up forming a colony called Penguinia...sounds like amusing reading, i will have to keep an eye out for some of his work

Oh, Penguin Island! That's a wonderful satire. It has two other great features, IMO. First, there's the lampoon of the Dreyfus Affair--a turn-of-the-century French military spy disaster in which higher ups concealed their bungling at giving master plans to a German agent by claiming the actual spy was a French Jewish officer named Dreyfus. He went to Devil's Island, and the government labeled anybody who argued with the military as unpatriotic. When finally brought to trial, the government claimed it had evidence, but that it was too secret and important to reveal. Dreyfus was again jailed. Finally, after the matter came out, and several highly placed civil servants and officers committed suicide, Dreyfus was reinstated. But the French military didn't admit he was innocent until 1995...!

It helps to know a bit about it; here's a detailed chronology which gives a real feeling for the extremely important place it held in French minds at the time. It was OJ Simpson, Watergate, and Clinton/Lewinsky all rolled into one. France did a real number on it, and almost got arrested.

The second feature I really like is France's sustained vision that Christianity represented the ascetic impulse, a real rejection of the earth and all it entails, while pagan gods, transmogrified by Christians into devils, represented the opposite impulse, an embrace of the earth. Some of his Christians are mundane types who use the religion to cover their sins, but the best of the lot in his writings are tragic, zealous figures who have extraordinary ideals and vision. Against that stand the pagan gods, who occasionally show up in latter times, trying to show those Christians most intent on reforming the world that it can't be done, and that either the vision they have is worth pursuing by itself, or that they should learn a different kind of wisdom in the bosom of nature and mankind.

I realize this sounds academic as all get-out, but that's my fault. He's definitely worth checking out, and I recommend the short stories first to get a flavor of France's style and content.

Thank you fable, for the history also.

I did raid one of the local bookstores, they didn't have it, i will endeavour to look further a field

From the sounds of it France was quite the revolutionary, i am quite surprised that he didn't get lynched and thrown in jail, i like the sounds of his work already, it will be my quest to find some

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:59 am

I've gone back to this thread in order to see if I can contribute in some way. However, there's a lot of different questions... Could someone of you clearify the specific question(s) or situation on which you want a legal opinion?

And of course, as I'm not familiar with American law, I'll have to keep the discussion on a rather basic level.

fable · Post by **fable** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:53 am

@Astafas, the original question, as I wrote it at the start:

"How do you feel about attempts at religious conversion? Note, not just to some form of Protestantism--what about your converting others to your point of view, even if you're an atheist? Is it right, or wrong, and why? If it is right, how should it be done? If it is wrong, how would you stop it?"

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:01 pm

Originally posted by fable
@Astafas, the original question, as I wrote it at the start:

"How do you feel about attempts at religious conversion? Note, not just to some form of Protestantism--what about your converting others to your point of view, even if you're an atheist? Is it right, or wrong, and why? If it is right, how should it be done? If it is wrong, how would you stop it?"

Legally it is neither right nor wrong to, by normal means (physical and psychological force thus excluded) convert, or try to convert, someone to your point of view. It doesn't matter if this point of view is a religious one or not.

Freedom of speech is a so called basic human right found in most modern legal systems. It is often constructed as "you may say anything that is not explicitly forbidden by law". Restriced topics (the "forbidden by law") can be for example slander/defamation, rasist propaganda or state secrets. The western world tend to value freedom of speech high (often making it part of the national constitution whereas the restricted topics nomally are specified in a penal code or equivalent to which the constitution makes a reference) and are therefor hesistant to restrict it.

Seperate from the question of what you may or may not say with reference to your freedom of speech, there is the question of what you may or may not do in order to exercise named right. Also here, ordinary penal rules apply. Thus, you cannot break into someone's house and later successfully defend this action by the fact that you put forward various political opinions to the owner of the house as soon as you got inside. Along the same line of reasoning, a person who stops a car by walking out right in front of it and then tries to convert the driver to any given religion would probably break at least one traffic regulation...