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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by fable
@CE, how does one escape from the trap of using manipulative methods to convert on a subject impervious to logic?
I think this can be done by using educative and supportive influence methods such as you see in good education methods and good psychotherapy methods.

There any many ways to avoid manipulation, the most important are:

1. Don't have a "hidden agenda", make it clear what you think and why and openly discuss your goals with the other person.
2. Present facts, and present the full picture without making systematic selections. When it is about ideology or religion, present the whole packet of ideas and consequences, not only the attractive parts.
3. Never hide or lie about what the critics of the idea/theory/belief system thinks.
4. Always reply to all questions, not avoiding anything.
5. Try to focus on what the belief system/idea will mean to the person, what differences it may lead to.
6. Don't use dirty rhetorics like the logical fallacies we have often discussed here on SYM. Strawman arguments, ie claiming that critics and opponents say something else than they say, and emotional arguments like ad hominems and appealing to popularity etc, are very frequent in many US christian fundamentalist groups way of arguing (at least what I've seen on the web). It is also typically a part of mind-control methods, and it's more efficient than many people realise.
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
At their best, evangelical Christians are so moved by the Holy Spirit that they must share the joy and salvation they have found in Christ with everyone who will listen.

At their worst, evangelical Christians (I use Christians here as an example, but fill in the blank with any religious group) are self-righteous bigots who want to impose their beliefs upon everyone else, despite their wishes.
At what point does it cross the line from "will listen" to "impose".

Take the people who stand at the "Crossings" (Redlight stops). They stand and scream at the drivers that to not be saved is just sending your soul to hell.

Would this be "will listen" or "impose"? I would call it "impose". I have to stop for the light and they take advantage of this.
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by Weasel
I have to stop for the light and they take advantage of this.
But you don't have to listen to him if all he's doing is running his mouth. You can talk on your cell phone, turn up the radio, honk your car horn to drown out their sermon and do any number of things so as to not listen.

When I was a freshman at UNF, I worked for the University Police Department (parking enforcement, the most popular job on campus). One day, there was a guy who set up shop on the university quad and starting a fire and brimstone fundamental Christian sermon against all sorts of things: drugs, fornication, homosexuals, short skirts, affirmative action, interracial marriage, drinking, women in the workplace, etc.; I think in less than an hour he managed to offend anyone and everyone within the sound of his voice.

Not only was he preaching, but he'd engage anyone who would talk to him, often shouting down people who took him on. He ignored those who ignored him and continued on their way. A number of students asked the campus police to remove him but he was entitled to make his voice heard provided that he was not inciting a riot or disrupting classes (he was doing neither). You see, he wasn't forcing anyone to listen to him and he wasn't breaking any laws; in fact, he was exercising his constitutional rights.

I compare super-zealous evangelical Christians to people like Howard Stern and Larry Flynt. If you don't like what they have to say, don't listen to them. As long as someone is doing their preaching in a public space and I am entitled to equal time for my views in that same space, as far as I am concerned, evangelists of all religions can say whatever the hell they want because I can always tune them out. However, if they come on to my property and don't leave when I ask them to, I'll be the first guy to call the police because I wouldn't do the same thing to them.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Weasel
Take the people who stand at the "Crossings" (Redlight stops). They stand and scream at the drivers that to not be saved is just sending your soul to hell.

Would this be "will listen" or "impose"? I would call it "impose". I have to stop for the light and they take advantage of this.
I would agree with @Weasel, here. In effect, he's a captive audience; he can't walk away. And even if he could, I question whether *all* public property is an appropriate location for any loud, harranguing rant. Many big cities deliberately create areas with soapboxes for this purpose--because people want to enjoy their walks without being disturbed. If a public park is open to everybody, then isn't the shouting preacher, screaming in your ear about damnation, actually invading your privacy by preventing you from enjoying the park, itself?
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by fable
If a public park is open to everybody, then isn't the shouting preacher, screaming in your ear about damnation, actually invading your privacy by preventing you from enjoying the park, itself?
Doesn't the preacher have the same right as you to enjoy the public space in whatever manner he sees fit? I don't find yelling at sinners enjoyable, but that may be how he gets closer to God, just as I like watching football on Sundays but other people can't stand the sport.

If someone preaching about spending eternity in Hell isn't your speed, perhaps you should start up a kazoo band right next to him and make his time in the park miserable or engage in some of the (legal) behaviours which he or she is talking about in their full view.

While sometimes distasteful, I believe that everyone has the right to lawfully express themselves in a public space provided that they are not disrupting the normal activity of the place, they are not putting people in danger and that everyone else gets an equal opportunity to use that same space to promote their own agenda.
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
But you don't have to listen to him if all he's doing is running his mouth. You can talk on your cell phone, turn up the radio, honk your car horn to drown out their sermon and do any number of things so as to not listen.
In my younger days...I admit I would try to drown out these people with all the watts I could blast away.

But I come to realize or call it rethinking....they should have the right to believe what they want. Plus a new found weakness to try not to cause trouble.


But should I have to do these things at a red light? Should I be forced to turn the radio up? If they have the right to scream at me, shouldn't I have the right not to have to listen to them? I have to be forced to take measures not to listen. Is this fair to me? It would be different if they picked a spot beside the road without a red light,(Or as you said a place on campus) I could drive/walk right on by or if I choose to stop and listen. Instead they pick a red light and "force" me to take measures so their opinion or belief is not forced at me.

Is this legal? I would yes. But is it fair?



On the other hand...

My views on conversion might be warped. I was raised a Baptist and I believe some of my views are "based" / "corrupted" because of it. After years of hearing I damned to burn in fire and brimestone...and finally getting to the age to decide on my own not to attend church, I know I have a somewhat negative view against religion. The failing of the religion...or the failing on the man trying to bring his opinion of gods words to me? As with most everything having to do with mankind, I believe it was the failing of the man. He preached what he "believed" the word of god meant. And sadly or not, I'm not the type that can take a "human" as the absolute truth on the matter. Maybe I was born with no faith...or maybe I'm rambling....
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by HighLordDave


Doesn't the preacher have the same right as you to enjoy the public space in whatever manner he sees fit?
Standing in one place and harranguing people means you can escape the sound. But sound waves travel. When that preacher uses an electronic sound system to blast people with his message, isn't he invading the private space of the people he's addressing?

And if he does so with an electronic sound system, what about a megaphone? What about screaming at the top of his lungs in your car window, when you're stuck at a light? Where does the line exist between the permissable and the non-permissable?
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Post by C Elegans »

As a European, I must say I am surprised by the degree of aggressiveness and intrusion Weasel, HLD and Fable are discussing. These kind of things don't happen here, not even in the big cities like London or Paris. Prozelyting(sp?) and preaching in public is very rare here, and the only people I have ever known to harass people at red light stops, are students joking and handing out pamphlets at the special Freshman day, or people who have severe psychiatric problems. That degree of harassment is simply not socially acceptable here, and religious group usually do street recruiting in a calm and polite manner, perhaps handing out leaflets to passers by, or inviting to meeting and discussions.
Originally posted by Weasel
Is this legal? I would yes. But is it fair?
Like in the US, it would be legal in almost all European (if not all) as well, since it would be included in the freedom of speach and freedom of meeting rights. However, legal or not, I do not think it is fair or right - and I don't think it is efficient either. If I was a follower of a religion that demanded me to convert as many people as possible, I would use other, more efficient but still less rude methods to spread my word.
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Post by HighLordDave »

As our friend mental_nomad points out, what's more pervasive or disruptive: a Pentacostal preacher in the park or some punk kid playing his car stereo loud enough to be heard three blocks away or a motorhead with a Glasspack muffler on his Chevelle one lane over?

All of those are annoying; the only difference is that the latter two are simply noise pollution and the first is often intentionally pushing your buttons about your spiritual beliefs.

I think that in many jurisdictions there is a difference between using mechanical assistance to be heard and simply talking or yelling, so a preacher using a megaphone may be arrested while one without may be allowed to speak.

As to what's permissible, if the preacher has the right to tell you that you are damned to eternity in Hell, you have the right to tell him he's an ignorant, racist, Bible-thumping misogynist and that he should get the hell back to the early 16th century where he came from. Your rights are only as good as you make them and they require active exercise; he's practising his freedom of speech, you need to practise yours, even if it's inconvenient or not something you'd choose to do that afternoon.
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by C Elegans
That degree of harassment is simply not socially acceptable here, and religious group usually do street recruiting in a calm and polite manner, perhaps handing out leaflets to passers by, or inviting to meeting and discussions.
Just to be fair, not all religious groups take it to the point of screaming. At least in the cases I'm talking about. Some will only hold signs ..like " Find God (Attend so and so Church)" and will not scream. But I guess, with every other thing, there are some who do (IMHO) go overboard.

The point I was ask, and Fable put in better wording, was where is the line drawn at?
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Weasel
Just to be fair, not all religious groups take it to the point of screaming. At least in the cases I'm talking about. Some will only hold signs ..like " Find God (Attend so and so Church)" and will not scream. But I guess, with every other thing, there are some who do (IMHO) go overboard.

The point I was ask, and Fable put in better wording, was where is the line drawn at?
OK, I see, I thought the screaming etc was something very common.

It is difficult to describe where to draw the line, it is easier to take examples and point out whether those are inside or outside of the limits. Personally, I am not easily disturbed by other people and like HLD says, I use my freedom of speach back when I feel like it (not very often here, has only happend a few times when I was younger and had an even shorter fuse than I have today.) Anyway, I am hardly suitable measurement for a general principle, and I think harassing people with noise in situations where they are captive audience, such as red light stops, public transport, airplanes etc, is clearly over the limit IMO. This goes for all types of messages, political, religious or other.

Also, I think approaching people with scare tactics and accusations the first thing, is over the limit. I remember a group of militant vegans standing at a busy no-cars street a couple of years ago, shouting "murderer", "slaughter" and various invectives at random people walking by - that is clearly over the line too IMO, as is the "you will burn in hell"-messages. Again, not very efficient methods.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
As to what's permissible, if the preacher has the right to tell you that you are damned to eternity in Hell, you have the right to tell him he's an ignorant, racist, Bible-thumping misogynist and that he should get the hell back to the early 16th century where he came from. Your rights are only as good as you make them and they require active exercise; he's practising his freedom of speech, you need to practise yours, even if it's inconvenient or not something you'd choose to do that afternoon.
I'd just as soon not engage him in anything, thanks, nor do I think that kind of thing should be allowed. It *has* been outlawed on the streets of NYC, by the way. Giuliani said that such people had a right to speak at platforms created in major parks, where there was always people in attendence. Once the arrests started, the incidence of these kind of things dropped dramatically. Apparently, the Annoited of any creed, religious or otherwise, do draw the line at preaching in jail.

I can appreciate the need to "save" souls for many religions who attempt this. I have to wonder, though, how many souls have been saved by cursing, intrusive, condemning preachers, as opposed to those who avoid political comment, in-your-face spittle and lead by example. ;)
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Post by HighLordDave »

Originally posted by fable
Giuliani said that such people had a right to speak at platforms created in major parks, where there was always people in attendence. Once the arrests started, the incidence of these kind of things dropped dramatically. Apparently, the Annoited of any creed, religious or otherwise, do draw the line at preaching in jail.
Have those arrests survived challenges in court? A government can do whatever the hell it wants and pass any laws they want until someone sues them. Without seeing the wording of the ordinance which bars streetcorner preaching, I would be surprised if it would survive a serious court challenge. Still, until someone takes it to court, the city can make any decrees they want.

For instance, a high school student in West Virginia sued his school district and won because he didn't want a "non-denominational" prayer said before graduation. Similarly, that kid in California who got the "under God" part of the pledge of allegience declared unconstitutional only got her day in court because she filed a lawsuit. Unless people take a pro-active stance in protecting their own rights, others may trample on them simply because they can.

If you choose not to engage the park evangelist or otherwise lawfully stiffle his ministry, then you are allowing him to impede on your right to enjoy the park in quiet.
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Post by Weasel »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Personally, I am not easily disturbed by other people and like HLD says, I use my freedom of speach back when I feel like it (not very often here, has only happend a few times when I was younger and had an even shorter fuse than I have today.)
At one time, I would have parked and walked back to where they where screaming. I will not deny I have..(had) a bad temper problem. Fable and you have seen me lose my temper in the past and I have tried to change.

I believe it wouldn't be a good idea...at least back a year ago, for me to stop and give them my opinion. Instead, I now go the way of being bothered without a way to fight back. A decision of my own choosing. My windows are tinted and if the person does start the screaming, I will just turn the radio up enough to drown him out of my hearing. I find I feel this is disrespectful of the religion, but I am limited in the actions I can take. My goal is not to show disrespect towards a religion.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by HighLordDave
Have those arrests survived challenges in court? A government can do whatever the hell it wants and pass any laws they want until someone sues them. Without seeing the wording of the ordinance which bars streetcorner preaching, I would be surprised if it would survive a serious court challenge. Still, until someone takes it to court, the city can make any decrees they want.
Can't tell you. It was part of Giuliani's general "cleanup" of NYC which caused a lot of friction with minority communities for a while, until the crime dropped drastically, the tourists flocked in with a lot of money, plenty of retail stores and restaurants opened up, etc. For all that Giuliani's methods may be considered draconian in some quarters, he achieved startling results. If you'd seen NYC before and after his arrival, I think you would agree that the alteration was extraordinary, and mostly for the good. I used to live there; I returned regularly. "The most dangerous city in America" has become a very safe to walk with the kids, and admire the trees.
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by Weasel
At one time, I would have parked and walked back to where they where screaming. I will not deny I have..(had) a bad temper problem. Fable and you have seen me lose my temper in the past and I have tried to change.
I also had a temper problem when I was younger, but since I took it out verbally other people didn't notice as much as if I have taken it out physically. I don't consider myself as having a temper problem know, although I still am a generally short fused type of person.

Honestly Weasel (this is a bit off topic, sorry for that Fable) I have never seen you loose temper in an unacceptable or unfair way...I still think you are being to hard on yourself, perhaps it feels more inside you than it shows. I think your critical and angry posts have been at the same level as mine or Waverly, and I believe few people view me or Wave as having a temper problem here at SYM.

I find I feel this is disrespectful of the religion, but I am limited in the actions I can take. My goal is not to show disrespect towards a religion.
I don't want to show disrespect to other people's religion or political ideologies either, but I feel if they are harassing me, it is personal, ie I disrespect this particular individual, this particular messenger because of his rude and intrusive methods to communicate, but I do not disrespect the ideology in itself, since that particular person is not the whole ideology. I would disrespect a rude, unfair, disturbing neuroscientist as well, without disrespecting the scientific discipline.
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Post by EMINEM »

Originally posted by C Elegans


Much can of course be said in regard to the topic, but a little nitpick: we don't know whether Einstein believed in a god or not, especially not a christian god. He said many things that can be interpreted in both directions, so please do not use him as an example. I know it is common to use Einstein and Hawking to examplify that great physicists who work with physics and the mechanisms of our universe, believe/d in a god. This is not necessarily so, and people need to realise that physicists often use the word "god" not as meaning the christian/muslim or any specific god, but just as meaning "the creator" or "the natural forces". I know you know that the argument "great minds believed in god, so it must be right" is invalid (appeal to authority) but I do think you use it in a valid way in this case (ie logical thinking can result in a person coming to the conclusion that a god exists). Logical is not the same as rational! But please do not use people who we don't know what religion they had, there are plenty other people to use as examples.

Einstein didn't believe in a personal God as revealed in the New Testament (I doubt he even read it; he was, after all, Jewish) but he did hold unswervingly against enormous peer pressure to a belief in an intelligent creator and designer of the universe (a la Genesis 1:1). Since this discussion touches upon logic, how he came to this conviction deserves further mention here.

Apparently, after Einstein published his famous theory in 1915, the astronomer William de Sitter found he had made an error in his calculations, and that the universe was expanding away from its point of origin (later called "The Big Bang"). The discovery disturbed Einstein so much that for a time he included an
imaginary "mathematical constant" to his formula to make the effect of the expanding universe go away. He later stated that this was the biggest error of his entire career.

After Edwin Hubble discovered in 1929 from his measurements
on forty different galaxies that the galaxies were indeed expanding away from each other, Einstein grudgingly abandoned his hypothesis and acknowledged that since the universe had a beginning, it must have a "Beginner" possessed of "supreme reasoning power." In other words, he was convinced of God's existence by the logical implications of the cosmological argument.

I know very little about Hawking (I never mentioned him in the first place), but since you brought him up, I did some research and found that contrary to his conclusions in the "Brief History of Time," where God is left with nothing to do, his own work on singularity theorems establishes that indeed "time has a
beginning," and that through the principal of cause and effect could not have originated from nothing. This pointed clearly to the existence of some agency beyond the dimensions of the universe who created the universe and its dimensions of space and time. His subsequent attempts to find a loophole to the
cosmological argument met with failure, which to his credit he later admitted it in writing. In Hawking's case, the leap from creation ex nilho to creation ex Deo was too great to transcend. If the circumstances surrounding Einstein's own intellectual "Damascene" journey is any indication, however, it certainly wasn't for the lack of sufficient evidence.
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Post by C Elegans »

First of all I clearly want to state to everybody that this is a side discussion MM and I are having, this discussion has no validity whatsoever for the question of whether god exists or not, and it has bearing at all for the question prozelyting. I am sure everybody understands that argumentum ad verecundiam, ie appeal to authority is an invalid argument. References to authorities are only valid if:

1. The authority in question is actually qualified to have an expert opinion on the subject.
2. Experts in the field have a common consensus in the question.
3. The autority in question is not quoted out of context, was joking, was under influence of drugs or psychiatric disease when s/he made the claim you refer to.
4. The reference is an original reference, not only second hand hearsay.

This means:

"Einstein said the velocity of light is the same for all observers in uniform relative motion" is valid since this is part of the theory of relativity and Einstein was an expert on theoretical physics.
"Einstein said eating carrots can cure cancer" is not valid since Einstein was not an expert on diet or oncology

"Einstein said gravity redshift exists" is valid since this is common consensus among experts, and was later demostrated by observation.
"Einstein said black holes does not exist" is not valid, since this in not common consensus among other experts, and observations support that black holes may exist.

"Einstein said 'I am deeply religious man' is not valid since it is taken out of context, the whole passage looks like this:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.
my bold

"In his biography of Einstein, AB Smith wrote Einstein believed in a god" is not valid if no original reference of this exist. AB Smith might have made the story up to sell a few extra copies of the book.

Now I move on to discussing specific people's religions beliefs with MM.

@MM: This was exactly the discussion I didn't want, since we both know "appeal to authority" is an invalid argument anyway. Saying "Einstein believed in a god" has no more validity than saying "Brittney Spears believe in a god". Einsten was a physicist, and an expert on physics - he could not more than Brittney Spears, you, I or anyone else prove or demostrate the existence of a god. I know you didn't mention Hawking I did, because famous scientists like Einstein and Hawking are people who are often exploited for their commercial value and popularity. They both represent the "true genius" in modern society, and and such, some people use arguments like "Aha, you don't believe in god? Einstein believed in god, do you think you are smarter than him?" The invalidity of this argument should be obvious.

However, since MM has demonstrated his liking for the "appeal to autority" argument, ie MM seems to feel that gods existance is more likely because some famous people and well known scientists believe in god, I feel I must go through with this, hopefully to a conclusion. If MM wants to use invalid arguments that is of course his personal choice, but using invalid arguments including factual errors, is something I really ask MM to refrain from.

@MM: the world is full of famous, intelligent people - scientists included - who believe in a god, why don't you use them for your argument instead of people who either don't believe in god, or who we don't know whether they believe or not? You are not strenghtening your cause by using false claims. Use correct claims instead - you risk casting a shadow of doubt over your other, perhaps true statements by mixing them with false ones. You mentioned Newton and Luther among great minds who were also christians, I could give you a long list of other great minds who were/are christian or believe a theistic god but please do not impose religious views on people who were not religious, or people who we do not know whether they are religious or not

Have you ever read the famous chemistry professor Schaefer's lectures from 1994? Schafer makes all the classical mistakes. He is a great chemist, but he is not an expert in mind-reading and he claims he knows a lot of other scientist's beliefs. Please MM, don't use this cheap trick, I know you are a smart guy and a skillful debater and I also sincerely think that you mean well with your attempts to argue for christianity.

Except for the quote above in italics, which is authentic and comes from Einstein's own book "The world as I see it", (Philosophical Library, NY, 1949), here is why should drop Einstein from your list:
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance - but for us, not for God.

Personal letter, 1927
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

Religion and Science", New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930

The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that there is.

"My Credo", speech to the German League of Human Rights, Berlin, 1932

I believe that your opinions about our society are quite reasonable. It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

Personal letter, 1954
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

New York Times, 1955
This does not sound like person who believes in the OT or Judaism, this sounds to me like a person who believes in a spiritual aspect that shows itself through nature but has little to do with human life, nothing to do with moral and rules, and does not give humans eternal life or a life after this earthly one. In other words, it sounds like Pantheism, ie what Fable belives in IIRC.

Whoaa. Sorry for the lenght of this! It seems it's only MM that can draw these huge posts out of me! ;)
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
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C Elegans
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Post by C Elegans »

And while I' at it, regarding Stephen Hawking: It is good @MM that you don't include him in your arguments, I certainly think you should read his works before you draw any conclusions. He has a christian wife and some christian friends, but he himself refuses to answer questions about his personal beliefs or non-beliefs. Since Hawking is alive, we can visit his nice website and find more recent lectures than his books. You are familiar with the famous "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end, it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" from A brief history of time, but as for your claim about him finding no loophole in the cosmological argument, see this lecture:
If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system. It would not be determined by anything outside the physical universe, that we observe.

My bold.
"There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance." - Hippocrates
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